Magic

[guyee]

I really don't understand why everyone here has this unreasonable fear of magic. I mean it's ok to go out and beat someone to death with a sword, but if you use magic then your soul is damned for eternity?

And shouldnt the use of magic affect whether or not it is considered as evil? Same as you can use a knife to prepare food or kill someone, that doesnt make the knife itself evil, or your use of the knife a cause for eternal damnation does it?

Why should magic be different? If you use magic in a game to kill your oponents, how does that differ from you killing them with any other kind of weapon?

Where exactly in the Bible does it say that magic is wrong? I'm not talking about the praise of other deities, but simply magic how it is symbolized in games, as a part of the person that casts the spells?

[TrigunX89]

If you're strictly talking about magic in video games, then it may or may not be wrong.  It usually comes down to this - do you feel that God is telling you it's wrong?  I could tell you my personal feelings about it, but I don't think that would resolve anything.  I'll give you the same advice that I received here.  Read I Chorinthians 8, and then see how you feel.

Now, if you're talking about using magic in real life, that's a whole different story.  I would stay far away from it.

[Dr. Tek]

Lol, I started writing this, then saw you alread said my main point, beat me to it. . . . . .

Also another thing. In the Bible, various things, from tent pegs to swords, anf knives, were used to kill people, and some fo these killings were done by people that sent them. "Magic" was never used, and the practice of it was forbidden. In games, it is after all a game, nothing real about it, so like Ive told everyone else with similar questions, read 1 Corinthians 8 and apply it to the situation.

[CCGR]

I tend to prefer warrior characters anyways. What's wrong with self defense? In Morrowind I did lock picking magic but not summoning. I don't like games that force magic on you, or hinder your character without it.

2Kings 17:17 And they caused their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire, and used divination and enchantments, and sold themselves to do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger.

[Atown]

for real life magic, alot of the time that power comes from demons, and well demons=evil. video games i have a semi neutral position. im like CCGR i prefer bashing stuff up close but will use a lock pick spell or a divine intervention scroll.

[MaxX]

If I play an rpg (which is a rare event for this die-hard fpser), I only use "holy magic", such as paladin stuff, healing, etc.. No dark combat spells, thanks. Besides those are the n00b. Stop casting your lame fire balls and use a hammer, like a real man. http://www.cgalliance.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif http://www.cgalliance.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[satjome]

I agree, maxx, i always use the light side in jedi knight, and others

[SSquared]

Quote[/b] ]I agree, maxx, i always use the light side in jedi knight, and others


Ya hear that Kidan? Use light side!!!! http://www.cgalliance.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

Just a little background, Kidan uses dark side and was nailing me in Jedi Outcast. Truthfully, the best way to get good at light side powers is to play against someone using dark side powers.

I tend to stay away from most magic oriented games. If necessary, I will use some magic, but when creating characters, I tend to be warriors/fighters. I have a problem with some of the magic because, to me, some of the spells are things we shouldn't even be joking about.

This is a fine line and each one of us has a different stance. I have no problem with Star Wars and the Force, while I know others may consider the Force a no-no.

[satjome]

My brother tends to lean towards the dark side, killing droids and good guys that shoot him

[Atown]

*in deep breathes* Maxx... Maxx.... I am your father. http://www.cgalliance.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif http://www.cgalliance.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif http://www.cgalliance.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif for me i have no proplem with the "force"

[TrigunX89]

Quote[/b] (Dr. Tek @ Feb. 07 2004,8:36)]Lol, I started writing this, then saw you alread said my main point, beat me to it. . .
Heheh.  I've learned from you then.  http://www.cgalliance.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif


Anyway, I usually don't use magic on any games.  Occasionally, if I'm about to die, and I have no other choice, I will use a healing spell.  It also depends on the game.

Like in RuneScape, for example.  I used magic until I grew to level 33, just so that I could slay the dragon and wear a rune platemail.  (Which is the strongest piece of armour in the game.  You would have to play the game to really understand...)  However, I never really used it after that, except maybe to teleport if I am lazy, and I never used it against anyone in the game.

[Byblos]

Magic in games is different then real life magic, real life magic has to do with demons, but in games its usually that the people have this extra power, no demons involved. I use magic in games fine, Even though im always a warrior i dont see why not. In real life you dont have MP to use to cast spells, so it cant really be compared, they are completely different kinds of magic. just like card tricks, are they evil?

[Drelin]

Quote[/b] ]I really don't understand why everyone here has this unreasonable fear of magic.

Neither do I. Apparenly there's a belief that God will hold people resonsible for things that they didn't do and that never took place. And I think that places all of us in a lot of trouble...

[Atown]

eh, its been a while since ive seen a post like drelin, and i cant remember the answer i had a while back for the same question, >_<

[CCGR]

God holds us accoutnable for our actions and motives, he will be just and noone will question his judgement as it will be fair and righteous

[FIR3]

Magic is evil in real life...especially magic the gathering....its so stupid its evil....Magic in games is OK.

[Moonblade]

Quote[/b] (FIR3 @ Mar. 19 2004,9:02)]Magic is evil in real life...especially magic the gathering....its so stupid its evil....Magic in games is OK.
"magic in real life" http://www.cgalliance.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif
I think magic only exsists in games, books and movies. I don't think anybody in real life was ever able to cast a fireball, create a thunderstorm or something else. Okay I know some people who buy some books about magic and stuff but unless they show me it really works I'd say it's a waste of their money.

[Jango]

Basically, I feel that magic is people using the power of demons.

[MaxX]

I think he means the occult in general.

[Drelin]

Uh, technically speaking, the Christian faith falls under the label of 'occult' in general since it deals in the invisible and supernatural; the occult.

Of course, I assume you're refering to the stigma people have attached to the word 'occult,' not what the word actually means, yes?

[Moonblade]

Quote[/b] (Jango @ Mar. 28 2004,4:03)]Basically, I feel that magic is people using the power of demons.
Magic has got nothing to do with demons.

In the past, people used the word "magic" for all things they couldn't explain. Using a lighter 500 years ago would be called "casting fire". As technology and science advance, magic automatically disappears because mankind doesn't need "magic" anymore to explain things. But still people (without education) think magic does exsist. African tribes think the locomotive is a device made by the devil and taking a picture of a friend will steal his soul......... http://www.cgalliance.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[FIR3]

Quote[/b] (Moonblade @ Mar. 30 2004,12:03)]Quote[/b] (Jango @ Mar. 28 2004,4:03)]Basically, I feel that magic is people using the power of demons.
Magic has got nothing to do with demons.

In the past, people used the word "magic" for all things they couldn't explain. Using a lighter 500 years ago would be called "casting fire". As technology and science advance, magic automatically disappears because mankind doesn't need "magic" anymore to explain things. But still people (without education) think magic does exsist. African tribes think the locomotive is a device made by the devil and taking a picture of a friend will steal his soul......... http://www.cgalliance.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif
hmmm....im going to Africa! Time to freak out some people! WOOT! http://www.cgalliance.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[TrigunX89]

Well, I just hope they don't spear you or something. Sorry, maybe that wasn't appropriate...

In real life, yes, I think magic does come from demons. In games, it often doesn't, but just remember that games are not real.

[Moonblade]

Quote[/b] (TrigunX89 @ April 01 2004,2:16)]In real life, yes, I think magic does come from demons.
What has "magic" got to do with "demons"? Only one thing: neither of them exist in real life. http://www.cgalliance.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[TrigunX89]

Well, I do believe that magic and demons exist in real life, and they are both related.

[Moonblade]

Quote[/b] (TrigunX89 @ April 02 2004,4:26)]Well, I do believe that magic and demons exist in real life, and they are both related.
sure....and I "believe" in UFO's, werewolves, ghosts, vampires, dragons and zombies http://www.cgalliance.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif
If you see one, be sure to make a picture and show me. http://www.cgalliance.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif
How old are you?

[TrigunX89]

I'm 15. And it's in the Bible.

[-Drelin]

TrigunX89, have you had first hand experiences with magic or demons that could not more easily or simply be explained without attributing those experiences to supernatural forces?

[Moonblade]

Quote[/b] (TrigunX89 @ April 02 2004,7:04)]I'm 15.  And it's in the Bible.
Strange because last time I read it, I didn't find anything about zombies, vampires or werewolves.

[TrigunX89]

If you look back in history, you will find that vampires exsisted. Count Dracula was a real person also. I don't think they could turn into bats though lol.

I do not believe in zombies or werewolfs. Demons, however, I do believe in. My Bibles' translations don't mention demons, but they do mention devils. (which I think are basically the same) Try these verses.

Matthew 8:16, and Matthew 8:28-33.

[TrigunX89]

Ok, I found another one. Thank God for the concordance!

James 2:19 - "You believe there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that - and shudder."

Also, the verses I posted in the last post mention "demons" in the NIV Bible. They are called "devils" in the King James Version, which I was originally using.

[Drelin]

And could you answer my question?

[TrigunX89]

Quote[/b] (-Drelin @ April 04 2004,9:27)]TrigunX89, have you had first hand experiences with magic or demons that could not more easily or simply be explained without attributing those experiences to supernatural forces?
Oops, sorry. I forgot about your question. I can't recall having any personal experiences that I'm aware of, but I do believe in what the Bible says.

[Moonblade]

Quote[/b] (TrigunX89 @ April 06 2004,2:35)]Oops, sorry.  I forgot about your question.  I can't recall having any personal experiences that I'm aware of, but I do believe in what the Bible says.
And do you also believe that "earth" isn't round and is the center of the universe?
You shouldn't believe EVERY single word used in the Bible. The Bible is something you should try to understand (the deeper meaning) instead of believing every word you read without thinking about it.

James 2:19 - "You believe there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that - and shudder."
The author wanted to say there's only one God. He didn't say demons really existed but used the word as an expression.

"magic" has nothing to do with devils or demons. Ars magica was used long before christianity made his way in Europe in many other religions. Celts and druids used it to honor nature and recieve blessings from mother earth. Basically it's just another way of praying and has nothing to do with "demons", "devils" or whatever.

Btw. am I the only European on this forum?

[TrigunX89]

Actually, the point of the verse was not to point out that there is one God.  It was talking about the fact that having faith without deeds does not make you a good person.  It's not enough just to say there is one God, but you should let your actions show it too.  That's how I interpreted it anyway.  He was using "demons" literally.  Even if he hadn't, what about Matthew 8:16 - "When evening came, many who were demon-possessed were brought to him, and he [Jesus] drove out the spirits with a word and healed all the sick."

If not from demons, or evil spirits, where do you think magic comes from?  And why should I not believe in every word the Bible says?

[FIR3]

Quote[/b] (TrigunX89 @ April 01 2004,2:16)]Well, I just hope they don't spear you or something. Sorry, maybe that wasn't appropriate...

In real life, yes, I think magic does come from demons. In games, it often doesn't, but just remember that games are not real.
ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!! http://www.cgalliance.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.cgalliance.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Moonblade]

Quote[/b] (TrigunX89 @ April 06 2004,8:27)]That's how I interpreted it anyway.  He was using "demons" literally.  Even if he hadn't, what about Matthew 8:16 - "When evening came, many who were demon-possessed were brought to him, and he [Jesus] drove out the spirits with a word and healed all the sick."

If not from demons, or evil spirits, where do you think magic comes from?  And why should I not believe in every word the Bible says?
So you also believe people can be possessed by demons? http://www.cgalliance.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
You are starting to sound like my grandmother who never got any education.
As I told you before people used words like "demons" and "magic" for things they couldn't explain. Why do you think you never see such things on TV or read it in the newspaper anymore although those so called demon-possessed people were so frequently in the "old" ages? Because doctors now call it "epilepsy" and cure it with medication!
I hope you aren't one of those people who think burning thousands of people accused of witchcraft 3 centuries ago was actually a good idea.

And what did you mean with: "If you look back in history, you will find that vampires exsisted." That's plain stupid. The fact that it's based on a true story (count Dracula) doesn't mean vampires existed.

Magic didn't came from demons or evil spirits, it came from people. If you think magic works in real life, give me ONE example and don't give me some quote from the Bible this time. You should stop reading books and look around you.

You shouldn't believe every word because God or Jezus never wrote the Bible, people wrote the Bible and they DO make mistakes and I can find lot's of examples in the Bible. The Bible was translated in so many languages and rewriten so many centuries. It's hard to believe the Bible as it exists now is errorprone. In the 13th century people in West-Europe started making statues of Mozes with tiny "horns" because of one mistake a translator made.

[TrigunX89]

Yes, I do believe that people can be possessed by demons.  As for vampires, take a history class.

As a Christian, my faith is in God and in His Word.  (The Bible)  Does that mean I know everything?  No, not at all.  But I choose to believe in it, and try to understand more of it.  The Bible was written by people, but I believe God put the words in their mouths to write.

[Moonblade]

Quote[/b] (TrigunX89 @ April 07 2004,11:39)]Yes, I do believe that people can be possessed by demons.  As for vampires, take a history class.

As a Christian, my faith is in God and in His Word.  (The Bible)  Does that mean I know everything?  No, not at all.  But I choose to believe in it, and try to understand more of it.  The Bible was written by people, but I believe God put the words in their mouths to write.
It's funny some 15 year old boy is telling me to take some history class. http://www.cgalliance.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
I already finished school many years ago and my teachers never mentioned a vampire. I guess you are an American boy who knows nothing of European history. "Dracula" as you know him was a creature invented by Bram Stoker (1897) and it became the example of countless stupid stories that were to follow. Stoker came across the name "Dracula" in a history book he borrowed. The book metioned a 15th century Romanian hero, a prince of Wallachia, nicknamed Dracula who fought against the Turks. A footnote in the book said that the word Dracula came from the Romanian word for "devil". Stoker liked the name and changed the name of his vampire to Count Dracula. -> meaning Count Dracula never existed, he's just a character in a book.
YOU go take a history class!

Ofcourse the Bible was written by people inspired by Jezus and his God but those letters were translated and rewritten for more than thousand times. The Bible is full of errors because of it and God didn't correct that. Earth is round and it isn't in the center of the universe.

[Jango]

Quote[/b] ]The Bible is full of errors because of it and God didn't correct that.
I see. So if the Bible has errors, how do we know what's true and what's not? How do we know then that Jesus died and rose three days later? How do we know that God created the world in six days?

Quote[/b] ]All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness. -2 Timothy 3:16

Quote[/b] ]In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.-John 1:1

[Drelin]

Good question, Jango! You don't actually know what's true and what's not. That's where faith: belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence, comes into the picture.

And using the Bible to prove the Bible doesn't really work. You see that, don't you?

[Jango]

Quote[/b] ]
And using the Bible to prove the Bible doesn't really work. You see that, don't you?
I know, I realized that after I posted it..heh.

[Eon]

<Sergeant Barnes voice>"Magic? What d'y'all know about magic?"/<Sergeant Barnes voice>

Seriously guys, I've never seen ANYTHING like AD&D style magic. And I've never seen a demon either. I find it quite interesting that Christians and Atheists are debating whether magic comes from spirits or demons or does/doesn't exist at all, when none of you have seen any of the three things in question!

Eon

[Jango]

Just because you haven't seen something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. http://www.cgalliance.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[Eon]

Well, experience is by definition subjective. But if anyone on here knows more than I do about magic they've been fairly quiet about it thus far... ;)

Eon

[TrigunX89]

I think what Jango said was really good. Just because you can't see something doesn't mean it's not there.

You can't see oxygen, but you know it's there, because we need it to breathe. You can't see Carbon Monoxide, but you know it's there, because it can kill us. (Oh, I guess I don't have any good examples...) But anyway, nicely said Jango.

I've found plenty of things that lead me to believe whole-heartedly that God exists, and that what the Bible says is true.

[Drelin]

Oxygen and carbon monoxide can be observed, detected, tested and so on. What magic have you observed and tested? What demons have you come into contact with? And no, the mentally ill do not count; sorry.

Here are some good examples of carbon monoxide poisoning (http://news.google.com.au/news?q=carbon%20monoxide%20poisoning&num=20&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&safe=off&sa=N&tab=wn).

[TrigunX89]

Like I said before, I haven't had any personal experiences with magic or demons to speak of.

[Eon]

Sorry Drelin, whenever people talk about magic I'm very careful to point out that the only data I have are subjective experience. That's why I don't make a big deal out of people telling me that it CAN'T exist, except to point out that I've experienced things that make me believe otherwise.

The kind of magic I've experienced is very general in nature. Divination works by providing me with an aspect of the situation that the Runes consider important to consider. Healing has never been anything stronger than taking away pain in my personal experience. The contact of spirits - well, they do say that when you look hard enough you tend to find what your looking for - but the feeling is indescribable.

Better the lie that exalts us than ten thousand "truths". ;)


Eon

[Drelin]

Sure, I understand. I don't think that magic can't exist, I just haven't seen anything that makes me think it does.

[SeaToad]

Quote[/b] ]And using the Bible to prove the Bible doesn't really work. You see that, don't you?

2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness...

[Eon]

1 Eon 11:57 - Your mileage may vary. Objects in the mirror may appear closer than reality. Subject to status, terms and conditions. Not applicable in the state of Iowa. Plus postage and packing.

[Jango]

Um, SeaToad, you missed his point. You can't use the Bible to prove the Bible.
Quote[/b] ]1 Eon 11:57 - Your mileage may vary. Objects in the mirror may appear closer than reality. Subject to status, terms and conditions. Not applicable in the state of Iowa. Plus postage and packing.
heh..

[SeaToad]

Maybe I'll have to put it in bold this time...

2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness...

[Eon]

Quote[/b] (SeaToad @ April 17 2004,9:07)]Maybe I'll have to put it in bold this time...

2 Timothy 3:16  All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness...

1 Eon 11:57 - Your mileage may vary. Objects in the mirror may appear closer than reality. Subject to status, terms and conditions. Not applicable in the state of Iowa. Plus postage and packing.

In case the sarcasm is missing its target, what I'm trying to say is that writing something down and then quoting it as its own proof of veracity is not very intellecutally rigorous.Even if you use bold type.

[Pabmeister]

Example of Virtual Reality
Blackmage > Everything else in final fantasy.


Just so you people get the connection here...Blackmages arent real, nor are the things that happen in final fantasy (heh...notice the fantasy part?). But they still own the game ^^

real "Magic" = A rigged trick to make you belive something that isnt true.

And i belive i read in the bible somewhere David drank from the horn of a unicorn...or something. I'll go look it up, the passage and all. I dont think unicorns Exist.

Just think about it.

[Drelin]

Ha!

Thanks for the comic relief, SeaToad.

Wait... you were using irony to demonstrate how absurd using the Bible to prove itself is, right?

[SeaToad]

I thought you two knew what reproof means... I geuss I overestimated.

[Jango]

For those who do not know,

Quote[/b] ]re*proof n : blame or censure for a fault

[Drelin]

Quote[/b] ]thought you two knew what reproof means... I geuss I overestimated.

I know what reproof means. I don't know what point you're making, though. Timothy said that scripture is good for a whole bunch of things, including reproof. So what? I'm afraid you'll have to just come out and explain your position to us instead of dropping Bible verses, then emphasising a certain word and insulting people when they don't say hey lololz i geuss ur right then. teh bible reely does prove itself.

[Eon]

Now I have to have my vocabulary questioned by someone who can't spell guess? ;)

Eon

[TrigunX89]

It's fine to debate things like this, but let's not start making fun of people, OK?

[Eon]

I didn't. Start that is.

Eon

[TrigunX89]

Wow, I know this is pretty old, but I just wanted to clear something up.  Earlier when I was talking about believing that vampires existed, I didn't exactly mean the way you may think of them.  By vampires, I basically meant people who killed others, drank their blood, and did some pretty twisted stuff.  I didn't mean they were undead, or could turn into bats. I also didn't mean that you had to use a stake, or holy water, or something like that to kill them. Anyway, I hope I cleared that up.  And I still may be wrong. I don't claim to know everything. I've just heard stuff about them... No, it wasn't on tv. Oh well, I'm just rambling. Feel free to comment. I gotta get some sleep...

[Flashon]

then the admins should stop saying those "admin-wands http://www.cgalliance.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif"

[cjm]

It's no more possible to scientifically prove that magic, demons, God, etc. don't exist than that that they do exist. Science cannot prove a "universal negative" because it is impossible to simultaneously and instantly analyze the entire universe. On the other hand, immaterial objects and ideas cannot be scientifically examined and documented, and therefore cannot be proven.
The Bible contains many statements and teachings that it is therefore impossible to scientifically prove; however, in EVERY SINGLE CASE where it is possible to test a statement in the Bible, the Bible has been 100% correct. If you don't believe me, check out this site: http://www.crosstv.com
and listen to the "Authenticity of the Bible" episodes. It's a record no other ancient or modern document can come close to matching.
Quote[/b] ]Ofcourse the Bible was written by people inspired by Jezus and his God but those letters were translated and rewritten for more than thousand times. The Bible is full of errors because of it and God didn't correct that. Earth is round and it isn't in the center of the universe.
That's not the brightest comment I've ever heard, Moonblade. Ever hear of the Dead Sea Scrolls, among other things?

[runningfish007]

moses really parted the seas...? ummm no...


what about like healing and other divine powers...isnt that magic...it sure sounds like it to me...but it's on God's side so it doesnt count rite? am i right?

I don't really see anything wrong with magic.
I don't think magic is evil.
If u read about it to learn about black magic u would know that to study black magic u must first learn white, and supposedly only people who are pure of hearth can truly learn white magic. Ofcource this is all witchcraft. Some of it pretty interesting, there was a whole witch craft section at chapters and I must of read for hours.
Has anyone seen David Blain, he broke the head of a chicken and then put his hand over the head and the chicken came back to life again. I haven't figured out how he did that. But some of his tricks are amazing.

In the olden days people used to mix herbs together for cures for illnesses, now after science studyed these herbs they found out that they have medicinal properties. But back then that was considered magic.
I think what we think is magic now can be figured out by science in the future.
U know I spent an hour concentrating on a pen trying to move it. All I got was a head ache. But some people can do it. I think.

[TrigunX89]

When Moses parted the sea, it was really God parting the sea for Moses. God gave Moses the power to do that.

Where does "magic" come from? I believe it either comes from God or from Satan. David Blain just plain scares me. I can't figure out how he does what he does either. Witchcraft? Maybe. I've wondered about that.