Is Suicide The Ultimate Sin?

[sdenotter]

An interesting thought.... curious to know what you all think about it... my dad preached about this a couple weeks ago and it really triggered my thinking

[[toj.cc]WildBillKickoff]

We willingly sin against God all the time. If I die in a car crash due to me speeding, I still die in sin. I think suicide is only slightly different-- people do it because they feel they can no longer bear life for whatever reason, not out of malice (in most cases). I feel pity for those who choose to end their own life, and feel that one action we take cannot overshadow the ultimate action taken by God.

[ChickenSoup]

No, the ultimate sin is blasphemy against the Spirit--the only sin that cannot be forgiven

Matthew 12:31 (NIV)
And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.

or at least that's what I feel is the ultimate sin because it cannot be forgiven (although I'm not sure what it is, exactly)

[Wash.]

Well, looks like C$ took my response, that is exactly what i would have said. In essence, the ultimate and unforgiveable sin is not believing in God.

I would like someone who opposes this view to post their thoughts and biblical support for their belief.

[mist_01]

like you can see by my posts in "the former" article, i firmly believe in predestination. I believe that nothing i do affects my salvation. Doing good is only out of gratitude, not out of need to earn my salvation. I believe i could be a serial killer, world dictator, and die by nuking the world, and still go to heaven. Now, since i have Christ in my life, i could never do those things so it is a kind of pointless illustration, but if i did, God has already forgiven me. My salvation has nothing to do with my actions. My actions can act as evidence of Christ in my life, but they do not affect my salvation.

[Hescominsoon]

I think it is judgmental on our part to say suicide is the ultimate sin. What matters is if the person is saved or not. irregardless of how they die..if you aren't saved you ae going to hell..if you are you're going to heaven.

[Wash.]

I forgot to mention - but I think suicide is one of the most selfish sins. IF sin could be given a measure of selfishness - what I mean to say is that taking one's life doesn't do as much damage to them as it does to those around them, those who love them. They aren't taking their own life themselves so much as taking their life away from everyone around them - for purely selfish reasons. No one can say "I hate myself, therefore I'm going to kill myself." In reality, they love themselves to the extent that they are only thinking of themselves. Very narcissistic if you ask me....

[Stc95]

i was always under the impression that killing ur self led to hell, and the reason was cause God gave us the gift of life, so we destroy that gift... and thats mean.

anyway, just my 2 cents...

[Cloud G]

Isn't all sin the same in God's eyes? There's a verse about it....i just can't find it now. But it pretty much says all sin is SIN and separates you from God. Well....wait....now that i think about it......sexual sin is the worst. All other sin is outside the body, while immoral sex is inside.

[Jawsofwar]

If you slit your wrists and kill yourself you are basically saying to God that he shouldn't have given you life. Now are they going to hell is another story. I won't be the one to judge; God will judge them not me. There are many different forms of suicide.

Now lets say I am working for the military and I volunteer to do a "suicide" mission. I am informed that that chances to survive are pretty much nil but what I am about to do might win the war and save many lives in the process. Such as the storming a heavily defended beach head in normandy during ww2 where your chances for survival were slim at best. I have respect for those who go down "fighting." Now lets take an arab who was taught at an early age that westerners were evil etc. He joins a terrorist group and blows himself up while near a school and kills a bunch of kids in the process. I don't have any respect for that obviously but there is alot of disturbing propaganda that comes out of that area that brainwashes people like these.

All we got to do is worry about our own spiritual lives and help the people we know.

[ChickenSoup]

I don't believe in predestination because that would mean that God condemned many people to hell without a choice...

I do believe that all sins are equal, with the exception of blasphemy against the spirit as you can see in Matthew 12:31

[Cloud G]

But you have to separate suicide, and giving up your life for another. Both are suicide.....but one is for yourself...the other is for another. Which is the great sign of love for another.

[Wash.]

What if all men were naturally headed to Hell....then wouldn't it be the grace of God to save whom He chose because HE is God?

[mist_01]

true, but thats not usually viewed as suicide

[mist_01]

posting at the same time as me, hardly fair :P

[mist_01]

I don't believe in predestination because that would mean that God condemned many people to hell without a choice...


However, i believe we did have a choice, but we chose to listen to Satan and eat the forbidden fruit. Therefore our race chose hell over Christ. However, by his grace God has saved some of from the fate we Chose for ourselves with adam.

[Wash.]

I KNEW YOU WOULD!! HEHE

[mist_01]

I'm going to go sulk now :mad: , jkd, im going to go eat :D

[Wash.]

I just gone done eating. Yay for God predestining bacon cheeseburgers to be so delicious.

[Stc95]

*head esploades*

MINION DUST!!! WOO!


ya this is over my head, silly Bible studiers... make us people reading it look bad.

so good luck on ur lil discussion! i will be playing GW =D

[Wash.]

aw froshie, you're smarter than you try to give yourself credit for.

[mist_01]

The thing is tho, when it all ends, none of it will matter, all that matters is if you knew Christ and love him. Regardless weather you believe in predestination or choise, it all amounts to the same thing, Eternity with Christ! And what more could we ask for? (Grammer freeks, forgive me for putting a subordinate clause by it's self, i know it is a fragment. However, if you considered Eternity with Christ an interjection... Anyway, i hate Grammer so figure it out yourself :P)

[Stc95]

(Grammer freeks, forgive me for putting a subordinate clause by it's self, i know it is a fragment. However, if you considered Eternity with Christ an interjection... Anyway, i hate Grammer so figure it out yourself :P)


at least you know what you did...

[mist_01]

lol, ive always been good at grammer, but i hate it because i have never seen the point in learning it. So what if i know it is an appositive clause, if i can use it correctly i can call it a verb and you would never know the difference when you read it. (still can't spell tho)

[Wash.]

learn greek - then you'll learn the art of grammar without sentence order.

[TheChad1215]

And what more could we ask for?

I haven't gotten in trouble for that since high school. Now it's just style! :p

-Chadley

[Jawsofwar]

I am confused on where this thread is going now? hehe

[ChickenSoup]

However, i believe we did have a choice, but we chose to listen to Satan and eat the forbidden fruit. Therefore our race chose hell over Christ. However, by his grace God has saved some of from the fate we Chose for ourselves with adam.

But why wouldn't He save everyone?

[[toj.cc]WildBillKickoff]

But why wouldn't He save everyone?

Because some people inherently don't want to be saved.

For some folks, the thought of bowing down and worshipping anything or anyone would be the worst torture imaginable. God allows those who are this way to choose to be absent from His presence-- this is the most loving, compassionate thing He can do for those who reject Him. As to whether the flames are literal or figurative, that's up for debate, but it would be awful to have to spend eternity somewhere where you are forced to worship someone you don't believe in or don't want to.

[ChickenSoup]

I dunno. I'm still for free will.

[ChickenSoup]

there's a debate on this at ccgr (http://www.ccgr.org/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=2022&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0)

[mist_01]

WildBillKickoff;212486']Because some people inherently don't want to be saved.

For some folks, the thought of bowing down and worshipping anything or anyone would be the worst torture imaginable. God allows those who are this way to choose to be absent from His presence-- this is the most loving, compassionate thing He can do for those who reject Him. As to whether the flames are literal or figurative, that's up for debate, but it would be awful to have to spend eternity somewhere where you are forced to worship someone you don't believe in or don't want to.

i would disagree. i think we all inherently don't want to be saved. Nor do i believe that God's election is based on what we do, or what he knows we will do. "for it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God. not by works, so that no one can boast." Ephesians 2:8-9
I do not believe that God chooses us because he knows we would want to be saved. There are plenty of people, that if they know the Bible was true, they would want to be saved, but they aren't saved. No, i believe that nothing we could do or would do can ever impress God or set us out from the rest of the human race. As to why God would not choose everyone, ask him, the Bible does not say why Jesus did not come to save everyone, and i won't presume to know the mind of Christ. (because God certainly could have said, ok, since Jesus died everyone is now saved.)

[Cloud G]

But...God did say that (in a manner of speaking)

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life"

Those two words don't mean just a few speacial people. They mean everyone everywhere.

[mist_01]

But...God did say that (in a manner of speaking)

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life"

Those two words don't mean just a few speacial people. They mean everyone everywhere.

But i believe i never would believe in Jesus had he not come into my life first.

[Wash.]

Hmm, i'm not sure how John 3:16 applies to the argument. Unless you mean to say that Jesus' death on the cross DID save everyone, afterall "God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved." (John 3:17) So, now are we to say that Jesus' death was meant to save everyone, and condemn no one?

or perhaps we are debating limited atonement here - that is to say, Jesus' death only covers the elect. Which is a topic I run in circles on. Mist could give you the Calvinist view of it - as for the opposing view - well, I'm not sure? In any case, the fact is, Jesus died and we believe. If we chose to believe, then so be it. If God chose us, then glory to God! I honestly don't care which way it happened, either way God is above me and I am below Him.

[TheChad1215]

This is very similar (if not the same) to the discussion we were having in the "Former Christian" thread.

I, personally, stand closer to C$ and freewill. The closest I've been able to reason in terms of Predestination is similar to what Pastori said about people not being saved because they don't want to be. And that goes into the whole If God knows everything, then He knew who would and would not accept Him. Soooo His grace is for those who knew from the beginning would accept Him.

Here's where I can't believe that God chose us and that was that. (And this is not my construction, I'm taking it straight out of John Eldredge's The Sacred Romance.) And ironically, Mist, you've already mentioned it...

(because God certainly could have said, ok, since Jesus died everyone is now saved.)

I think the fact that God didn't do something like this is very powerful. It's true, He could have said, "Why you stupid humans messing everything up. You know what? *poof* There, now you are all Christians. Be good." And that would have solved alot of problems. JUST! (and I think this is important) Just as He could have literally forbidden Adam and Eve to eat the fruit in the garden.

But He didn't. Throughout time, God has given people the choice to follow Him. Yes, He chose the people of Israel to be His people, but never did He stop them when they turned their back on Him. There is something incredible about our God that sets Him apart from everyone else's. And it's not that He chose us rather than visa versa (as has been mentioned), but that He wants a true, honest, romantic loving relationship with Him. And that's exactly what Eldredge is writing about.

And because this relationship between God and man is, in popular terms, a love story, there are certain things which must be true, one of which is relevant to this discussion, and that is it must be a two-way relationship. What that means is that God wants a relationship with every person who has ever lived, and we as humans decide if we are willing to accept it.

The point is that God could have forced everyone into a relationship with Him. He has that power for us to be his robots. But He didn't, and because of that I think it is safe to assume He likewise does not call some into that same kind of relationship in which we have no power to accept or refuse. To me, that kind of relationship seems hollow just as husbands marrying wives against their will.

Remember we are the bride of Christ. What good is a one-way marriage? Sorry, I type alot. I actually spared you.

-Chadley

[one2dredd]

Thanks Chad I think I agree with you on this. Very well written.

[mist_01]

Mist could give you the Calvinist view of it

:D that i could :D

[Wash.]

As a side note, please understand I am indifferent on the issue - I haven't chosen a side yet because I don't know. I'll argue for both, hehe! Frustrating to think about, starts me thinking about philosophical stuff.

[ChickenSoup]

I, personally, stand closer to C$ and freewill.

have a minion sandwich!

But anyway, I'd like to note that what I stand by, free will, is just my opinion and I'm keeping an open mind on the issue.

[Manyik]

http://www.inplainsite.org/html/none_should_perish.html interesting article.

Rho

[RoloX2]

A successful suicide would be the ultimate sin. "Ultimate" means "final" and nothing more.

Is suicide a cardinal sin? No.

Precision with words is important; many incorrect beliefs/conclusions stem from imprecise language.


i was always under the impression that killing ur self led to hell,

That is Catholic doctrine, not biblical.

[RoloX2]

If you slit your wrists and kill yourself you are basically saying to God that he shouldn't have given you life.

We can--and do--say that without killing ourselves. Just like adultery, the sin is not contingent upon the completion of the deed. (Matthew 5:28)

Spirit of Elijah you say? Elijah "had enough" and wanted his life to end. (1 Kings 19)

Moses felt his burden was too heavy with no end in sight and demanded that G-d end his life. (Numbers 11:10)

Jonah was optimistic in chapter 2, but suicidal in chapter 4.

Then there's Job...


Now lets say I am working for the military and I volunteer to do a "suicide" mission. I am informed that that chances to survive are pretty much nil but what I am about to do might win the war and save many lives in the process. Such as the storming a heavily defended beach head in normandy during ww2 where your chances for survival were slim at best. I have respect for those who go down "fighting." Now lets take an arab who was taught at an early age that westerners were evil etc. He joins a terrorist group and blows himself up while near a school and kills a bunch of kids in the process. I don't have any respect for that obviously but there is alot of disturbing propaganda that comes out of that area that brainwashes people like these.

Both, the American and the Arab in this scenario are noble. Both are dying for a cause they believe is just and both believe they are taking the right course of action. The only difference is that one is misguided. Christ died for both. (Romans 14:14)

[RoloX2]

I forgot to mention - but I think suicide is one of the most selfish sins. IF sin could be given a measure of selfishness - what I mean to say is that taking one's life doesn't do as much damage to them as it does to those around them, those who love them. They aren't taking their own life themselves so much as taking their life away from everyone around them

That whole assertion is selfish and self-contradictory.

You cannot condemn somebody for 'not thinking of others' when said others are obviously not thinking of him and only of themselves, yet, they call him selfish. This, in turn, furthers the suicidal person's belief that "*I* don't matter" and therefore the death would largely be inconsequential.

I cannot believe how popular the appalling thought, "You killed yourself; how can you do this to me?" is.

"How can you do this to me?" is for someone who stole your cat, not who ended his own life.

[RoloX2]

No one can say "I hate myself, therefore I'm going to kill myself."

Really?

In reality, they love themselves to the extent that they are only thinking of themselves. Very narcissistic if you ask me....

Absurd.

Do you condescend because you know someone who attempted/comitted suicide and resent them or just because you have no idea why a person would commit such an act? Or is it that you, yourself have been suicidal but couldn't commit to such finality and the "holier than thou" defence is preferable to feeling like a coward?

These types of attitudes give a suicidal person the go-ahead. The uncompassionate debase a person struggling as a narcissist/freak/weak/selfish/coward/worthless, which validates the person's hopelessness and confirms that there is no way out. Besides, if those around them aren't concerned when they are living, what difference could it make when they are dead?

[RoloX2]

For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

Ephesians 6:12



For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 8:38

[Stc95]

i think someone wants to increase his post count. 5 in a row, that has to be a new record..

[Safora]

Saying that the one who comitts suicide is selfish shows a lack of understanding. Someone who is at that point in their lives is desperate. They have no other answers. They cannot stop the pain. They feel unloved, unworthy, worthless. They cannot fathom that they may cause others pain by their death. If they do not feel valued in their life, then how can they believe that their death would matter to anyone?

Do you consider one who is in extreme physical pain selfish for being unable to focus on anything else? Do you fault them for wanting the pain to stop, even if it means their death. Emotional pain is just as real.

I think people blame the victim when someone suicides because they need to clear their own consience. They don't want to have to ask themselves if they had done all they could to help this person before it happened. There are many times no one could have known. But there are just as many when it is obvious there is a problem and people look the other way.



More thoughts to come...

[RoloX2]

i think someone wants to increase his post count. 5 in a row, that has to be a new record..

Is there a prize for the highest score or something? :eek:

pro·jec·tion http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/premium.gif http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pnghttp://cache.lexico.com/g/d/speaker.gif (https://secure.reference.com/premium/login.html?rd=2&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdictionary.reference.com%2Fbrowse%2 Fprojection) /prəˈdʒɛkhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngʃən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[pruh-jek-shuhhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1.a projecting or protruding part. 2.the state or fact of jutting out or protruding. 3.a causing to jut or protrude. 4.the act, process, or result of projecting. 5.Cartography. a systematic construction of lines drawn on a plane surface representative of and corresponding to the meridians and parallels of the curved surface of the earth or celestial sphere. 6.Photography. a.the act of reproducing on a surface, by optical means, a remote image on a film, slide, etc. b.an image so reproduced. 7.the act of visualizing and regarding an idea or the like as an objective reality. 8.something that is so visualized and regarded. 9.calculation of some future thing: They fell short of their projection for the rate of growth. 10.the act of communicating distinctly and forcefully to an audience. 11.Psychology. a.the tendency to ascribe to another person feelings, thoughts, or attitudes present in oneself, or to regard external reality as embodying such feelings, thoughts, etc., in some way. b.Psychoanalysis. such an ascription relieving the ego of a sense of guilt or other intolerable feeling. 12.the act of planning or scheming. 13.Alchemy. the casting of the powder of philosophers' stone upon metal in fusion, to transmute it into gold or silver.

[mist_01]

i think someone wants to increase his post count. 5 in a row, that has to be a new record..
nope, ive done more than that :)

[The Mighty Gerbil]

On freewill and predestination I actually believe in both. I don't believe the concepts are opposite, only based on perspective. Here is part of my theory on the duality of God and Man: God starts a ball rolling down a hill. To the ball (Man) it is not being held, manipulated or controlled once it leaves God's hand. Neither is the ball aware of the one who started it rolling (although it may come to believe in him later). To it only it's actions and the inevitable (but deniable) act of rolling down the hill (life) effect it thus to itself it appears to have free will. To God who knows all the factors about the ball, the hill and rolls perfectly he can put the ball anywhere he wants it. In a larger sense this can be applied to the creation of the whole universe as he would only have to start the ball rolling ,but, having absolute knowledge could create everything to his will by one perfect act (akin to a very large game of pool or dominoes :p). Thus from our perspective we have free will but from God's our destinies are pre-ordained. This does not mean God did not act directly on Earth in the form of Jesus, miracles and so forth. It only means that with absolute knowledge and the original cause he doesn't have to be in complete control to be in complete control.

On suicide I will just say I think the idea that suicide was unforgivable came from the fact that since your last act is a sin you could not accept Jesus (or repent or whatever Catholics did in the past). However, there is certainly a moment just before anyone passes on and since God is without time limitations all it would take is a moment for God to directly save you. There are accounts of people in a near death experience (unconscious state) accepting Jesus and being given a choice of living or going to heaven. This seems to validate the idea anyone can be saved. Quickly googling Catholic and suicide it appears that they currently believe in similar views http://www.suicidereferencelibrary.com/test4~id~676.php


Originally Posted by Jawsofwar
Now lets say I am working for the military and I volunteer to do a "suicide" mission. I am informed that that chances to survive are pretty much nil but what I am about to do might win the war and save many lives in the process. Such as the storming a heavily defended beach head in normandy during ww2 where your chances for survival were slim at best. I have respect for those who go down "fighting." Now lets take an arab who was taught at an early age that westerners were evil etc. He joins a terrorist group and blows himself up while near a school and kills a bunch of kids in the process. I don't have any respect for that obviously but there is alot of disturbing propaganda that comes out of that area that brainwashes people like these.

Both, the American and the Arab in this scenario are noble. Both are dying for a cause they believe is just and both believe they are taking the right course of action. The only difference is that one is misguided. Christ died for both. (Romans 14:14)

Ur... ah... I'd just like to point out the Muslim and Christian motivations are in reality opposite regarding this. First I am viewing Jawsofwar as a Christian as I assume that is where his morality comes from not America and the Arab Idea of blowing yourself up comes directly from Islam. The Muslim believes that if he dies while killing infidels he is sent to a martyr's heaven. Since salvation is by works in Islam this is regarded as the best thing he can do for HIS OWN SALVATION. Let me clarify he is literally sending people "infidels" to hell for his (and his family's) own salvation. It is for selfish reasons, although he has most certainly been deceived and is deceiving himself into thinking it is noble. If you doubt ask yourself couldn't he do more for a cause if instead of blowing himself up he simply fought till the end? In most situations the bomb could be planted and he could walk away (and some Muslims do) ,but, he has chosen to die in addition to that cause. The Christian doctrine is "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." John 15:13 Thus the Christian dies redeeming not condemning someone, furthermore, there is no promise of heaven for having done so. I've seen the Koran verses that elude to "martyr's heaven" but I'd have to go look it up and I'm tired and I need to stop posting, I'm not getting anything done :p

[Safora]

Hmm, i'm not sure how John 3:16 applies to the argument. Unless you mean to say that Jesus' death on the cross DID save everyone.


Jesus' death on the cross saved everyone that chose to believe. Why are we told repeatedly to seek/knock etc. if God is only going to pick whom he wants anyway. That would be futile.


And while inconsequential to the Truth, I have trouble with predestination on a personal level. I cannot imagine God ever really choosing me. So if I think salvation is only for the elect, it is not a far leap for me to decide that I could not ever be one of those people and I am not really saved, and how would I really know...and on and on. It is not good for my head. :cool:

[Safora]

Suicide

To say that you would not be saved if you committed suicide is the same as saying that you must confess every sin in order to be saved, because all sins are equal in the eyes of God. In that case, if you died with any un-confessed sin, you would go to Hell. I think we would all be in trouble. :eek:


But then I wonder is it possible to believe in (trust in, rely on) God and still commit suicide? Is suicide proof of not being saved? I don't think so.


Or is all sin and disobedience in our life proof that we fail to trust God on a regular basis and therefore this act is no different than any other. Just more proof that we are sinners living in a fallen world.



Or will God stop you from committing the act if he so chooses?


The Ultimate Sin


(Sounds like a TV reality show title) :p


If there is one, it is probably blasphemy of the spirit.



Sdenotter... You said that this was a topic your dad preached on. What was his take on it?



********



No one can say "I hate myself, therefore I'm going to kill myself." In reality, they love themselves to the extent that they are only thinking of themselves. Very narcissistic if you ask me....


Actually yes, you can hate yourself that much. Imagine thinking you are evil, and poisonous and that you hurt everything you touch. Imagine believing that those closest to you would actually be better off without you.

Or that you have no one close to you that cares about you. That you don't matter to anyone and no one would notice if you died.

I understand it can be hard to empathize as it doesn't always make rational sense. But emotional disorders skew your judgment. I do believe that being in that type of distress can make one somewhat self involved, but again, if you were in intractable physical pain, would you be able to think of much else?

[one2dredd]

I am really enjoying everyone's Comments! thanks for keeping it civil! This is how we grow as Christians and learn to love each other even if we may not agree on a point but the main fact is we love Jesus and that is the most important thing!

[RoloX2]

thanks for keeping it civil!

To sin against another (Christian or otherwise) is to sin against G-d Himself. To hurt another it to hurt someone He loves. Knowing this, I try to treat everyone as such. (it takes concious effort)

Additionally, a group of Christians is utopian in nature, and I would hate to spoil that.

Until I finally understood this concept, I was a very good Pharisee. Having my white-washed tombstone-ness revealed to me was probably the worst feeling I have ever had (and I've had a lot of awful feelings...and yes, to the point of being suicidal). The plus-side, though, is that it was a crash-course in humility.

What I am trying to say (and by the prior uncommented scriptures) is that I attack concepts/thoughts/ideas, not the person(s) affiliated with them. I want to know the truth and I detest lies in any form. A slightly distorted truth is what subverted man into The Fall; it worked then and it works now.

Back to the topic...The only reason, ultimately, I have not killed myself: To do so would be my calling G-d a liar; I could not act on such an incorrect premise.

G-d says I would never be tempted/burdened beyond what I can bear. I cannot say to Him, "You are wrong."

[RoloX2]

he doesn't have to be in complete control to be in complete control.

Brilliant!

[[toj.cc]WildBillKickoff]

I saw a perfect example of how I believe predestination and free will interact in The Mystery of God's Will by Chuck Swindoll.

He believes that it's like we are on a boat from point A to point B. While we are on the boat, we are free to do whatever we want, talk to whoever we want, etc. However, nothing we do will change the fact that eventually we will end up at point B.

I think this is a perfect analogy where someone would have both free will and be predestined at the same time. I don't know what he says about someone trying to jump overboard (I'm guessing for the sake of his point that wouldn't be possible.)

[The Mighty Gerbil]

he doesn't have to be in complete control to be in complete control.
Brilliant!

Um are you being sarcastic or agreeing? I can't tell (sorry). Since you only posted the end of the sentence I'm guessing you think it is contradictory, but, if you understood the paragraph above it, it's not where God is concerned. Let me clarify. The argument you are expressing with freewill vs. predestination is identical to the "can God make a rock so big he cannot lift it" one. You are saying can God create something that is beyond his will. He should be able to because he is God and can do anything, but, if he does it then it's beyond his will and he is not doing it. Let me post my answer with a excerpt from another of my posts.

"Let me answer with the "Can God create a Rock so big he cannot lift it" argument. God created the rock. God created the time within the rock would be lifted. God created the concept of up and down. And God created any perception you would have of the rock being lifted. The Answer to this question is both yes and no. You see the one who makes the rules is not bound by them. Most people would say that something cannot be off/up and on/down at the same time, however, there is research being done on that very thing http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/releases/fourier.htm There are arguments however I would place against this as the 3rd state could simply be considered unknown or neutral (things can have a neutral state unlike people) Neither do I know anything about quantum mechanics to prove or disprove it on a math level."

When you were a child was everything your father did logical to you? He certainly did things that to your mind you could not logical say how they could be. God's logic not only includes anything we know, but, includes what everything that we know is based on. Consequently if you only know the outcome that the basis is dependant on you know nothing as changing the basis changes the outcome. It's like playing a game wherein God made all the rules and you can never know all the rules. You move your piece one space, repeating the action you think you are free to move again, but, you find you can't and God speaks up and says there was a rule that says you can only move X number of times. Everything we know about physics and the laws of nature are circumspect when you have no basis for them. God's logic supersedes ours. If a man tossed a ball we would say he is not in complete control of where it goes because he does not toss perfectly, or know everything (a wind could kick up etc.). When we say a man is "in complete control" of anything it is not true. Man can never be in complete control because he is imperfect, but, people still use the term to indicate direct control or "holding the ball" (and sometimes for extreme skill). If God tosses the ball he does not have to be holding it to be in complete control as he is perfect and knows all the factors. The wind will never blow when he does not want it because he made the wind to blow based on knowing everything to begin with.

Perhaps I should have said God does not have to be in direct control to be in complete control instead of "he doesn't have to be in complete control to be in complete control". I did not because I considered the definition of direct control to be inapplicable to God as it's based on distance and distance is irrelevant to the amount of control God exerts (but not so with Man). I also wanted to stress that the contradiction is inapplicable to God as well. I think the original phrase compares closer to how both free will and total control (apparently contradictory things to Men) are possible at the same time.

I pray this explains better. Mr. Wild Bill beat me to posting and is much more succinct, but, I wrote this thing so I'm posting it! :p On a side note what Christian denomination are you or are you a Messianic Jew? I noticed the G-d, very respectful (and no I am not being sarcastic I like it :) ). Anyway back to suicide :p!

[RoloX2]

Um are you being sarcastic or agreeing? I can't tell (sorry).

That phrase is brilliant and I will use it. It succinctly states, as a working definition, how G-d's soverignty and our free will coexist.

I don't necessarily agree with the preceding portions (without clarification, anyway).

"can God make a rock so big he cannot lift it"

That question is invalid since it is self-contradictory. You cannot/should not entertain an inarguable agument which stipulates the logically impossible.

Much like,

"This statement is false."

[RoloX2]

When you were a child was everything your father did logical to you?

No. That is because he is a wicked putz.

For which this can be tied to the original topic of suicide. People assume everyone else has a typical father, mother, maybe some siblings, relatives, etc. who do the whole family thing. Not everyone does.

I have no family with whom I speak, no familial ties, and never a bond. I have my wife and that is all.

You cannot imagine what that is like just like I cannot imagine what having those things is like; I can only academically understand it from a developmental psychology/abnormal psychology perspective.

Classical or General Projection (as opposed to Freudian Projection) is assuming others act or perceive the same as you. This is frequently a barrier to communicating with someone and is frequently a barrier to understanding someone. You cannot witness to someone if you do not understand them...and they will likely use that against you.

[The Mighty Gerbil]

My Bad about the Father thing. The fact is I actually did consider that you may not have had a Father relationship, but, did not contemplate a alternative (ok I was just burnt out on answering the questions and the questions to those questions and etc. etc.) So I just used the analogy for God which Jesus does to get that dual meaning (yes it had a duel meaning). Thinking about it now I could have just said "was everything logical to you as a child?" (which loses the duel meaning). However, you really can't assume that either. It's possible (but much less likely) that one may have amnesia and not remember their childhood. The problem is God can only be spoken of in analogy. Everything we say about him is a approximation. Language itself is a approximation too as it is built on the understanding of the underlying meanings of the individual and therefore communication will always be imperfect. Basically at some point a assumption must be made in order for communication to begin if it's "Do you speak English?". One expects they will respond if they do. However, they may actually speak English, but, be deaf or simplify not want to talk. Since people are not capable of a absolute belief (except maybe self), only probabilities, one must assume something first in order to do anything. I actually think we are agreeing here.

My concept of the duality of Man and God could be said to be based on perspective, are you seeing though Man's eyes or God's? To be clearer God wants to have a relationship with us, but, knowing that we can never fully understand him (as we are) he must have shaped this world to have things that he could use in analogy to explain himself. When we attempt to understand God's love for us we look to the example he gave in Christ, but, do you really think any Earthly action could show the entire expanse of a love that is infinite? When God showed himself to Moses he said if he showed all of himself Moses would die! By the way not everyone knows what it is like to lose a son and certainly no one knows what it is like to die (because you'd be dead :p) it requires a imagination to understand Jesus' death on any level (and before you say it yes Christ's sacrifice was also a payment not just a example).

As far as the rock question I do think it is apt to the free will vs.predestination argument because it's the same thing. Both are self-contradictory or you can't have free will and have God be in control. If God has absolute power he should be able to do all things which would include making something that's beyond his power, but, if he makes something beyond his power (either rock or free human will it does not matter) he doesn't have absolute power then. That's by man's logic though not God's. Luke 18:27 "And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God." I basically believe with God things that are self-contradictory to man are possible with God. The idea of off and on at the same time illustrates a third alternative in what we considered a yes or no question (although I don't believe in the science or the application of it to Man).

Maybe my answer to the "can God make a rock so big he can't lift it" argument will be easier to understand if I phrase it this way.

God creates this huge rock.
A Man looks on as he tries to lift the rock and sees God can't lift it.
The Man says: You couldn't lift that rock!
God says: No I couldn't lift that rock, but, I'm lifting it.
Man says: How???
God says: I'm lifting the planet it's on so I'm lifting it.

You see he is both lifting and not lifting it based on perspective.

I APOLOGIZE FOR GETTING SO OFF TOPIC SORRY, SORRY. Hopefully this will settle the free will vs. predestination issue.

As far Father issues I know Joyce Meyer's father sexually abused her. I tend to wonder how she came to forgive him. Just something you may want to look into. I don't wish to pry. (Joyce Meyer has a large Ministry if you do not know).

BTW my definition of a hurried post is 4+ hours working on it and that only includes the actual writing time not all the thinking time so believe me I do think about everything...a lot.

[RoloX2]

Both are self-contradictory or you can't have free will and have God be in control.

Why not? That has to be proven, not assumed.

We have to have free will; if we do not, then the New Testament is bunk and G-d is a liar.

G-d cannot command me to make righteous choice knowing that I do not have free will.

Also, 'love' (in any English or Greek definition) would not exist without free-will.


If God has absolute power he should be able to do all things which would include making something that's beyond his power,

That's the flaw: Omnipotent means that there is nothing beyond His power; the question assumes a contradictory fact-not-established. "Tell me, when did you stop beating your wife?"


That's by man's logic though not God's.

I love the looks I get when non-believers, especially egg-heads (I work with--literally--rocket scientists), are surprised I am a Christian and they ask me what drew me to the Bible and I respond, "Its logic is what drew me to Christ."

They look like they were smacked in the head with a 2x4 and don't know where they are.

[RoloX2]

As far Father issues I know Joyce Meyer's father sexually abused her.

There are many more forms of abuse than sexual and all of them distort, destroy, pervert the development of the child-to-be-adult's mind, personality, and cognitive abilities.

I tend to wonder how she came to forgive him.

"That was then, this is now; what do I need to do now to move ahead?" -Me

"The nice thing about having a stunted limbic system (emotions don't work quite correctly) is that I remain objective, detached by default in situations where typical people lose judgement to their emotions." -Me again

"It rains on the just and the unjust in the same manner." -Some scripture somewhere

"Not gonna waste my hate on you" -Metallica

I don't wish to pry.

Some of my past I know of, other parts I do not. The mind's defence mechanism is there for a reason and I am content to let sleeping dogs lie. I've never seen EMDR and the like help anyone, only make them worse (much like the seven returning demons).

The known stuff...."all things...for the betterment...."

(Joyce Meyer has a large Ministry if you do not know).

I just wonder which parts of the Bible have been deleted; apparently 1 Cor 14:34 has been. I didn't get the memo.

[The Mighty Gerbil]

Originally Posted by The Mighty Gerbil
I don't wish to pry.

Some of my past I know of, other parts I do not. The mind's defense mechanism is there for a reason and I am content to let sleeping dogs lie. I've never seen EMDR and the like help anyone, only make them worse (much like the seven returning demons).

The known stuff...."all things...for the betterment...."


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Mighty Gerbil
(Joyce Meyer has a large Ministry if you do not know).

I just wonder which parts of the Bible have been deleted; apparently 1 Cor 14:34 has been. I didn't get the memo.


EEK I don't want to get into 1 Cor 14:34. When you described your father as "wicked putz" I detected some "sleeping dogs that weren't lying very still" and this is also a suicide thread (or was :p) so that made me wonder too. I will consider the father subject closed.

"EMDR"?...one google later...at least I've learned something :p

I love the looks I get when non-believers, especially egg-heads (I work with--literally--rocket scientists), are surprised I am a Christian and they ask me what drew me to the Bible and I respond, "Its logic is what drew me to Christ."

They look like they were smacked in the head with a 2x4 and don't know where they are.

I love hearing that and could not agree more (we are the illogical ones not God)! I don't think I came to Christ because of logic though. I just have always felt his presence. If I did have to give a reason of why I believed when I was a child (because I cannot remember not believing in Jesus, sorry double neg :p) it would have been something like... Free love and eternal salvation and all he wants from me is doing what was right anyway? Of course I also thought all the people in America were Christians and those who did not believe in him were in other countries simply too far away to have heard about him:p

I aparently like the :p smiley :)

[Safora]

The argument you are expressing with freewill vs. predestination is identical to the "can God make a rock so big he cannot lift it" one. You are saying can God create something that is beyond his will.

Not entirely. I am saying that it is part of Gods will for us to have free will. I believe that God wants us all to be saved, but it is more important in His eyes that we have free will. I want my husband to love me, but I want to know that that love comes from him and not because I some how forced him to love me. Same thing.


Families, perspective etc.

I know I was surprised that people cannot fathom our lack of family. Neither Rolo or I have family and when I tell people that, many are taken aback. I assumed it would be no different than a person saying they have 2 kids vs. 3. I did not expect that some cannot grasp a life without family.

Even some basic words may be misinterpreted. Like Love. How do you understand and accept the Love of an eternal Father when you never saw it from your own father? How do you differentiate what the creator means by love and that which has been corrupted by humans? How can you learn to trust the invisible/omnipotent when the visible/fallible has been your torment? Define Grace to someone who has been the scapegoat all their lives.





Originally Posted by RoloX2
I just wonder which parts of the Bible have been deleted; apparently 1 Cor 14:34 has been. I didn't get the memo.

Yep...right after they deleted 1 Timothy 2:11-14



11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.
I don't know how you can have a female minister who claims the bible is the inerrant word of God. That is contradictory.

[one2dredd]

I don't know how you can have a female minister who claims the bible is the inerrant word of God. That is contradictory.


You have to know the back story of Joyce. She did not want to be a minister and her husband does wear the pants in the family. My mother has been so blessed by her ministry and she has grown so much in the Lord. I believe a woman can be raised up if no man wants to take the responsability. Remember Deborah in the Bible in Judges? She was a Female Judge a Unheard of thing in Bible times. She lead the Israelites for a period of time when no man came forward to take that responsabilty. God uses those who are willing. If a man is not willing than God will raise up a woman. I agree with that a woman should be subject to a man, in fact Joyce's Husband tried to lead the ministry and he felt he could not do it. But I know that Joyce as a wife is subject to her husband she writes about. Joyce's Ministry is geared toward women and with all the bad Childhoods I believe a man would have a hard time reaching todays woman. That is my two cents. The one great thing is in the end it is up to God to judge and if someone is trying to do God's will and reaching the hurting and the lost all the better at least they are doing something and not sitting at home wishing someone would do it. Let God be the judge he will put them in their place or bless them for the efforts.

[RoloX2]

When you described your father as "wicked putz" I detected some "sleeping dogs that weren't lying very still"

Oh, I can see how that could come accross that way. Not at all. It wasn't an epithet; it was a terse assessment. My father's actions were illogical and that is why they appeared illogical.

The effects of my childhood still linger and I address those, but the why's and wheretofore's are academic and I don't want to know as there would be no profit in it.

[RoloX2]

You have to know the back story of Joyce.

I don't. But I do know the back-story to the New Testament.

We all agree that the NT is the inspired, infallible word of G-d. (I'll assume everyone agreed to the forum's terms)

If G-d called a woman to lead a church, then G-d contradicted Himself and is a liar and a sinner. Since that is impossible, the I Am must Not Be. :eek:

If there are undefined exceptions to scriptures, then my sin nature would be interested in the exceptions to many of the famous ten commandments. :D


Remember Deborah in the Bible in Judges? She was a Female Judge a Unheard of thing in Bible times. She lead the Israelites for a period of time when no man came forward to take that responsabilty.

Deborah was still subject to Barak and G-d commanded Barak to lead the forces (vv. 6-7).

The problem is that Barak trusted Deborah's relationship with G-d more than his own. That's pretty funny, because I've done the same exact thing with Safora. This, to me, shows that the supporting role of a woman has no boundaries, far unlike the "shut up and do what you're told" stereotype we have today.


As far as the Meyers ministry is concerned--according to the web site--is not a women's minstry or targeted towards women. Also, her bio excludes the possibility of her husband being involved. Then there's the Christian watchdog/IRS investigation...the five houses with pools and golf courses....all financed with donations, not book sales. 1 Thess. 5:21

[RoloX2]

Let God be the judge he will put them in their place or bless them for the efforts.

Judging, for the purpose of condemning/acquitting, belongs to the LORD.

Judging, for the purpose of truth/validating/fact-checking/using good discretion, is commanded of us by the LORD.

[Safora]

You have to know the back story of Joyce.



If "back story" were an excuse for sin, none of us would need a savior.




I believe a woman can be raised up if no man wants to take the responsability.


Circumstance is never license to sin. God requires obedience in everything. That is where faith comes in.



Many times men do not want to take responsibility is because women have taken over that role. The more you allow women in positions of authority the less men will step up.


That is not even the case here. This isn't a situation where there was no one else in a community to teach the word of God so a woman stepped in. This is where a woman set her self up as leader of a church from the beginning.




Joyce's Ministry is geared toward women and with all the bad Childhoods I believe a man would have a hard time reaching todays woman.


Are you saying that God is unable to reach today's woman using the leaders He appointed and instead needs us to go against His will to reach the world? Do you really believe it is ok for a pastor willfully disobey God?


There is plenty of room for women to teach other women, without them setting themselves up as leader/authority over a congregation. Joyce Meyer would have been very effective with her books and conferences for women instead of going against Gods word.



As someone with one of those "bad childhoods" I can say from experience that we need godly male leaders more so than the average woman. True leadership gives us a sense of security we have never had.




The one great thing is in the end it is up to God to judge and if someone is trying to do God's will


Of course it is. And regarding this, He already made His will known.

***

And this all started out as a harmless little conversation about suicide...
:p

[one2dredd]

Btw She did not set her self as leader of the church her Husband was the head of the church in the beginning. It started as a Bible Study in their home and it kinda went from there. I was talking with my mother about it and even if she is this horrid person God has used her to strengthen believers. I am not a huge fan of Joyce but I have seen what the Lord has done in my mother's life through her ministry and my Mother is such an amazing woman in the lord since my dad passed away. I have 3 Younger brothers she is raising on her own and if it was not for not just Joyce's Teaching but others My mother would not be the woman of God she is today. She was so afraid to do anything and the Lord has given her such great strength it is amazing to see my mom's personallity change from before my Father's Death to now. Her self Confidance is much greater she was such a fearfull person but the Lord has delivered her from a lot of that. I understand where you both are coming from and i agree mostly with you all. And I apperciate your comments on the subject. God Bless.

[RoloX2]

You are rationalising. I can rattle off many good things that came as a result of my sin and ignore the rest, too. The proper application of the Word is become supplanted, which is the Deceiver's goal. You forget: Lucifer is very charismatic and charming, too. Sin wouldn't be a problem if it weren't attractive.

I mentioned this earlier, I; now I will quote it.
From joycemeyer.org:
How did Joyce Meyer Ministries get started?

Joyce Meyer began teaching the Word of God in 1976 and entered full-time ministry in 1980. She started by developing, coordinating and teaching a weekly meeting as an associate pastor in a church in St. Louis, Missouri. After five years she established her own ministry called Life In The Word. In 2003 the ministry’s name was changed to Joyce Meyer Ministries and the television, radio and magazine titles were changed to Enjoying Everyday Life.This argument is no different than, "Jesus was a good moral teacher, but he was not G-d."

[one2dredd]

The Bible also says the Word of God does not return void. So what can be meant for personal gain God's word can still minister to people and change their lives. That is what I was trying to say.

[astrod00d]

To chime in on the topic, I believe that suicide can lead to hell. I don't believe it does in and of itself though. Suicide is defined as the intentional taking of one's own life. If you do this selfishly to end your life so that you don't have to bear something, I believe you will go to hell. Anyone who truly believes in Jesus would not commit suicide in a selfish manner. It is not the act of suicide but the death before true belief that would send someone to hell.

On the other hand, if you are in some situation where it was necessary to take your own life to save others, then I don't believe that you will go to hell. Besides, Jesus tells us that there is no greater love than for someone to sacrifice himself for another.

[one2dredd]

This is a tough topic for me. My uncle who was a christian did take his own life. He was going through a very messy divorce and his kids were taken totally from him and he was extremely depressed. I don't know but I do hope to see him in heaven but I really don't know if he will be there.

[RoloX2]

This is a tough topic for me. My uncle who was a christian did take his own life. He was going through a very messy divorce and his kids were taken totally from him and he was extremely depressed. I don't know but I do hope to see him in heaven but I really don't know if he will be there.

Of course he will be there; you said he was a believer. (Ro 10:9)

If your uncle won't be with the LORD, then neither will we and we can all see each other in the Lake of Fire. (Isa 22:13)

[RoloX2]

To chime in on the topic, I believe that suicide can lead to hell. I don't believe it does in and of itself though. Suicide is defined as the intentional taking of one's own life. If you do this selfishly to end your life so that you don't have to bear something, I believe you will go to hell. Anyone who truly believes in Jesus would not commit suicide in a selfish manner. It is not the act of suicide but the death before true belief that would send someone to hell.

Do you stone prostitutes on the weekend, too?

That is blasphemous garbage. (Ro 2:17) Have you even read this thread prior to posting?

Yes, I am peeved and justifiably so. I am tired of people assuming suicidal people are selfish. (That was already addressed.)

Perhaps you (pluaral 'you') will find your life so hopeless and desperate that your mind will open. Then, if you survive--and IT WILL ONLY BE DUE TO CHRIST AND NOT YOURSELF--you will lose that Pharisee-like attitude in favour of a "love your neighbour" one. Remember this the next time you pray for understanding. (Proverbs 17:3, and all of Job, and this, too, was already addressed)

Anyone who truly believes in Jesus would not commit suicide in a selfish manner.

Peeved-schmeeved. I am appalled at this haughtiness. This is another "holier-than-thou" attitude that undermines the Gospel and keeps the non-believers away. (Ro 2:24)

What you are saying here is, "Anyone who truly believes in Jesus would not sin." Have you sinned recently? Oh, then, if you truly were a Christian, then you wouldn't sin...so you cannot possibly a Christian!

If you sin once, you are a sinner; whether you tell a little lie or kill yourself, it is the same--you broke the law and are a lawbreaker and you need atonement. (Ro 2:25-27, and this, third time, was already discussed)

--+--

Before You Know It, We Have A Golden Calf

Frankly, I do not care what you (again, plural you, as in everyone) think or what your opinion is. It is baseless. It is based on carnal nature, sin nature; it is corrupt and has no knowledge of G-d. (Ro 7:14)

What we do care about is G-d's opinion--His Word--and your experiences in growing in the Word and the things He revealed to you. This is why we are here, isn't it? So stay focused on Christ.


2 Corinthians 10:4, NKJV:For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ, and being ready to punish all disobedience when your obedience is fulfilled.

If you say someone will be eternally separated from G-d, tortured, then you better back it with Scripture, lest we propigate false doctrine, lies.

[Safora]

This is a tough topic for me. My uncle who was a christian did take his own life. He was going through a very messy divorce and his kids were taken totally from him and he was extremely depressed. I don't know but I do hope to see him in heaven but I really don't know if he will be there.

I am so sorry for your loss. Since he is a believer he will be there in heaven.

Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus ~Romans 8:1

[[toj.cc]WildBillKickoff]

Rolo-- while I agree with your opinion, I strongly disagree with your methods of expressing it.
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

However...
11 It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12 to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. 14 Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming. 15 Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ. 16 From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.

You correctly used Scripture to instruct and rebuke, but as far as I can tell, you did so in a way devoid of love. This will encourage two things: firstly, it will encourage a spirit of discord among our community, and secondly, it will encourage folks who might have opinions different from yours to NOT speak up-- and how will you (plural) be able to instruct when no one with a differing opinion speaks out?

Please take this message in the manner which I intended it-- a gentle reminder that this is a community made up of many fallable, imperfect people who are doing their best to try to know the unknowable ways of God through His word, and that we are all at different points along our journey.

[Safora]

Bill,

Please explain to me then, how saying that people who commit/attempt suicide are "selfish," and questioning their faith, is said out of love. Why is astroods judgmental attitude accepted and approved of, but to call him on it, considered wrong?

I do know that everything Rolo said was out of love. He has an amazing level of compassion for those who are hurting. (Like Christ did :) ) It is one of the things I admire most about him. In his post, I see him defending those who have been effected by this issue, and pointing out how wrong it is to condemn someone for their sin. He is passionate about this.


He is just as passionate about finding the Truth. No one who has posted that suicide is unforgivable has been able to back it up with scripture. What he is saying is that any opinions that come strictly from man are by nature valueless, because we are sinners, and our sin nature leads us to believe all kinds of un-truths. He is calling people to really think about the things they are saying, and be able to defend those positions with scripture, not conjecture.

I hope you can re-read Rolos post, and view it in the spirit in which it was posted.

[RoloX2]

WildBillKickoff;218510'] it will encourage a spirit of discord among our community,



Luke 12:49"I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! 50But I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is completed! 51Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. 52From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three. Why is the Word always called a 'Sword'?




Romans 16:17I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them. 18For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people. 19Everyone has heard about your obedience, so I am full of joy over you; but I want you to be wise about what is good, and innocent about what is evil. Did the discord begin with me or with the argument that exalted itself against the knowledge of G-d?




1 Corinthians 1:10I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought. 11My brothers, some from Chloe's household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. 12What I mean is this: One of you says, "I follow Paul"; another, "I follow Apollos"; another, "I follow Cephas[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=1&version=31#fen-NIV-28360a)]"; still another, "I follow Christ." 13Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=1&version=31#fen-NIV-28361b)] the name of Paul? 14I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15so no one can say that you were baptized into my name. 16(Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don't remember if I baptized anyone else.) 17For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.Verse 17 is highly relevant, for that is what I attacked.

Do not say "He is risen!", yet proclaim that His resurrection can be nullified by a Christian's sin.



1 Corinthians 3:18Do not deceive yourselves. If any one of you thinks he is wise by the standards of this age, he should become a "fool" so that he may become wise. 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight. As it is written: "He catches the wise in their craftiness"[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=3&version=31#fen-NIV-28414a)]; 20and again, "The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile."[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=3&version=31#fen-NIV-28415b)] 21So then, no more boasting about men!

Matthew 5:18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.WildBillKickoff;218510']You correctly used Scripture to instruct and rebuke, but as far as I can tell, you did so in a way devoid of love.

Can you elaborate?

/me sweeps hand over head. (I don't see it.)





Matthew 22:36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=22&version=31#fen-NIV-23908b)] 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=22&version=31#fen-NIV-23910c)] 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

Romans 5:7Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Who loves the suicidal, who need it most?

If an unsaved person contemplating suicide decided to seek G-d, stumbled in here (or anywhere), and saw the Christian's condemning attitudes demonstrated in this thread, do you think they would post?

Or, more likely--what I already explained--the Christian--a supposed representative of Christ--validated the suicidal person's notions that they are not worthy of life, or anything, the selfish ingrates...Which comes across as G-d Himself stating that they are evil and should be put to death. The Christian convinced the victim that suicide is the right thing to do.

How may of you would kill yourselves to make things a little easier for those around you? That is the last, selfless act of many suicide victims...which makes them more Christ-like than those who would condemn them to the Lake of Fire for being selfish.


TO COMPLY WITH THE FIRST THREE SCRIPTURES, I demand the two (and anyone else) who claim suicide victims are unsaved to post scriptures to support your dogma. If you cannot support your claim yet continue to speak it, you are a willful liar, a tool of the Deceiver. "I never knew you." comes to mind.

We are commanded to arrive at the Truth, in unity. Until we do that, WildBill, there will be division. Discord was already here; the only difference is that you are now mildly aware of it.

[RoloX2]

P.S.

Y'know...I should be angry. I even want to be angry (catharsis?), but cannot be angry. It is strange. Where is it? Where did it go? Maybe that part of my limbic system finally broke, too.

I am sorta hurt. I think. Maybe I should be, but, like anger, that seems to be on hiatus too.

Why? Pearls to pigs?

I spent hours researching, sharing, preparing, and posting in just this one thread for the sole purpose of strengthening fellow Christians. After all, I have somewhat-unique experiences directly on topic, so I have to share what I know. I would be quite crummy if I didn't give my best effort. These are people in search of Almighty G-d's truth like I am, so it would be awesome to grow with them!

If that isn't love, then what is? Frilly foo-foo affectations?

Hours. Hours that could have been spent playing Guild Wars (because that is why I am here, after all). And I get slammed for being devoid of love, not using scripture (WHAT!?), flaming, bashing. The salt-on-the-wound is: my point-of-Biblical-Truth goes ignored.

Tell me if what I am getting from this is true: My time is better spent playing Guild Wars.

[[toj.cc]WildBillKickoff]

Can you elaborate?

/me sweeps hand over head. (I don't see it.)

I'd be happy to.

Discord was already here; the only difference is that you are now mildly aware of it.

Do you stone prostitutes on the weekend, too?

Have you even read this thread prior to posting?

Rolo, there is perfect truth in what your point was. As I said, I agree with you completely as far as the topic goes. You cannot argue against Scripture; to do so would be arguing against God Himself, and it is the basis for all truth and meaning. You and I hold Scripture in the same reverence; in fact, when I led a weekly Bible Study in game the one rule governing discussion was "sola Scriptura". Any other opinions are inherently flawed.

However, consider Proverbs 11:12:
A man who lacks judgment derides his neighbor, but a man of understanding holds his tongue.
Or Proverbs 12:18:
Reckless words pierce like a sword, but the tongue of the wise brings healing.
Or Proverbs 25:15:
Through patience a ruler can be persuaded, and a gentle tongue can break a bone.
Or James 1:26:
If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not keep a tight rein on his tongue, he deceives himself and his religion is worthless.

Rolo, I have no problem with any instruction you have given. My only problem is with your sarcasm (quoted above). I'm particularly sensitive to this because I have a serious problem with sarcasm IRL. I've taken to the practice of rereading each post and eliminating sarcasm whenever I post something serious.

P.S.

Y'know...I should be angry. I even want to be angry (catharsis?), but cannot be angry. It is strange. Where is it? Where did it go? Maybe that part of my limbic system finally broke, too.

I am sorta hurt. I think. Maybe I should be, but, like anger, that seems to be on hiatus too.

Why? Pearls to pigs?

I spent hours researching, sharing, preparing, and posting in just this one thread for the sole purpose of strengthening fellow Christians. After all, I have somewhat-unique experiences directly on topic, so I have to share what I know. I would be quite crummy if I didn't give my best effort. These are people in search of Almighty G-d's truth like I am, so it would be awesome to grow with them!

If that isn't love, then what is? Frilly foo-foo affectations?

Hours. Hours that could have been spent playing Guild Wars (because that is why I am here, after all). And I get slammed for being devoid of love, not using scripture (WHAT!?), flaming, bashing. The salt-on-the-wound is: my point-of-Biblical-Truth goes ignored.

Tell me if what I am getting from this is true: My time is better spent playing Guild Wars.

Thank you for this. I do want to note that I never intended to slam you. I said your post appeared devoid of love, but I would never suggest that someone who took the time to research and prepare a response (as I have) is devoid of love themselves. What I should have said was that I felt you spoke the truth in an unloving way (sarcasm is, after all, meant to break down, not build up), and I apologize to you for not making that more clear. I also should have pointed to those specific examples first.

Certainly Jesus reacted harshly and mocked the Pharisees, Elijah reacted harshly and mocked the prophets of Baal, but the big difference is that I have met T.J. (astrod00d) and I can tell you firsthand that he is a man who is seeking after God, who was simply uninformed about the scripture which refutes his opinion.

Please also note-- I took the time to read all of your hard work, and I do appreciate the effort it took-- and the finished product. I'll share one example and I'll finish up.

My wife and several women from our church started a study on a book on how to be a better help-meet for their husbands. Several women actually stopped going to the study because although the book was based entirely on Scripture, the author spoke with such vitriol and predicted that women who did not follow her recommendations would have their husbands leave them and be left lonely and penniless. Although Debbie Pearl (the author) poured her heart and soul into the book, she could have written it in such a way that no truth would have been lost, yet it would have been received by many more. Similarly, if you had kept the truth you spoke and left out the sarcasm, the truth would have been just as truthful but better received.

[[toj.cc]WildBillKickoff]

Bill,

Please explain to me then, how saying that people who commit/attempt suicide are "selfish," and questioning their faith, is said out of love. Why is astroods judgmental attitude accepted and approved of, but to call him on it, considered wrong?

I do know that everything Rolo said was out of love. He has an amazing level of compassion for those who are hurting. (Like Christ did :) ) It is one of the things I admire most about him. In his post, I see him defending those who have been effected by this issue, and pointing out how wrong it is to condemn someone for their sin. He is passionate about this.


He is just as passionate about finding the Truth. No one who has posted that suicide is unforgivable has been able to back it up with scripture. What he is saying is that any opinions that come strictly from man are by nature valueless, because we are sinners, and our sin nature leads us to believe all kinds of un-truths. He is calling people to really think about the things they are saying, and be able to defend those positions with scripture, not conjecture.

I hope you can re-read Rolos post, and view it in the spirit in which it was posted.

I believe that my above post addressed most of what you have concerns about (legitimate concerns, I might add). As for what has not been addressed--

As far as Astro, Rolo already stated the relevant scriptures and pointed out the flaws in his statements, so I didn't feel it necessary to voice anything further other than that I affirmed the truth in Rolo's post while disagreeing with the method of delivery. Your point is well taken, however, and I do agree after rereading this thread several times (and losing sleep over it) that I should have reiterated the points for clarification.

If either of you have other concerns, I would be happy to address them. As I said above, it was simply the sarcasm which led me to feel that the post was written in an unloving manner, and I should have been more specific about that.

[RoloX2]

WildBillKickoff;218661']
My only problem is with your sarcasm (quoted above). I'm particularly sensitive to this because I have a serious problem with sarcasm IRL.

I believe sarcasm is not improper in some instances and wonderful in others.

However, the comment wasn't sarcastic at all; I was illustrating a direct parallel. I assume we all agree that stoning prostitues is wrong. I correlated treating prostitues in such a manner and treating suicide victims in such a manner is no different, ergo both are wrong.

The comment was also supposed to add a little levity, but apparently it did not. :( Even being furious has never prevented me from injecting humour.

This is one of those scenarios where text only, no countenance can be a big problem. In the absence of that, we likely fill that blank with our own experiences and habits. (If we were raised in a hostile household, we would put a hostile spin on something read; if we were raised in a peaceful, lighthearted household, we wouldn't read things as threatening, etc.) I would take it that you have had bad experiences with sarcasm and I can understand your taking exception to it. For me, I had a messed up upbringing and tend to be defensive. Perhaps you and I have had similar experiences..?


WildBillKickoff;218661']
(sarcasm is, after all, meant to break down, not build up),

Yes. To replace a weak, flawed structure with a new, proper one, we must first raze it.



WildBillKickoff;218661']
Certainly Jesus reacted harshly and mocked the Pharisees, Elijah reacted harshly and mocked the prophets of Baal, but the big difference is that I have met T.J. (astrod00d) and I can tell you firsthand that he is a man who is seeking after God,

I never met astrod00d and certainly we take whatever I have to say in that context. He is here, so I will assume he is a man after G-d's own heart. I also wondered if 'astrod00d' is a permutation of 'AstroCreep'. (Sorry for talking about you, astro, in the third person.)

Given my assumption (and your assertion), a G-dly man would take being equated to a Pharisee seriously ("Whooa! I'm no Pharisee! What's he talking about!?" and would look into it.) and would also understand what I meant/would get the reference without my explaining who the Pharisees were in the NT.

WildBillKickoff;218661']
who was simply uninformed about the scripture which refutes his opinion.

And that is my only 'beef'...I thought the preceeding messages were very informative. Since they were not read/were ignored/failed to get attention and given the distinct lack of a scripturally-based response, a starker post was in order. ("The definition of insanity is doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting a different result." -either Einstein or Franklin)

[mist_01]

For my two cents i had the same opinion when i read your post. It had good points but it could have been stated in a more uplifting way. Yes, wrong ideas need to be corrected but it is better if it can be done in a loving way. If it is the repeating that is annoying you, you could simply quote yourself as well. Again, this is not against you, just a suggestion that it could have been stated lovingly while still getting the same points across.

[astrod00d]

RoloX2, I'm terribly sorry that I offended you. I was simply trying to convey my thoughts on the subject. I'm by no means saying that I am right nor am I passing judgement. I'm not saying that people who commit suicide will or even should go to hell. I'm just saying that's how I understand it. I may quite possibly (more like probably) be wrong in my assessment because I'm not very well versed in the Bible yet and can only draw my conclusions from my own knowledge of the Word and what I've been lead to believe throughout my life.

This is the first time I've read anything from you because I just recently returned to the SoE forums and I gotta say, I'm a little disappointed in your reaction and reckless candor. I'm not really offended by it but I am a little worried about how you went off on me without even knowing me. What if I wasn't a Christian and was here just offering my opinion and possibly seeking God or answers about God? If I got a response from a supposed Christian like the one you gave, I don't think I'd be very impressed and maybe even dissuaded from deciding to follow Jesus.

If I say something that's obviously wrong or refuted in the Bible, please let me know about it and show me why I'm wrong so I can learn from it.

For the record, suicide is a sin and sin cannot send you to hell because it has already been forgiven. However, if you do not believe in Jesus and thus are not awarded his salvation, you will be judged and go to hell upon death. Am I wrong? The way I worded it before was this: "It is not the act of suicide but the death before true belief that would send someone to hell." Please tell me if this is wrong. I'd hate to keep believing it if it were.

Here's another question that just popped into my head. When a non-believer faces judgement, is that pretty much a one-way ticket to hell or are there other consequences that don't include hell?

Oh, and thanks Bill for stepping in and helping us out here. That just shows how good of a leader you are.

[Safora]

Posting at work so this might be rushed...


What if I wasn't a Christian and was here just offering my opinion and possibly seeking God or answers about God? If I got a response from a supposed Christian like the one you gave, I don't think I'd be very impressed and maybe even dissuaded from deciding to follow Jesus.

By being here it is implied that you are a Christian. So to say that you could have been a non Christian isn't accurate.

"Supposed Christian" is a very judgemental thing to say. What gives you the right to question anothers salvation? That is exactly that attitude that you were being called on.


Rolo does an excellent job at witnessing and I am not saying that because he is my husband. He is the reason I came to Christ and that was no easy task.


If I say something that's obviously wrong or refuted in the Bible, please let me know about it and show me why I'm wrong so I can learn from it.

If all the logic and scripture posted so far hasn't changed your mind, I'm not sure what will.



However, if you do not believe in Jesus and thus are not awarded his salvation, you will be judged and go to hell upon death. Am I wrong?... "It is not the act of suicide but the death before true belief that would send someone to hell." Please tell me if this is wrong. I'd hate to keep believing it if it were.


Again you are questioning anothers faith. You are assuming that anyone who comitted suicide automatically isn't a real Christian. Can you give scripture to explain why you make that assumption?


Sin, by definition means we didn't "have enough faith" to remain free of sin. If "having enough faith" were issue, then we would all be condemed. To be saved we need to believe that Jesus is Lord and died for our sins, and we need to repent, that is all.


Example...a husband who is in a marriage where his spouse wont be intimate with him...he strays...does this mean that he did not have enough faith that Jesus would eventually restore his marriage...and is therefore going to hell? This is the same thing.


Hopefully we can now get back to the topic and ignore the "presentation."

[RoloX2]

For the record, suicide is a sin and sin cannot send you to hell because it has already been forgiven.

Correct; however, your original judgemental post did not state that:

If you do this selfishly to end your life so that you don't have to bear something, I believe you will go to hell. I was simply trying to convey my thoughts on the subject. I'm by no means saying that I am right nor am I passing judgement.

"Oh, I didn't mean it?" I do not agree. You stated a belief without uncertainty and asserted they are selfish. No take-backs, neener-neener! :p

I'm not saying that people who commit suicide will or even should go to hell. I'm just saying that's how I understand it.

That is not what you posted. Do you have a clear understanding now? (that was the goal here)

This is the first time I've read anything from you because I just recently returned to the SoE forums and I gotta say, I'm a little disappointed in your reaction and reckless candor. I'm not really offended by it but I am a little worried about how you went off on me without even knowing me. What if I wasn't a Christian and was here just offering my opinion and possibly seeking God or answers about God?

In other words, "What if things were completely different, what would you do?" I would do something completely different.

A non-believer in this thread is an entirely different scenario. Someone suggested I quote myself (which means you aren't listening):


If an unsaved person contemplating suicide decided to seek G-d, stumbled in here (or anywhere), and saw the Christian's condemning attitudes demonstrated in this thread, do you think they would post?



Or, more likely--what I already explained--the Christian--a supposed representative of Christ--validated the suicidal person's notions that they are not worthy of life, or anything, the selfish ingrates...Which comes across as G-d Himself stating that they are evil and should be put to death. The Christian convinced the victim that suicide is the right thing to do.How may of you would kill yourselves to make things a little easier for those around you? That is the last, selfless act of many suicide victims...which makes them more Christ-like than those who would condemn them to the Lake of Fire for being selfish.

In this thread, so far, a non-believer sees that Christians can be judgemental and condescending of the 'sinners', sees another Christian finding that is wrong, then other Christians giving him flak for the delivery, eclipsing the point.

What do you see? (I would have appreciated it if you would have answered my question before asking me the very same question. I believe your behaviour to be rude.)

[[toj.cc]WildBillKickoff]

"Supposed Christian" is a very judgemental thing to say. What gives you the right to question anothers salvation? That is exactly that attitude that you were being called on....

Hopefully we can now get back to the topic and ignore the "presentation."

Well stated, good catch. We should NEVER question another believer's salvation.

[Safora]

WildBillKickoff;218844']Well stated, good catch. We should NEVER question another believer's salvation.

On another board that I post on, it is a TOS violation to question another members salvation. I wonder if that would be a good thing to add to the TOJ charter?

[ajmucha]

I would support adding that to the charter.

[astrod00d]

I wasn't questioning your faith Rolox2. I was entertaining a hypothetical scenario where a non-Christian visits the forum and is confronted by someone he supposes is a Christian. I'm sorry that it was interpreted that way.

I don't know why you posted that I was trying to take back what I said. I wasn't and I can't understand why you are interpreting it that way. It seems to me that most of what I've posted has been misunderstood.

I gotta get back to work but I'll check back later to continue the conversation.

[[toj.cc]WildBillKickoff]

I think something that we can all learn from this thread would be that it is incredibly difficult to convey emotions and intent through text. I vote that we all take a step back and start out by having a healthy swig of benefit of the doubt, chased by a shooter of asking for clarification.

I believe that we (myself included) have reacted to what we perceive is being said rather than the intention of the writer. Rolo, Astro, Safora, please accept my apology.

[mist_01]

It so cool when we can disagree and misunderstand each other but still show the love of God in the way we work around our misunderstandings. Thats Christ working in our lives.

WildBillKickoff;218898']I think something that we can all learn from this thread would be that it is incredibly difficult to convey emotions and intent through text. I vote that we all take a step back and start out by having a healthy swig of benefit of the doubt, chased by a shooter of asking for clarification.

I believe that we (myself included) have reacted to what we perceive is being said rather than the intention of the writer. Rolo, Astro, Safora, please accept my apology.

[RoloX2]

I wasn't questioning your faith Rolox2. I was entertaining a hypothetical scenario where a non-Christian visits the forum and is confronted by someone he supposes is a Christian. I'm sorry that it was interpreted that way.

I interpreted that the way you meant it, purely hypothetical and not questioning my salvation. (not that it matters...every other aspect of my character wasn't given the benefit of the doubt, at this point, it is moot)

However, riddle me this: How do I interpret your not answering any of my on-topic questions? That was the second post you made as if none of my prior posts even existed..!..?

Ignoring my pertinent conversation is the highest insult anyone can do to me and my pointing that out also goes ignored.


My time can be spent where I am welcome. I am very uncomfortable here; I should not have come. (The why's & how's do not matter; it is what it is and I am tired.)

Please delete my account.

[Safora]

Good bye everyone. God Bless.

Please delete me as well.

[mist_01]

i am truly sorry to see you Go. God Bless.

[DZwart]

I've been making a really strong effort to get caught up on the forums over the last couple days. I'm sad to see how this thread ended up with Rolo and Safora leaving the guild (no new posts and left the in-game guild). For now, I'm going to close this thread until I have a chance to review the thread further (more than a few quick breaks at work) and reflect a little on this.

Rolo and Safora - In case you do look in on us, we do not delete accounts, you are ALWAYS welcome to return or contact any of us in-game.

EDIT: Oops, I can't lock this. Please refrain from further posts for now though.

[[toj.cc]WildBillKickoff]

However, I can lock the thread.