should we bring MF back from the dead?

[ChickenSoup]

MF may have been nerfed by the thing where you only get 10 minions per necro, but someone (I forget who, it was DZwart or Paul or someone... can't remember) proposed that if we had 2 groups of 3, each with a resmer, saccer, and MM, we could still get 20 minions.

So what do you think?

[Stc95]

hm.. i read on Anet that main Necros went poping up very often in HoH, so Anet is trying to balance it out. I wouldnt object to it and Anet wouldnt either.

[ChickenSoup]

Like we ever cared what ANet thought of our builds. Sheesh.

:rolleyes:

Anyway I don't seem to be gathering much support :P

[one2dredd]

I might work but you will never win the Halls with it I think. I could be wrong though.

[[toj.cc]WildBillKickoff]

The big weakness to MF was always SS, which got nerfed to pieces with the Nightfall update.

It might be worth a second look.

EDIT: Let me amend that a bit after looking at the actual phrases used by ANet in their update, quoted below:
Melee monsters are more intelligent about keeping themselves spread out, so that they don’t put themselves into a position where they’re highly susceptible to AoE attacks.
Same applies to henchies. I have not noticed the changes as of yet, but a golem, a few horrors and fiends plus Winnowing and maybe a QZ (to kill enemy energy management) on the rezzers would make this option a viable HoH build. Rezzers would also have to be healers for HoH to not get Ghostly killed.

[ChickenSoup]

Sounds interesting... Time for DZ, Dredd, and Pastori to put their heads together! :P

[dorkelf]

The other night we experimented with a single MM, Saccer and Resmer team, plus three VIM trappers. The idea behind that build is to distract and delay with the trappers while the factory gets built, and then the whole army rushes the alter at the last minute to cap it. I'm very convinced that this type of build can cap VERY well, with all those minions plus traps hitting everything that's on the alter.

Even though we weren't up to spec (lvl 19 necro, for example), we managed to cap the alter twice before I figured out we were not very survivable once we capped it and we needed to delay longer before capping. If we'd had the benefit of heal party (which the resmer can do) and a maxed-out aegis (a 55 monk could manage that), we would have been better off. Not sure how long we can hold the alter even when up to spec with this build, but it really isn't necessary to be able to hold it to win the Halls if it is capped at the right time.

Paul

[dorkelf]

WildBillKickoff;191539']I have not noticed the changes as of yet, but a golem, a few horrors and fiends plus Winnowing and maybe a QZ (to kill enemy energy management) on the rezzers would make this option a viable HoH build. Rezzers would also have to be healers for HoH to not get Ghostly killed.

Great point about QZ. One of the things we have to worry about is if they have monks to keep their hero alive on the alter. QZ, NR and Tranquility could all interfere with enemy monks as well as spikes without hampering us much, but I think QZ has the greatest effect.

Paul

[ChickenSoup]

Awesome... tell me how it goes once you test it out and stuff

[slalomdms]

The other night we experimented with a single MM, Saccer and Resmer team, plus three VIM trappers. The idea behind that build is to distract and delay with the trappers while the factory gets built, and then the whole army rushes the alter at the last minute to cap it. I'm very convinced that this type of build can cap VERY well, with all those minions plus traps hitting everything that's on the alter.

Paul

LOL minion factory was my favorite set up back in the day when we were using it for GvG.I was thinking that if we did bring MF back it would be a good capping build. There is a few new minion skills that came out with night fall i was wondering if those would be good to add or not?

[ChickenSoup]

That and "bone minions" where you raise 2 lvl _ minions... I just noticed that one a few days ago

[[toj.cc]WildBillKickoff]

Rezmer = Me/Mo, correct? We always wonder what to do with those other skill slots? Make one of em Blackout. Rezmer runs in and blacks out a monk, then you cap.

[MaidMirawyn]

Oh, thanks, Pastori. Offering Maid Mirawyn up as a sacrifice, are we?

[Atown]

dude hook me up i love MF, msg me on x-fire when ur doin it

[DZwart]

As the saccer the other night, I might recommend another permenant resurrect instead of vengeance. Veng only lasted 30 seconds and I felt entirely useless once the minion horde was built. Resurrection Chant would work since the resmer should always have more health than the 55 saccer. However, the cast time would be just under 4 seconds at 16 fast casting. That's pretty long compared to most others. Is there another recharging rez that brings target back at full health?

Also, for the saccer(s) a second weapon or set with +60hp might be a good idea so you get your health up to 110 after the permenant rez.

[MaidMirawyn]

Resurrection Chant would work since the resmer should always have more health than the 55 saccer.
One would hope so. :) And yeah, I felt useless, too; all I had was interrupts...which I kept misfiring, since I was so tired. :o

And as mentioned earlier, heal party would be great for the mes; I had a self-heal mes skill that could be dropped to make room for it. And since I was using an elite for my interrupt, that could be freely switched.

Don't know if MF can win, but I'm more than willing to give it a try!

[one2dredd]

How about a Mes/Rit? oh nvm Rit rez would bring you to full health everytime. Well maybe to Mesmers one Monk one Rit? Maybe take 3 Paragon/W for healing and Damage? Would be a tougher build to kill use the mesmers to shut down the other teams monks. While the Paragons hit em with spears and keep the group healed? Or maybe 2 Paragon and one Monk. A Paragon healer heals like a Prot monk and wen you use spells and skills you are healed as well and Paragon Warriors can use Shield up all the time and keep everyone with a +20 Armor bonus.

[ChickenSoup]

Don't know if MF can win, but I'm more than willing to give it a try!

Should we rez MF or simply exploit its corpse to make another minion? hmm

[Stc95]

ok im getting the gist of this...but i cant figure out what MF stands for. also the build would be nice :D

[ChickenSoup]

Minion Factory!

[dorkelf]

The Minion Factory requires three characters:

One 'Rezmer', a Mesmer/Monk with maxed out fast casting and resurrect skills.

One 'Minion Master', who creates the minions and helps keep them (and himself) alive.

One 'Saccer', the character whose corpse is used (over and over again) to create the minions. The saccer uses some skill like Blood is Power (there are many other possibilities) to sacrifice health, basically killing himself. The best saccers are 55 monks or 55 necros, because with only 55 health its a lot quicker and easier to get to zero. :D

The other evening we filled out the rest of the build with three VIM trappers, R/W with Victory is Mine (elite).

Paul

[ChickenSoup]

Wow, when someone calls a target, and the trappers run out with 20 minions in close pursuit... o.0 what a spike

[dorkelf]

Wow, when someone calls a target, and the trappers run out with 20 minions in close pursuit... o.0 what a spike

Well, its only 10 minions as we have it now...but you got me thinking, we could experiment with switching out one of the trappers for another minion master, which would allow us to make 20 minions. Problem is, with only two trappers I'm not sure if we can hold off opposing groups long enough to make the full army, or gain much benefit from the traps and healing springs. Might be worth trying, but I think we'll probably find that the current configuration of ten minions including a flesh golem plus three trappers can provide damage o'plenty for the purpose of capping.

Paul

[dorkelf]

We had a good general discussion last night about MF. Though Dredd is pessimistic about its potential, he remains gracefully accomodating of my somewhat stubborn optimism about it. Honestly, I still think MF/VIM with the factory and three VIM trappers can consistently cap and win at halls in the current playing environment, if it is set up right. Like any build it has its problems, which we considered very thoroughly in our discussions. The biggest seems to be the danger of an opposing SS necro killing all the minions quick. (Though SS necros used to never be seen in HoH I think they'll probably become more common with the popularity of the dervish.) Also the group is really incapable of recovering from the loss of the necro and minions...once they're gone its over. I think this lack of survivability is what bothers Dredd most because, of course, all it takes is one loss due to rushing the alter too early or losing the necro, and the long march to the Hall is over.
However, skipping still seems to happen a whole lot...and also, I think with practice and fine-tuning survivability can be somewhat improved. So my opinion right now is still that I expect MF/VIM can be a relatively easy and very effective way to direct a lot of damage onto the alter without the need for complex timing or coordination. I also am still inclined to stick with trappers in the group too - they are effective not only at causing both damage and conditions, but they are uniquely adept at making opposing groups reluctant to rush us before the minions are baked.

That isn't to say that in the end, when we get it up to spec, it is definitely going to work out for us. But if nothing else, it can be something fun and relatively original to experiment with.

Paul

[slalomdms]

*Kinda off topic*
I just though it would be neat to see a picture of us back in the day running this, as you can see we have the old cape.

http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/5889/minionfactorynq4.png

As you can see Halonic is the saccer and I think the rezzmer is Death. I remember having more minions then this when we did this in GvG.

http://img158.imageshack.us/img158/5878/minionfactory2dg5.png

[dorkelf]

Actual forensic evidence of Halonic playing PvP!

Paul

[dorkelf]

I was thinking next time we should try bringing 2 minion masters, 2 trappers, saccer and rezmer. The 'secondary' minion master would be a N/Mo, with protection skills like reversal of fortune and aegis, and on the necro side he/she would have blood of the master, the two 'special' golems (flesh and that new one), and maybe Verata's aura for picking up the army if the other necro falls.
We'd have to sacrifice having the Paragon to do it but with protection skills we'd be making up for that partially. I think its worth trying - we always found in the past that having two minion masters really took the pressure off the group for everything to hinge on the survival of the one.

Paul

[DZwart]

Another revalation from Wednesday night after we tried degen for a while, we switched over to MF for a little while. A longbow on the MM helps send in the minions while keeping the MM a little further away.

Assuming the saccer is a necro, we could try to fit Verata's Aura, with low death levels into the skill bar as a backup as well. However, the saccer is pretty pretty prone to death once we go in.

We seem to be enjoying doing the minion factory a bit lately and usually manage a few wins, unless anyone has any objections, I think I'll plan on going with MF again tonight, no separate thread to announce this though.

[dorkelf]

Another update for those who breathlessly follow the further adventures of the SoE minion factory...

Last night I experimented with bringing a second necro...the idea wasn't to build a second minion army (not enough corpses for two necros to do that) but simply to raise a flesh golem and maybe one or two more bone fiends and to add a bit more to the other team's confusion about exactly which Necro they should be attacking. And, of course, to help keep all the minions healed. I rounded out the build with death magic damage rather than protection healing I started out with.

We also ended up dropping down to a single trapper and Dredd brought his Koss for a little more damage and conditions-dealing.

I think in the end the group was happy with how it was working out, but still I think the jury is out on exactly how this build should be constructed beyond the three-man factory. I have remained in favor of trappers and it seems to me that we were at our most powerful and effective the other night when we had two trappers working together along with Dredd's paragon. We were good too last night but I just don't know how effective a single trapper can really be overall. Perhaps two trappers and a Koss or real-player warrior/ranger is better than having a backup necro. If anyone else has any ideas about what we might try, I'd love to hear them. Just please keep in mind when making suggestions what this build is, and what it isn't. It is a build centered around capping, not survivability - some degree of survivability is necessary of course, but the main idea is to direct massive, sudden, quick damage onto the opposing ghostly hero on the altar, either overpowering his healing and protection in the process or distracting and attacking those who are providing the healing and protection. When we manage to take out the opposing ghostly we'll cap more often than not. But need to keep the mm alive to get that far, and we need to stay alive during the faster non-altar runs where there isn't as much time to make an army. So far opposing spikes, particularly meteor showers, particularly on those shorter runs, have remained our biggest problem.

Paul

[ChickenSoup]

Those pics are awesome.

1. HALONIC IN PVP?!?!
2. Look at all those minions...

[slalomdms]

I dont know what you guys have been running latley with MF, cause i have not been able to get on latley. But i was wondering if it would be a good idea to bring winnowing or favorable winds? I was thinking that this would add to all the minions attacks. good idea?



1. HALONIC IN PVP?!?!
2. Look at all those minions...

Actually it was GvG, and if i do recall correctly we won a few matches with this build.

[one2dredd]

Sadly Favorable winds does not efect Minions

[slalomdms]

Sadly Favorable winds does not efect Minions

Darn does winnowing affect minions?

[ChickenSoup]

Actually it was GvG, and if i do recall correctly we won a few matches with this build.

I generalize all combat related to people fighting other people as PvP.

Speaking of GvG, when's the last time we did that? All I've seen is HoH, HoH, HoH...

[Stc95]

Speaking of GvG, when's the last time we did that? All I've seen is HoH, HoH, HoH...
I see no problem...



(besides, you cant get fame in GvG)

[ChickenSoup]

So? I'm so stinking bored with HoH.

Zaishen. Then people in the Underworld. Then the Broken Bridge (or sometimes it skips right to BB). And then the next one, and sometimes, if we're lucky with these new builds, the next oen, and then we all die, all so we can get 6 fame over a period of an hour and a half.

(don't correct me with "NO NO YOU GET __ FAME", you get my point whether the figures are accurate or not)

[dorkelf]

I'm a strong advocate of GvG myself and its true that GvG was where we did our old minion factory. I think MF might still work there, if it is optimized for that much longer format instead of focusing on a single devastating altar attack.

The rub about GvG is that the matches run much longer, so people tend to get upset when we lose after all that time and effort. In HoH if we lose, we can tweak if necessary and go back out, and eventually we tend to pick up at least a fame or two. In GvG we have to put more thought and effort into what we're doing before we go out - which always makes people impatient - and then if we go out and lose, our rating goes down and nobody walks away with any reward.

With that said, we do have a serious PvP group now, and I think it SHOULD be representing our guild from time to time in GvG just as soon as we develop and refine a build that can work well there. Like degen, for instance. In the meantime, if anyone has a good idea for a MF variant that would work well in GvG, please share it.

Paul

[one2dredd]

Yes I plan to be very active in GvG. It is my goal once we have a decent build working we will be GvGing once we start winning the Hall of Heroes once we win there a few times We will begin to shift our focus to the GvG aspect a little more. I feel we have to have a decent group of people there so we wont lose all the time and get everyone burned out in GvG.

[DZwart]

Another thing that has seemed to help the minion factory is the inclusion of the Sambling Horrors as well as including both Shambling/Golem (melee) and fiends (ranged) in the horde. This splits up the targets a little and offers new minions that cause bleeding when the first dies.

I know we all like trapping, but I do think the extra necro helped both in healing/controlling the minions as well as confusion for the opposing team. "Which necro is MM?!?" What if all 3 open spots were N/Mo and did blood or death primary and heal or protect secondary. Kind of a mini-spike to soften or finish off a target and support the team as needed or take over the minions if the MM goes down (Verata's Aura lasts pretty long even with no points in death). The resmer then could switch to an interrupt/e-denial.

[ChickenSoup]

If we waited in GvG for like 3 necros to make minions.. that's (count 'em) 30 minions... but it'd take a while.