Problems with Alliance

I'm sorry guys I don't do this lightly but I have some problems with the rules in the Alliance. I'm told over and over that gold selling, scamming, botting, using macros is against Alliance rules yet whenever anyone is found doing so, nothing happens.

I do not feel comfortable staying in an Alliance where this is tolerated so for now I have left.

This morning someone asked for help selling his account. Myself and a few others told him it was against TOS, but we were ridiculed by a member of [cros] who said we were just trying to scare him. He states that buys and sells accounts and gold all the time and nothing has happened to him. He then procedured to help the person sell his account.

This isn't the first time stuff like this has happened and the leadership tolerates it. I've been told before that if it was a member of [SOE] then action would be taken but we have no authority over other guilds in the alliance. Sorry but those are people I'd rather not be allied with.

They DO have control..they can tell the allied guild to remove this person..if they do not then remove the offending guild from the alliance. I hope this gets resolved quickly and according to alliance rules..

the best way would be to screen shot and report directly to Anet. That is a pure confession. Even if we didn't do anything, that should guarantee a ban. Getting banned from GW is a much different thing than the Alliance.

flat wrong..that person should be removed form either the affiliated guild and if the guild wont' comply the guild should be removed. What good are the alliance rules if the alliance leadership won't enforce them irregardless of what ANET says? They mena nothing and the alliance becomes a laughing stock...which relfects poorly other alliance members who have abided by the rules,...toj...cga...and also your own personal ministry becomes tarnished. Too large of consequences for my comfort.

TheRaven said:

I'm sorry guys I don't do this lightly but I have some problems with the rules in the Alliance. I'm told over and over that gold selling, scamming, botting, using macros is against Alliance rules yet whenever anyone is found doing so, nothing happens.

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Ah, the crux of all problems plaguing the Christian gaming community... We set up rules and never follow them...

I do not feel comfortable staying in an Alliance where this is tolerated so for now I have left.

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Good for you. Standing up for what you know is right! Rock on Brother!

This morning someone asked for help selling his account. Myself and a few others told him it was against TOS, but we were ridiculed by a member of [cros] who said we were just trying to scare him. He states that buys and sells accounts and gold all the time and nothing has happened to him. He then procedured to help the person sell his account.

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This is not cool. Sure it may be easy and a fast way to earn cash, however it is against the rules of the game!!! Nothing may have happened to him yet... there is this lovely verse in the Bible

Numbers 32:23 said:

23. "But if you fail to do this, you will be sinning against the Lord; and you may be sure that your sin will find you out.

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I am frankly shocked and appalled that a member of the Alliance would act in this manner.

This isn't the first time stuff like this has happened and the leadership tolerates it. I've been told before that if it was a member of [SOE] then action would be taken but we have no authority over other guilds in the alliance. Sorry but those are people I'd rather not be allied with.

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Sounds to me like the leadership of the alliance needs to be called on the carpet for allowing these things to happen... If you have another Guild in the alliance not following the rules that they agreed to when they joined, that guild needs to go. Period. No ifs ands or buts about it! We are not to judge people, however we can judge their fruits, and apparently [cros] is showing their true colors by not doing as they were instructed! I mean when you install the game you have to agree to follow the TOS... Why is that so hard?

Raven I applaud you for sticking to your guns. I wait to see how this gets resolved as it may affect how the [GFC] has dealings within the alliance...

Something for our next clan meeting.

God bless, thank you for bringing this to the attention of others.

Stc95 said:

the best way would be to screen shot and report directly to Anet. That is a pure confession. Even if we didn't do anything, that should guarantee a ban. Getting banned from GW is a much different thing than the Alliance.

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Anet shouldn't have to be brought in until we are unable to solve this ourselves.

banning from the alliance should always come first.

Hescominsoon said:

flat wrong..that person should be removed form either the affiliated guild and if the guild wont' comply the guild should be removed. What good are the alliance rules if the alliance leadership won't enforce them irregardless of what ANET says? They mena nothing and the alliance becomes a laughing stock...which relfects poorly other alliance members who have abided by the rules,...toj...cga...and also your own personal ministry becomes tarnished. Too large of consequences for my comfort.

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See my reply to Raven and you will know my feeligns are in line with yours.

I think according to what is said in the OP SoE leadership have nothing to answer for. Raven, as much as I like her has not produced evidence in the form of screen shots and the head of SoE has not had a chance to respond yet. Indeed, we dont know if a admin for cros was available or on site at the time nor do we know if thing nothing is being done behind the scenes. Not that I dont believe Raven but you cant expect the leadership to go around banning guilds or demanding members of other guilds get banned if you only have the word of one person. The appropriate thing should have been that this got brought to cros admins first and if that could not be resolved to admins of SoE and if it could still not be resolved then something could be said. But without screen shots or someone else coming forward to say what was done I don't see how anything can be done.

I honestly think that DZwart should be given a chance to deal with this before everyone goes running for the pitchforks. I was in SoE for a year and never saw anything of the sort go on. The one time somebody did try to sell his account while I was there he was shut done by the rank and file as well as officers very quickly. There are people on this thread trying to give SoE leadership a hard time and the thread was just started. My advice is to step back let DZ and others handle it, and if they don't get back to you to PM them first requesting whether things have been resolved or not.

In any case I am with STC, this sort of thing should be reported to anet with screenies for them to ban. If such actions are dealt with only at the guild lvl, such actions will only move onto another and the same thing will continue and thus the guild by overstepping its authority by not reporting to anet with evidence would be allowing this sort of thing to continue.

PPar has wise words. I like and respect the leadership of SoE. I like the entire alliance and I hate to leave it. I really want to come back, but I also don't want this to continue. This isn't the first time I've seen gold sellers and cheats in the alliance. One of the offenders is even an officer (None in SoE/SOE though). I've mentioned it in the past to various officers and pretty much everyone agrees that they hate that type of stuff too. Yet the offenders are still in the Alliance.

As far as this morning is concerned, you're right. I don't think any cros officers were online. I spoke up but was told to mind my own business. There was an SoE officer online and he backed me up in Alliance chat. Perhaps I was a bit hasty in leaving, but I'm just tired of nothing being done besides talk in the officer forum. There was an incident several months ago. Someone was complaining about the Drunkard title. It's one of the tougher titles to achieve because of the time involved. Someone spoke up and said there is a cheat you can download that will get the title for you. Several kids spoke up and asked for help getting the cheat. I said something, but nobody backed me up and I was basically told to shut up. I know there was talk about it in the officers forum, but I didn't have screenshots. What really hurt is that several officers were online at the time and none of them spoke up and helped. A few have sinced apologized to me though and said they would speak up next time

I guess this is next time. I appreciate the help I got from Orry and Ducky this morning and I have screenshots for Derk to review, but I didn't get the entire conversation. If this can be resolved I'd love to return to the alliance, but unless action is taken this time, I intend to stay away. We have a lot of young kids in the alliance. I think the guy trying to sell his account this morning is young. They don't need to exposed to this garbage. He's going to sell his account and then wake up one morning and find he's been banned. He'll feel betrayed by his supposed friends that lied and told him "it's ok, nobody will know".


If this had been the first incident I would have followed channels rather than leave, but it isn't. It's not even the 2nd incident. I hope it is resolved this time. I'm not asking for any guild to be kicked but I also think gold selling and botting is serious enough that the offenders should be kicked, even if they are officers. However, like the offender this morning said to me, it's not my alliance and I don't get to make the rules.

I am an officer in SoE. My name is Joey. I was online at the time of 9:50 am this morning, the approximate time this occurred. I was busy trying to hero/hench Elona Reach on my survivor. Raven is a personal friend of mine and we were talking via whisper. Since my main focus was to remain alive, I didn't notice the commotion occurring in Alliance until Raven whispered me saying "Can you help me here?" I immediately pressed ` to see what she was talking about. I didn't think quick enough to cap screens, though I know that Raven did. I started a thread on the officers forums immediately after the incident. I am a witness to what occurred as well as Orry. The three of us (Orry, Raven, and myself) tried to explain how this course of action was against so many rules and regulations, to which the person scoffed and said "it's just to scare you". I understand that Raven is still a little upset over this and that she will more than likely post screens when she has had a chance to calm down. I agree with Hescominsoon and Eskimo. While the actions suggested by the player were to my knowledge never carried out, he openly confessed to multiple TOS and EULA infractions. Seeing as the alliance has rules in line with ANET, I believe that we should follow our rules, and if the problem cannot be resolved, then bring in ANET. I am glad that Raven has stood up for what she believes in and has taken such a stand.
Joey.

Wow, I wish I had been on this morning to see this. I was at church then we had a potluck.

Raven, you are the person I consider to have recruited me to this guild. I didn't know about SoE/SOE until you told me about it on guru. I hope you'll reconsider and come back. I have a high amount of respect for you and agree that infractions like this should not be tolerated. To me, cheating in the game is the same as cheating and stealing in real-life. For some of the young ones, if cheating is ok in a game, then it must be ok to cheat on tests in school and shoplift small items from stores. It's all WRONG!

I would like to see the screenshots. Was the person trying to sell their account a member of [cros] as well? The person from [cros] telling you to mind your business was way out of line and not consistent with being a Christian.

Personally, I haven't seen anything like this being discussed on alliance chat, but I'm not always on and sometimes too focused on a quest or mission to pay attention.

the_great_eskimo_pie said:

Anet shouldn't have to be brought in until we are unable to solve this ourselves.

banning from the alliance should always come first.

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actually I disagree. If there is truly someone going against the EULA, Anet should be notified first. If they get banned from GW, then it kills two birds with one stone doesn't it? While it'll take a few days for us to get all our ducks straight, Anet can find the logs, tract the sales, and ban the players much faster than we can. After they are banned and we have our work done, then we can kick the now useless account.

The real problem is that player undermining Anet and GW by selling accounts. Getting kicked from the Alliance is not going to stop him. However, getting banned from Anet sure will!

Remember, its their job to ban people, its my job to go to school and learn.. and do my homework.. and chores.. and anything else my parents tell me to do.

I originally posted this in the officer's forum in response to Ducky's thread, but decided it was relevant here too.

My opinion is that talking about selling an account and actually doing it is two separate things. Unless I have proof that they have actually sold the account, I have to assume that they are innocent of selling it and hope that we talked them out of it. Even if Manny had actually sold accounts, I'm not sure how giving ANet this account name would help since we don't have the names on the accounts he sold or even Diego's other account that he intends to sell which ANet would want/need to support banning him.

HOWEVER...

The fact of the matter is that selling an account (or botting from Raven's other example) is against the ToS. It can not be endorsed by the guild or alliance leadership and should not be discussed in alliance chat for the sole reason that it implies that it is acceptable.

Also, there is another glaring issue here that no one seems to be commenting on or addressing:

TheRaven said:

we were ridiculed by a member of [cros]

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I can not and will not tolerate this type of behavior. I expect a higher level of respect from my 6 year old son.

I agree that something needs to be done/said to [cros] and [WWJD] about both the discussions of ToS violations and harassment. I have not seen screenshots, which are typically required, however, based on what I have read, I have no reason to doubt what Raven (or Ducky) have posted.

I understand Raven's reasons for leaving the guild and will welcome her back, but please be aware that this is not a recommended way to handle a situation.

Let me see who's online before I decide on any action.

I have also posted the following on the x-fire site titled "Alliance Policy on the GW Terms of Service"

The official terms of service from ArenaNet (makers of Guild Wars) that each person who plays the game agrees to is that the following activities are NOT allowed in game:
-Buying or selling in-game gold for anything of value outside of Guild Wars.
-Buying or selling of an account.
-The use of bots in any shape or form.

Any of these actions can result in an action by ArenaNet up to and including a permanent ban on your in-game account AND if those actions benefit other players, such as gifts given by the gold buyer, could result in the ban of the other person's account as well.

Discussions supporting any of these activities are PROHIBITED in alliance chat simply because allowing them has the appearance of acceptance. We STRONGLY suggest that no member of any of the member guilds participate in any of these activities and if discussed in alliance chat, you risk being kicked from your guild, or if you guild leadership refuses to take action, the guild may be kicked from the alliance.

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TheRaven said:

I'm sorry guys I don't do this lightly but I have some problems with the rules in the Alliance. I'm told over and over that gold selling, scamming, botting, using macros is against Alliance rules yet whenever anyone is found doing so, nothing happens.

...

This isn't the first time stuff like this has happened and the leadership tolerates it.

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the_great_eskimo_pie said:

Sounds to me like the leadership of the alliance needs to be called on the carpet for allowing these things to happen...

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I have seen no sign of anyone tolerating anything, Raven. The only times I have seen anyone ask about buying or selling an account or gold, there has been a resounding response from everyone that you do not do it. Period. (Until Manny, of course.) Everyone I have seen ask has given every sign that they do not intend to do it once we as an alliance speak out. If anyone has anything concrete they can tell us about anyone else in the alliance who is doing this or has done it, please PM one of us and let us know.

I'm glad people ask before doing it, because it gives us the chance to tell them that it is wrong. It's a violation of a contract, and it's a sin. I'm sure there are quite a few people who consider it but never ask. When they see it come up in alliance chat, they find out it's wrong, too. I would not support punishing someone who asks about it out of ignorance but doesn't do it once they know it is wrong.

DZwart said:

My opinion is that talking about selling an account and actually doing it is two separate things. Unless I have proof that they have actually sold the account, I have to assume that they are innocent of selling it and hope that we talked them out of it.

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This is a tricky one, as we discovered upon further examination of the EULA and ToS.

I am glad Diego actually asked about selling the account before taking action. I also hope that the members of the alliance who spoke up succeeded in showing him that doing so would be wrong.

The situation with Manny is different. Merely stating that he has sold accounts and gold may be a violation of the EULA and the ToS, even without proof that he has actually done so.

Guild Wars Terms of Service said:

10. You may not advertise the intent to or commit the act of buying, selling, trading, sharing, or transferring access to any Guild Wars account for real-world cash or for in-game gold or items.

11. You may not advertise the intent to or commit the act of buying or selling gold or items for cash.

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Depending on how they chose to interpret it, "advertise the intent" could be interpreted to apply to past sales.

The matter is not being ignored; however, until the matter is resolved it would be irresponsible of us to comment on what action is being taken.

the_great_eskimo_pie said:

We are not to judge people, however we can judge their fruits, and apparently [cros] is showing their true colors by not doing as they were instructed!

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You are doing a disservice to them by blaming the entire guild for the actions of one player. Stating that "[cros] is showing their true colors" when we don't even know what actions the leadership is taking is unfair and libelous, not to mention premature. Even if the leadership doesn't do the right thing, it's still unfair to the membership as a whole.

Based on what I am reading from DZwart and MaidMirawyn it seems the situation is being addressed and I'm confident it will be resolved.

I hope TheRaven will reconsider leaving. We need people of conviction to stick with it - not walk away.