The "former" Christian is... [Archive] - Christian Gamers Alliance Forums

mist_01

02-19-2007, 09:25 AM

Personaly im a northwestern Iowa calvenist, so i strongly believe that there is nothing that can take a Christian away from Christ. I like to quote Romans 8 where it says
"For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."
I believe this means that nothing will ever be able to come between me and my salvation. Therefor i believe that a "former Christian" is either someone who was never saved or someone who God will call back to him before their death.

one2dredd

02-19-2007, 02:28 PM

I have a problem believing the once saved always saved option. I respect your belief in this I am not bashing you in any way. But instead of trying to disprove you I am just going to say this. All that matters in the end is that when you die or when Christ comes for his church is that you love Jesus and you are serving him. If you are doing that than it doesn't matter if it is once saved always saved or you can lose your salvation.

[toj.cc]WildBillKickoff

02-19-2007, 03:23 PM

All that matters in the end is that when you die or when Christ comes for his church is that you love Jesus and you are serving him. If you are doing that than it doesn't matter if it is once saved always saved or you can lose your salvation.

And that's essentially the conclusion that we came to in October when we had this study. :)

The main focus of the study was on how there is Biblical support for both Arminian and Calvinist beliefs, and how the two when properly integrated produce a more clear picture of the character of God. To say one is Calvinist without any consideration of Arminianism is to devalue ourselves, but to say one is Arminian without any consideration of Calvinism devalues God. I believe that both God and man are of utmost value, but that man's value is derived from God. Soooo... I tend to lean toward Calvinism, but I don't commit to any one camp because I think the truth lies somewhere between the extremes.

mist_01

02-19-2007, 07:04 PM

(Again just for discution, not starting argument) Personaly i believe that on my own i could never come to God. I can't see how i on my own could ever choose God without him calling to me. I strongly believe that God has chosen those he will save before the world was created.
"But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.(From Ephesians 2)"
If God chose to save me before i Chose him i don't see him rejecting him just because i choose not to follow him. God saved me despite my sins. I believe he continues to save me despite my sins. Furthermore, if God wants to save me, there is certainly nothing i could do to stop him :) , He's God.
God's love has never been based on my actions (or else i wouldn't be a Christian) and i don't believe it ever will be. God loves me Unconditionally (thankfully).
Anyway those are my thoughts, but i agree, in the end (and now) it will make little difference.

mist_01

02-19-2007, 07:07 PM

Another passage from Ephesians 1 That i use above
"For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight"
and at vs 11
"In him we were also chosen,[e] having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory.

mist_01

02-19-2007, 07:10 PM

TheChad1215

02-20-2007, 02:26 AM

oh, by the way, feel free to argue with me, I love discussion. Besides, if i don't know by beliefs inside and out how can i defend them? (Holy Spirit would do it for me but anyway). So by all means please discus this and anything else i post, i love "arguing".

What about those who aren't saved. It's easy to say that God chose all of us Christians to be saved, but at the same time, you're saying He condemned everyone else. That's why I've never been comfortable with predestination, John Calvin or Augustine. We, as humans, certainly could never have a chance to get to heaven if it weren't for Jesus. (To say otherwise would make his death and rez meaningless.) But I believe that we are still held responsible to turn toward God and accept that grace which he has freely offered us. Those who do are Christians, and those who don't will find out too late they've made a bad decision.

-Chadley

mist_01

02-20-2007, 09:41 AM

I believe that if anyone choose God he would accept them, however, apart from him choosing them i don't believe anyone would. By Sinning in the first place We choose to go away from God. I believe we all had a Choice, but we made it when we sinned. Now it is only by his grace that he has chosen some of us to save from the punishment we Choose for ourselves.

TheChad1215

02-20-2007, 12:04 PM

But you still never answered my first question...

I do agree with you that in sinning we've turned away from God, but to me, one of the most moving things about my personal faith is turning back to God. I'm sure everyone has done it--fallen away from His way for awhile, but then realized how crappy your life is and turned to rush back toward God only to find He's been right behind you the whole time...

Now, that's speaking for those already proven to be the "elect," but I think if it can be proven (and by my own spiritual walk, I think it can) that Christians can turn away from God in sin, but turn back to him for grace and forgiveness, the same must be true for non-believers.

I'd kinda like to know exactly where you stand on the whole thing, mist... I mean, it sounds lame, but there are different levels of predestination. For example, Augustine reasoned that if God is omniscient, he must know who will be saved and who will not, and if he is omnipotent, he must be okay with that. Calvin took it a step further saying that God literally and deliberately chose those people who would make it to heaven. Me, I've always drawn the line at God being able to soften people's hearts (as is seen in the Bible).

But yeah, if you wouldn't mind kinda laying out where you are on the spectrum just so I can better understand how to respond. I never thought the Predestination debate was a friendship-breaker (though, I suppose it is a church-breaker...). Heck, my DAD is a Calvinist! :p Anyway, good talk. Later!

-Chadley

mist_01

02-21-2007, 09:52 AM

I very much believe that God deliberately Chose me. After looking at my life i can see that apart from him i could never have chosen him on my own. I also believe that after God choses someone there is no power on earth, including themselves, that can separate them from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus. I definitely believe we can stray from God but like you said when we come back we will see that he has been behind us the whole time. Btw, thanks for your thoughts, like i said, i love discussing what i believe. When i look at "Choice or Predestination passages" from the bible, i don't see a conflict. Because i am chosen by God, i will chose him and nothing can take me, his child, from him.

mist_01

02-21-2007, 09:58 AM

What it really comes down to for me is this, I can't believe my salvation depends on me in anyway, because then i am without hope of salvation.

mist_01

02-21-2007, 10:00 AM

Another way to look at it, if we stray from God but then realise our lives suck and come back to him, do you think that is your own work or the work of God? If it is your own work that means to me we can "help in our salvation", if it is God calling us back after we choose to leave, do we really have a choise to leave?

one2dredd

03-01-2007, 01:30 PM

Good Points

Cloud G

03-07-2007, 06:26 PM

Your salvation HAS to depend on you. We all have free will. We all choose to believe and trust in God or not. Whether or not God calls you......YOU have to make a choice.....so your salvation does depend on you. It's God's grace that saves us. It's our choice whether we accept that Grace.

mist_01

03-07-2007, 07:49 PM

Thats the other way to look at it :) its not my perspective, but it doesn't really matter in the end, but don't let me stifle discussion :)

Cloud G

03-08-2007, 11:04 PM

lol....like we can really keep a thread on topic in this forum....... :p

Stc95

03-09-2007, 12:24 AM

on... topic... what is this, O N T O P I C? me dont know this things...

RoloX2

04-02-2007, 01:21 AM

Safora

04-02-2007, 06:40 AM

I believe it is possible to renounce your faith and therefore lose your salvation.

Hebrews 6:4-6

4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

mist_01

04-02-2007, 09:16 AM

E. Both/Either

A "former Christian" cold be saved or could never have been saved. There are some who go through the motions, never having believed, and others who are prodigal sons.

I originally thought one could lose one's salvation. Years later, I came to understand that one cannot; it is sealed. I honestly could not explain either argument right now.
I agree. I can't really explain it well (though i have tried :) ) but i know that my salvation is God's work not mine. He has chosen to save me and nothing i can do will make him change his mind or unforgive me.

mist_01

04-02-2007, 09:23 AM

My favoreit verse is Romans 8 where is says that i believe nothing will be able to seperate me from the love of Christ Jesus. I believe this includes myself. On my own i would always choose to stray from God. If God does not prevent me i would leave him for sin at every turn. It is by God's Grace i am saved. I can do nothing that will make him love me any less.

sdenotter

04-02-2007, 11:27 AM

E. Both/Either

A "former Christian" cold be saved or could never have been saved. There are some who go through the motions, never having believed, and others who are prodigal sons.

I originally thought one could lose one's salvation. Years later, I came to understand that one cannot; it is sealed. I honestly could not explain either argument right now.

well you better back yourself up somehow.... cause it looks like what your saying is that after you are a Christian life is a free ride. I personally can not see how that is right. so you "accept" Christ and then as long as you meant it from your heart, you can do what ever you like? i dunno...

Now granted, if you really meant it from your heart, then you wouldn't go off and mess your life up. But please do back this up

Safora

04-02-2007, 02:32 PM

My favorite verse is Romans 8 where is says that i believe nothing will be able to seperate me from the love of Christ Jesus. I believe this includes myself.

Romans 8:37-39

37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

********

I know that is a common verse to explain OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved). I tend to believe it means that nothing outside ourselves can separate us from Christ. In the same way that no one can force us to come to Christ, no one can separate us from Christ.

But, since it is necessary for us to believe to be saved, we are the only ones who can separate ourselves from God. It seems that if we can choose to live for God we can also choose to live separate from him.

2 Corinthians 5:15-17

15 And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.

16 So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!

********

I believe that you must remain in Christ, through faith, in order to be saved.

However, I think that their are very few instances that could separate us from God once we are saved. Many of us have been prodigals at some point in our lives and have returned into the arms of a welcoming Father. God knows our hearts and knows we would return.

But if someone hardenes their hearts to the point that they reject Jesus and his work on the cross, what makes them any different from the unsaved?

For example, blasphemy of the holy spirit is said to be the only unforgivable sin. What if someone who was initially saved, has turned from God to the point that he commits that sin?

Do we then just assume that he was never saved to begin with? Since we cannot see into each others hearts we cannot be certain. Is it possible that he rejected Christ even though he was saved initially? I think it could be. Now will God actually allow that to happen to one of his children? That I don't know. But I believe it is possible.

It is just that there is something about OSAS that strikes me as arrogant/presumptuous. And I cannot help but notice that there are admonitions throughout the bible about not straying, keeping the faith, etc. and I assume they are there for a reason.

This is strictly my opinion FWIW. I am fairly new as a Christian and am always willing to learn. Personally I would love to believe in OSAS, I just keep having doubts.

mist_01

04-02-2007, 06:11 PM

well you better back yourself up somehow.... cause it looks like what your saying is that after you are a Christian life is a free ride. I personally can not see how that is right. so you "accept" Christ and then as long as you meant it from your heart, you can do what ever you like? i dunno...

Now granted, if you really meant it from your heart, then you wouldn't go off and mess your life up. But please do back this up
But thats just it. Christ did give us a free ride. We did not deserve it. Christ gave it to us out of Grace alone. We don't have to earn it. However, agreed that if you have Christ in your life it is impossible to live unchanged. If Christ is in your life he will have an effect and you will want to live you life for him.

RoloX2

04-02-2007, 09:56 PM

But thats just it. Christ did give us a free ride. We did not deserve it. Christ gave it to us out of Grace alone. We don't have to earn it.

Yes, salvation is a "license to sin".

Generally, that's now how it plays out, though.

I love it when non-believers try to thwart the morality of the Bible by saying "So....then....you can, like, accept Christ.....then....go out and murder a bunch of people.....and still go to Heaven?"

"Yes."

<jaw drop...stereotypical pre-conceptions of Christians now destroyed...they are now ready to listen to the message of salvation>

Our deeds have no impact on our salvation...and that is a Very Good Thing for all of us.

mist_01

04-13-2007, 09:17 AM

:) agreed. Our deeds don't matter when it comes to salvation! If we are saved we probably won't go out and murder people since Christ in our lives. However, if we did, we still would be children of God. Our deed are a means of praising God and witnessing to others but they have nothing to do with salvation

ChickenSoup

04-18-2007, 01:51 PM

Yes, salvation is a "license to sin".

Generally, that's now how it plays out, though.

I love it when non-believers try to thwart the morality of the Bible by saying "So....then....you can, like, accept Christ.....then....go out and murder a bunch of people.....and still go to Heaven?"

"Yes."

<jaw drop...stereotypical pre-conceptions of Christians now destroyed...they are now ready to listen to the message of salvation>

Our deeds have no impact on our salvation...and that is a Very Good Thing for all of us.

Mmm, I don't know if they'd react exactly that way, but it's possible if instead of just saying "yes" you said "yes, because they'd be forgiven... just like anyone can."

Or something. I've been running on a lot of caffeine this last week, so I'm out of it.

Wash.

04-27-2007, 10:28 AM

Or perhaps a better answer: IF you were a Christian, you wouldn't WANT to go out and murder a bunch of people.

[toj.cc]WildBillKickoff

04-27-2007, 04:39 PM

Or perhaps a better answer: IF you were a Christian, you wouldn't WANT to go out and murder a bunch of people.

WRONG! There have been many times when I've wanted to lash out and beat someone to... well, I can't really end that statement without something offensive, so use your imagination. When my son is misbehaving, I sometimes have thoughts that involve me doing him harm.

I have a rage inside me that flares up now and then. However, the rage is controlled... not even by the fact that I'm a Christian, but because I realize that I will cause myself more harm by acting on these urges. Being a Christian doesn't take away temptation, it simply makes us more constantly aware of it and it's implications, and gives us an additional strength to fall back on when ours fails... and also gives us a second chance when we inevitably do fail.

sdenotter

04-30-2007, 05:52 PM

Aye... the way I see it, is the Christian knows better, and has strength through Christ, so we would hope he wouldn't go on a murderous rampage... (but you do get the occasional who says God told him to do so.... I'm thinking that may just be an excuse for something deeper though)

Jesus Loves You Lots

10-27-2007, 12:16 AM

my view on this is if u live your life like u can losee ur salvation u never have to worry about if u dont

ppar3566

10-28-2007, 01:59 AM

my view on this is if u live your life like u can losee ur salvation u never have to worry about if u dont

I kind of like this idea. I heard a story of a Jewish man who had his place in front of a fireing squd taken by another man. When asked how it had changed his life he responded that he lived his life in light of the man's sacrifice.

On a side note it seems in consistent to suggest that we can both be given our salvation from God as a free gift and that we are choosen by him for salvation and yet be able to loose this salvation. Could I suggest though that 1st centry people had know problem holding contradiction as equally true. Indeed, being able to happily live with some of the uncertainties of Christianity is one of Gorden Allport's factors of a mature Christian.

Jesus Loves You Lots

10-28-2007, 09:53 PM

i do not think we lose it persay as in god takes it away i think that we give it away and choose something else over it

mist_01

10-29-2007, 01:05 PM

Romans 8:38,39
For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I believe that nothing in the future can take me away from Christ. Nothing. Not even a choice I make.

Legandary Spartan

11-05-2007, 05:42 PM

Stc95

11-05-2007, 07:41 PM

Matthew 8:21
"Not all people who sounds religious are really godly. They may refer to me as 'Lord,' but they still won't enter the Kingdom of Heaven. The decisive issue is is whether they obey my Father in heaven."
I just noticed that it says 'Lord, [COMMA]' as in letter, or adressing...i'll have to check other versions to see if it was a typo

KJV Says "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father whichi s in heaven."

ChickenSoup

11-14-2007, 03:11 PM

Matthew 8:21
"Not all people who sounds religious are really godly. They may refer to me as 'Lord,' but they still won't enter the Kingdom of Heaven. The decisive issue is is whether they obey my Father in heaven."
I just noticed that it says 'Lord, [COMMA]' as in letter, or adressing...i'll have to check other versions to see if it was a typo

It's separating two independent clauses, I believe.

Not all people who sounds religious are really godly. They may refer to me as 'Lord,' but they still won't enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

"They may refer to me as Lord. They still won't enter the Kingdom of Heaven."

Or,

"They may refer to me as Lord, but they still won't enter the Kingdom of Heaven"

Stc95

11-15-2007, 01:41 AM

Ya, what C$ said is probably right. or maybe God is using some fancy puncuation that we will learn in heaven?

mist_01

11-15-2007, 10:23 AM

Ya, what C$ said is probably right. or maybe God is using some fancy puncuation that we will learn in heaven?

Pretty sure it wasn't written in English, however, I am sure our translators knew their grammar.

Durruck

01-24-2008, 07:42 PM

Not sure why this thread showed up on the "new" list, but hey, it made for a good read that I missed before.

In reference to the double... ...Lord, Lord... here, I'd have to look back at my notes, but I'm almost certain that it was intentionally written twice to show emphasis. If you think about the phrase "Lord of lords" it shows that God is above our earthly "lords" (the landholders, essentially)... same thing here - Jesus makes it clear through his words that he's not talking about any old land-owner; he's talking about The Owner.

Stc95

01-24-2008, 11:39 PM

Durruck

01-26-2008, 10:31 AM

From Merriam-Webster:

Main Entry:
1god
Pronunciation:
\ˈgäd also ˈgȯd\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Middle English, from Old English; akin to Old High German got god
Date:
before 12th century

1capitalized : the supreme or ultimate reality: as a: the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshipped as creator and ruler of the universe b Christian Science : the incorporeal divine Principle ruling over all as eternal Spirit : infinite Mind
2: a being or object believed to have more than natural attributes and powers and to require human worship; specifically : one controlling a particular aspect or part of reality
3: a person or thing of supreme value
4: a powerful ruler

There's a few different lines you could easily look at...

First, definition 2: Someone with more than normal abilities. Writers may look at Homer, Chaucer, or Shakespeare as "gods" of writing. Also contained in this definition would probably be the Greek & Roman gods (Zeus, et al), Baal, Asherah, et al of the Bible.

Definition 3: Person or thing of supreme value. People let money, fame, and all sorts of other stuff be the thing that they prize more than all else, and their only focus in life is to get more of it. If my only goal in life is to collect the most paperclips, I've potentially let paperclips become the "god of my life".

Definition 4: A powerful ruler. Caesar, Hitler... great military leaders often let success and power go to their heads. They think that they are the thing that deserves worship.

So what does it mean that our God is the God of gods? Our God made everything and is in control of it all. So regardless of which definition or use of god you choose here - He rules over them all.

TheChad1215

01-26-2008, 01:25 PM

That makes sense.. i think i could live with that answer.

if no one minds me stealing this thread for now.. what does it mean when God is the God of gods. Does that mean that there is in fact more than one "god" and that He is the main one. or is just saying that He is the true god and above everyone else' false gods.

I also would have to go back to some old notes (freshman year old), but I do remember my Religion prof down here at Baylor (and I know he's not the only one who thinks this) said something about the ancient Hebrews being monotheistic in the sense that the only God they worshiped was Yahweh, but that they didn't entirely count out the existence of other people's gods. The point to them was that out God was THE God of gods, the most powerful, omniscient and the only one deserving of their devotion. This is played out in the scene in Egypt where it was virtually the gods of the Egyptians (Ra, Mut, Nut, etc) against the God of the Hebrews, and of course, everyone knows how our snake ate their snake.

Anyway, I wish I had my notes to see exactly how that theory was developed cause I can't remember if it actually holds any basis besides just kinda fitting in with the story. Doesn't really have much to do with our faith because we all know there's only one God.

-Chadley

Durruck

01-27-2008, 04:49 PM

n the sense that the only God they worshiped was Yahweh, but that they didn't entirely count out the existence of other people's gods.

Correct, in fact, there are a few places in the Bible where people from other nations acknowledge our God. From what I've read, it seems like it was a matter of courtesy, not true belief in other gods.

David's Sling

05-10-2008, 10:17 PM

There is only one true God as we define the word, but there are spiritual beings out there who would wish us to see them as gods. These are most likely the more powerful of the demons that followed after Satan. There is an occurence of an angel ( Gabriel, I believe) fighting one such being, the demon Baal, when trying to deliver a message to one of God's people. This demon was worshiped as a God in pagan societies. the term "Baal worship" should be familiar to a few here. He had appatently used his spiritual nature to deceive people into thinking he was a god to be worshipped. In modern culture, spirit worship has fallen from favor (though it looks to be coming back slowly). Instead, objects like money, toys, cars, stocks, etc. can become our gods if we are not careful.

That seems a fairly clear presentation of my views on this issue. Please corrent any minor mistakes as to names, etc., as I was only quoting from memory.

[edit:for clarity and spelling]