Petition

[iamscott]

Okay, here's the deal. The ESRB is an organization full of corruption. They don't do their jobs. Explore their website a little to check this out. I feel that something needs to be done about this, and that we, as consumers and Christians have the power to do this. Is anyone with me? I want to know exactly what we are petitioning against because, frankly, my thoughts aren't all together at the moment. I'm on deadline at the school newspaper, so I'm stressing just a little. Please let me know what you think about this, and if any of you have any ideas about what the petition should represent.

Thanks.

[CCGR]

we should have some things we request be changed
For example:

Actually play the games instead of watching a video
Mention swearing
Mention sexual themes/inuendos

[Dr. Tek]

yeah, especially that last part, i just played XIII, rated m, but only for blood and extreme violence, very fake blood and animated violence it shoulda been, but there was some nudity, excessive swearing, the f word was in there many times, and every enemy had a tendency to yell the s one evertime he saw the main character, but yet none of this stuff was mentioned at all in the content descriptors, so pretty much that they need to examine the whole game, not just selected parts.

[iamscott]

It was that bad??? That's odd, especially when a game like the original Max Payne, which had gratuitous usage of the word 'freakin' in it was rated M for Blood and Gore, Violence, and Strong Language. You'd think that they'd rate it like that.

Cheryl, I am in the process of writing a commentary for a (hopefully) exclusive newsletter. It could just be the commentary. But it has to do with the petition and the messed up ratings and morals in the game industry. Tell me what you think about that idea.

[Dr. Tek]

yeah, it was that bad, the blood and violence wasnt all that bad, it was just the other stuff that they did not mention on the content descriptors. this stuff kinda ruined the game, as with out it, it would of been much better

[satjome]

Yeah, and zone of the enders and it's m, for violence,blood and gore and there wasn't any blood and gore. The ESRB rates cutscenes which can be skipped

[CCGR]

newsletter blurb sounds great but we would need a page with more information

[iamscott]

Okay. I'm in the process of polishing up the commentary. It really isn't a 'blurb' per se. Um. It's more... ...well, it evolved from a two-page thing, into a five-page commentary. I've just got to organize it a bit more, and then I'll submit it to you. There's also some stuff I've got to fix, but it's not major, and won't take very long.

[CCGR]

well for the newsletter I'd say we're starting a petition against the ESRB you can read about it her and post your commentatry. should this get it's own subdomain on CCGR?

maybe http://esrb.ccgr.org ?? thoughts?

[Dr. Tek]

if we plan to get the word out, having a url ppl can see is related to the petition will halp in a psychological sense, making the petition seem mre legit.

[CCGR]

submitted the request for the subdomain, anyone want to do the html?? I can whip somehting up if needs be.

[Dr. Tek]

probly would be best to put up a temporary page or 2 to start with to give ppl something, while a more thurough page(s) are being worked on. if u guys need any html coding, or javascript or perl for that matter done, let me know, so i can set aside some time to work on it. it would probly be best for a simple non cluttered design, as to not detract from the purpose of the petetion, but to enhance the content to really stick out and make it easier to read. finding a good color scheme and fonts can add immensely to a readers comprehension and lvl of trust they have in wht they are reading. so it would probly be best if u were to just put up something temporary so we can then have time to put someting really good together while not delaying the petition any longer then it needs to be. just a thought, anyways.

[CCGR]

yeah hardest part will be the deciding on how to handle people adding their names to the petition.

[Dr. Tek]

a basic cgi script and a text database could accomplish this, as could asp and php, but i never really looked too much into learning them, as i perferred integrating javascript and per; together to achieve similar results.

a form posting info to a a script that records it to a .txt or whtever file type for that matter, or to an sql database if anyone feels like setting that up, then a subroutine/function that displays a page with the petition reslts, and also add in email capabilities to notify whoever that a person has signed the petition, and a confirmation for the signer. it really doesnt have to be overly complicated to work well, ill see if i can throw a basic example of something like this together over the weekend and ill put it on my site so ppl can test it out.

[CCGR]

ok here's a site I whipped up. What do you think? http://esrb.ccgr.org

[Dr. Tek]

looks good, this is off to a good start. this weekend or next, ill work on updating my site and make a section for this too, then u can add that to the partners section. i havent touched my site in a while, but im gonna be adding some new stuff to it soon, and ill add a section stating my support for the petition on there too.

its
SVG Tek (http://www.svgtek.com/)

btw, its really outdated rite now, but im gonna be workin on it over the next week. good job on the site tho, looks good.

[iamscott]

Cool. I will get the commentary to you pretty soon here, and try and get the word out somehow. I was thinking of trying to write to some magazines. Maybe they'll publish the letters, and then some people will see that we mean business. Personally, I don't think that the ESRB is acceptable in any way, shape, or form as it stands today. If we can change the way games are rated, maybe then people will also see the wrong that some games have in them, thusly enabling people to make smart gaming decisions.

Many people do not care about ratings. They say 'The ESRB doesn't mean anything.' Well, guess what, people. It does mean something, and it is an important part of the way that families buy games. I hope that the government will make it so that kids cannot buy Mature rated games, and I hope that a standard will be set about the ways that games are rated. Everything about these ratings have changed so much in the past decade. Some games should definetely have been rated Adults Only, games like Soldier of Fortune and BMX XXX. I have Christian friends whose parents don't even know the kinds of games that they are into. I know for a fact that they would not let their kids play Devil May Cry, or Mortal Kombat: Deadly Alliance if they knew what the content of those games are. Hey, but I'm getting way too into this. I already said a lot of this in the commentary.

I think that the website is a great idea. The main problem I see here is that most secular gamers will think that the site is set up by a bunch of radical, conservative Christians who don't play games, but just complain about them. Either that, or they will dismiss us as just gibberish when we show this to them. What ways could we show them that we are serious? How will they know that we aren't just a bunch of people complaining about Grand Theft Auto? I don't see any way at the moment, but perhaps some of you have some ideas. Not that I'm trying to hide my faith, but we need to be able to reach out to these people, yet not discourage them at the same time. We need to be welcoming, but not too much so. And most of all, we need to show these people, these 15-25 year old gamers that, besides objecting to the ESRB, we are humans, and not perfect Christians like the world expects them to believe.

I will compose a letter to Ziff-Davis Media, owners of gaming magazines such as GMR, EGM, XBN, OPM, and Computer Gaming World and tell them and gamers about us. I will also write a letter to Nintendo Power and GamePro to tell them about us. It is my hope that these letters will reach the desired audience, and then we can make action. Someone else should find out how many votes we need to have in order to make a difference. Any volunteers?

[CCGR]

there is no Christian reference other than the CCGR partner and hosting. But CCGR has host other non-Christian domains.

This site will be worthy of a /. post when you have your commentary ready.

[Atown]

i was kinda hesitant to veiw this topic, but im glad i did, esrb is one of the worst rating companys ive seen in a long time. several games are over rated while others are under rated. hmm that reminds me to work on a game review for some odd reason.

[MaxX]

theres a petition website somewhere...cant remeber the url

[CCGR]

didn't see one on Google

[MaxX]

you need to look harder http://www.cgalliance.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif http://www.petitiononline.com/

[Dr. Tek]

why put it on there with a lot of other clutter, sides, by putting it there, and therefore drawing ppl to their site, not so good, cuz i dont know about u, but i dont agree with some of the other petitions on there. best to keep it separate from that.

[Atown]

agreed i checked out the site and it seemd like there were more anti christian petitions then there were pro christian stuff. i would agree having it seperate. and ur right there is a lot of clutter, i saw a petition for stoping wombat abuse:laugh: http://www.cgalliance.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[Eon]

Before you all rush about getting the infrastructure laid down and whipping up zealous fervour, don't you think you should agree on what it is, precisely, that you intend to achieve.

I mean, despite increasing the amount of influence that the government already has on parenting. And do you intend to keep this petition secular, or are you bound on enforcing your religious opinions as well as your moral ones?

[CCGR]

secular, I don't want them commenting on religous stuff, not their scope, but they should mention more than violence when there is more than just violence. The did not mention the sexual and nudity references in Duke Nukem:Manhatten Project for example

[Dr. Tek]

they do miss a lot, as in the nudity in XIII, nothing said, as well as for its over use of certain words starting with f and s, and many others, while saying its rated m for intense violence and blood, when the violence, well ive seen more violent t rated games, and that xii looks like a comic book, and the blood is as fake as can be, being at most 2 shades of red, and the way it was odne makes it obvious that they intended to make it look fake, so they rated the game m for false reasons while missing the ones that actually would make it m, just becasue they did not play thru the whole thing. if u play thru some other games, u will find similar anomalies in the rating descriptors compared to the actual content of the game itself.

[Eon]

Fair enough. In Europe we use a different organisation, and they have rating criteria for various issues - including language and nudity. IMHO the voluntary rating system works quite well over here - It sounds as if commercial pressures have been brought to bear more in the US (surprise, surprise!) and perhaps a drive to have existing criteria more properly enforced is in order.

I noticed that US Retaillers have adopted a system whereby they are working harder to ensure no minors get M rated games. Perhaps if parents took a hand too, this might be stopped without legislation. You should always be careful about creating new laws - if you legislate once on a subject, you will always need to legislate on it in the future, and the whole place goes to the lawyers! ;)


Eon

[satjome]

The ratings organizations in the U.K. and ratings boards in the other countries do a MUCH better job.(XIII was rated 13+ for violence,blood and languge)

[Dr. Tek]

it seems all organizations that rate games have overlooked some parts of XIII, but as with some other games, giants citizen kabuto for example, each country has a different version, usually the U.S. gets the most highly censored version.

[Atown]

well ya know the Rated M thing doesnt really work since u always have a parent buying the product, the product easly gets into the hands of minors. i saw in a video game rental store this kid bout 10 years old renting GTA3 and played it since his dad rented it. it was really sad:(

[Dr. Tek]

u dont have to have a parent, im 16, and have bought a few m rated games with no parent, never had any hassle bout it either. they can sell them to u, there is no laws requiring them to check id or anyhting.

[iamscott]

Hey, Eon. I was wondering what happened to you. I really started to miss those heated debates we had back in the day.... http://www.cgalliance.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Anyway, I'm just fed up with the ESRB in general. You have their misleading rating occurring all over the place, affecting buyers and their decisions, and then you have the politicians, saying things about different games based, partially, on the ESRB's no good rating system. I'm really tired of ratings just being so...general. I mean, you never would have known that State of Emergency had decaptitations in it, unless you saw screen shots, or read the reviews.

Here's some 'news' from the ESRB website:

New York, NY—The Entertainment Software Rating Board (ESRB) announced advances to the computer and video game rating system today designed to provide parents and other consumers with a new and unprecedented level of detail about game content. The changes include the addition of four new ESRB content descriptors—short, standardized phrases printed on the back of game boxes that alert consumers to content elements that may be of interest or concern—and new, bolder labels intended to draw consumer attention to those content descriptors. The rating system changes were developed in consultation with experts from both inside and outside the interactive entertainment software industry, including child development experts and family advocates.

“The ESRB is continuously searching for ways to make computer and video game ratings even more helpful to parents. These changes ensure that consumers have the information they need to make informed purchasing decisions,” said Patricia Vance, President of the ESRB.

New Content Descriptors
Effective immediately, ESRB has added four new content descriptors to the 26 that already exist. The new descriptors will help consumers more precisely evaluate the extent and intensity of violent content in computer and video games by distinguishing between the kind of animated violence that frequently appears in children’s cartoons and the realistic-looking violence that may appear in advanced M-rated (Mature) titles intended for gamers 17 and older. The new content descriptors are:

Cartoon Violence, defined as “violent actions involving cartoon-like characters. May include violence where a character is unharmed after the action has been inflicted.”

Fantasy Violence, defined as “violent actions of a fantasy nature, involving human or non-human characters in situations easily distinguishable from real life.”

Intense Violence, defined as “graphic and realistic-looking depictions of physical conflict. May involve extreme and/or realistic blood, gore, weapons, and depictions of human injury and death.”

Sexual Violence, defined as “depictions of rape or other violent sexual acts.”

Consumers using the ESRB web site’s rating search feature may incorporate these content descriptors into their game search parameters. For example, parents can generate a list of M-rated games that did not receive “intense violence” or “sexual violence” content descriptors. Last year, 63 percent of games rated by the ESRB received an E (Everyone) rating, 27 percent were rated T (Teen), 8 percent were rated M (Mature), and 2 percent received an EC rating (Early Childhood).

Professor Kimberly Thompson, Director of the Harvard School of Public Health’s KidsRisk project and the author of several studies about entertainment rating systems, advised ESRB on the rating system changes, adding, “the specificity of the ESRB’s new violence-related content descriptors is a major advantage of the computer and video game rating system. Armed with this new level of detail, parents are better equipped than ever to exercise their own judgment and decide which games are appropriate for their children.”

New Rating and Content Labels
The ESRB also announced that effective September 15, it will require the placement of new labels on the back of game boxes. The new labels draw consumer attention to both the age rating and content descriptors assigned to game titles by the ESRB. The new labels are more prominent, visible, and informative than the labels they will replace. In addition, ESRB rating symbols will continue to be published on the front of all game boxes.



“This change is designed to ensure that parents can't miss the critical content information printed on game boxes, which frequently provides greater insight into why a game has received its rating,” explained Patricia Vance, President of the ESRB. “To get the most from the ESRB rating system, parents should check both the rating symbol on the front of the game box and the content descriptors on the back. When parents check the rating and the content descriptors, they know exactly what they’re getting.”

Changes to M and AO Rating Icons
Also effective September 15, the ESRB’s “M”(Mature) and “AO” (Adults Only) icons will be modified to include the minimum recommended age for each rating category. The categories themselves are unaffected by this modification, only the icon design will change to ensure that consumers better understand the designated age ranges for these categories.

And more:

WASHINGTON B U.S. Senators Herb Kohl (D-WI) and Joe Lieberman (D-CT) today commended the new, voluntary computer and video game ratings improvements announced by the Entertainment Software Rating Board (ESRB) to give parents and
retailers more information about violent content of games. The new guidelines include more precise descriptions to alert consumers to violent content - distinguishing between cartoon and more graphic violence -- and bolder labels to make it easier for consumers to determine whether games are appropriate to sell
to and be used by children under 17.



"The changes announced today will help parents make more informed decisions when purchasing games for their children. And we are hopeful that the addition of specific age guidelines to the rating icons will make it easier for retailers to enforce the rating system, as many have committed to do but which few are doing
reliably," Kohl said. "It's important that parents check the rating
information on every box before bringing computer and video games home to their families. Although the ESRB rating system contains the most information of any rating system in the entertainment industry, it can only be effective if retailers recognize and enforce it and parents understand and use it."



"I have always said the ESRB system was the best rating system in the entertainment media, and these changes will make it even better - more informative, more precise, and more enforceable for retailers," Lieberman said. "I appreciate the ESRB's ongoing commitment to helping parents make smart choices for their kids. I hope parents will return the favor by making better use of these better ratings, for in the end they have the primary responsibility
to protect their kids from potentially harmful games. And I hope retailers will finally accept their responsibility to help parents do that job, and commit as an industry to stop selling adult-rated games to kids."



For nearly eight years, Lieberman and Kohl have been working with the video and computer game industry to help keep violent, graphic and adult videos out of the hands of kids. At their insistence, the video game industry has developed entertainment's best rating system, has applied that rating system uniformly to the packaging of every video game sold in stores, and has promulgated aggressive anti-targeting provisions aimed at keeping the advertisement of violent, Mature-rated games away from children.


Sorry, folks, but if Lieberman was truly knew what the mistakes that the ESRB are, then he wouldn't feel that way. I'm all for keeping violent games like Manhunt out of the hands of minors, but I think that if he wants to really see what is going on, Lieberman needs to play the games. Nothing against Lieberman. I just find it...kind of pathetic, really.

[Dr. Tek]

lieberman is only trying to win votes by using an issue that most ppl are misinformed on, u can tell he really dont give a care about the issue other then the votes it mite win him next year. politics these days are thoroughly sickening, and b4 u know it, esrb will be some government agency, and unless somethin is done about it soon, this will keep going on for a long time http://www.cgalliance.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

[iamscott]

Hold on, man. This isn't about politics, and this isn't about whether your political loyalty lies in the Democratic or Republican parties. (Me? I'm a Whig. http://www.cgalliance.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif Just kidding.) Anyway, the truth of the matter is that what we are seeing here is the fast decline of family and moral values. You can't say that Lieberman or Kohl are incorrect because they just want votes. If that is the case, then they are alienating themselves from the younger set that is just starting to vote. No, I believe that Lieberman is on the right track with what he says, he just doesn't see the problems that the ESRB has because he doesn't play video games. What Lieberman wants, I think, is to see a change in the way the media presents itself in the mediums that it uses to reach the general population. What I don't want to see is the ESRB becoming a government agency: that is exactly what I believe that Lieberman will try to do if he gets into the presidency. At the present time, however, Lieberman is just trying to preserve the well-being of the youth of this nation, and that is a noble cause. Maybe we can try and contact him to show him what is wrong with the ESRB; he might just change his tune a little. What we cannot do, however, is become hostile to him. That would be very tactically unwise, and will thus cause us to take a step backward. No one here wants that, right?

[Dr. Tek]

im not, i was just replying to the other message, he has the rite intentions and motives probly, wouldnt know unless i was him for sure, but unknowingly chooses to listen to a not very good source of info on the subject, as do many ppl, and it just goes to show that its not only parents falling for wht esrb claims to be doing. trying to come up with a solution to this problem is to keep it away from the political side bcuz of wht some ppl would do with it, and to keep it as voluntary ratings, but ones that actually stand up to the product that they are put on. i mean, i looked at all the games i own, quite a few, round 50 or so, then compared the rating and descriptors to the actual content of the game, and sadly enuf, most of them were far off towards the worse side, as in it would say mild violence, but ave a lot of blood and gore, yet this was never said and vice versa for some games that were rated higher for things not even in the game, such as in ghost recon, rated m for violence blood and gore. there s violence, yes, and some pixelated blood, but no gore wht so ever. a lot of games like this have been misrated also. again, all this has been said, by all of us, and i think now we all know wht we are trying to do, so it would be best if we actually start doing something now probly.

[satjome]

same thing with splinter cell

[Dr. Tek]

wht was with splinter cell? that was t, for good reason too, thats one game i actually agree with the rating, altho they coulda put mild language on the descriptors tag probly

[Serpentine_Cougar]

hey, this is my post! nice site and forums, really 'preciate a good christian gaming environment.

About this ESRB petition, here's an article you may want to read, it's related to this, see what the author says:
http://gamespy.com/editorials/december03/reportcard/

[CCGR]

good article and welcome! glad you like the site!

[Dr. Tek]

read the article, it had some good points in there, some about the underrating issues, and from a company as notable as gamespy, thats good to hear, yet the didnt mention anything about how innacurate the ratings are http://www.cgalliance.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif. again, my example of XIII. when i buy a game thats rated m, if its only for blood and gore and violence, with in reasonable limits that is, i have no problem buying and playing the game. when i checked the content descriptors of the game, and after playing the demos, i thought that the inrtense violence and blood may have been an overstatment, as the blood was monotone and violence, well, the game looks like a comic book, so i thought it was yet another game that was probably rated m for only some parts in it, as were other games such as halo, where the reasons for the m rating are not apparent until later in the game, but after playing XIII, wht i had suspected about the content descriptors was rite, they were overstated, yet they lacked to 2 ones that would make the game m wihtout everything else, and these would be the 2 that would keep parents from letting their kids get this game, whch many have since it looks like a comic book or cartoon. there is execessive use of the f word, and all enemies in the game, nearly every other word out of their mouth beigins with s, as in everytime some hear u move or see u, thats all they will say. nothing of this was mentioned as a reason for it being m. the other one is its depictions of nudity, as there is one part in the game where you have to go through to progress through the level, that contains drawings of naked women. there is no way to avoid this area, as it is the only way to progress, and again here, esrb said nothing. many parents will let their kids buy this game, because most are not as concerned with violence as they are with these other 2, and sadly, games that contain them are hardly ever given the content descriptors for that, and no one knows until they play the games for themselves. all this also applies the other way around, where some content descriptors can not be found in a game thats labeled woth them. so esrb's ratings are pretty much useless to accomplih their "goal" whch they say is to inform ppl on the content of games.

[iamscott]

Well, yeah. I mean, look at Conker's Bad Fur Day on the N64. That was one game where the rating was inexplicable. I mean, it was rated M, but had a warning that said no one under 17 is allowed to play the game because of explicit content. That's pretty stupid, if you ask me. As for the example of XIII, I haven't seen or played it. It looks to me as if this game might deserve an R rating if it was a movie. As for the nudity, it really depends on the situation. Many famous pieces of art include nudity. If these paintings are replications, or representations, of classic or contemporary art, then I see no problem, save for the rating descriptors. However, if the nudity borders on explicit, such as in The Matrix Reloaded, or Gangs of New York, then, yeah, there is a problem with that. If the nudity is just something that the developers stuck in there for the sake of being that eternal hormonally challenged teenager, then that is also a problem. However, I do believe that suggestive themes and mature sexual themes have appeared in games for far too long, and that the ratings in such instances are quite inappropriate. As for the language ratings, I have seen PG movies with worse language than many games out there, and I think that the ratings need to be adjusted as such.

About Splinter Cell, how exactly did that rating fit? Yeah, the game should have been rated Teen, and the violence and some language was there: however, what's with the blood rating. If you shoot people, no blood. There is one mention of blood that was not objectionable, and I do not see a problem with this game as it is. It certainly is one of the better games of the past two years.

[Dr. Tek]

the nudity in the game was no clssic art. it was in a mens locker room, and it was pictures of women stripping, that is as far from classical art as u can get. splinter cell on the pc does have blood, but its very pixelated.

[Serpentine_Cougar]

maybe CCGR should have some kind of rating system that is put along with a game's review, but better/more complete than ESRB

[iamscott]

See, that's the problem. We could, but would it mean anything to anyone besides the limited viewership of CCGR? (Sorry, Cheryl. The viewership is very limited compared to the reach that the ESRB has.) Sure, it would mean something to us, but it would be more of a quick fix, or a patch, instead of a real solution to the real problem that the ESRB represents in this country.

Hey, Dr. Tek, I wasn't trying to imply that the nudity was classic art. If you read the post above, you will likely see that I said it depends on the situation. It seems to me that from what you described it as, the nudity was just stuck in there for the sake of the eternally hormonally challenged teenager. That's been a problem since, what, the days of Duke Nukem on the PC? Those games had tons of nudity in them, despite there being a parental filter stuck in the game for kids who wanted to play the game without all the naked women.

What I see that needs to be done is what I've said. We need to get something going to fix this travesty known to us as the ESRB.

Hey, CCGR, I've got the commentary finished. Just so you know. Should I send it to you via email, or should I upload it to the site?

[Dr. Tek]

sry bout that, i just reread thru the way i wrote it, misworded it some, and it sounded wrong, nuthin meant by it other then just reply how it was depicted. i occasionaly forget to read thru my posts to see if they are worded the way i meant them.

[CCGR]

e-mail it to me imscott. I know CCGR has a targeted audience, no offense taken. Still very proud of it's success. http://www.cgalliance.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[iamscott]

Cool. Will do. Uh....now the problem is to get the data onto my parents computer, because mine doesn't have an internet connection.

Just to get off topic a little, you remember how my computer was all messed up? Well, I got a new one, and then, this is just great, my CD drive breaks. Fun. How I'm going to fix that, I don't know. I'll probably just buy another drive with a CD-RW on it, but it still kinda stinks.