Church Piracy, Thoughts and experience?

Check this video

Church Planting
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHc5aFx64Mo

Discussion thought,

Have you seen this happen? What were your thoughts at the time regarding the issues? Was it a positive outcome or was it just a negative thing? How should/can church planting be done better in this respect?

Getting people away from Ed into a more Biblical chuch with much more sound teaching and the members are feed meat and not sermons about sex and pirates is a good thing... how's that bad?

Hey, not sure if you have personal issue with Ed, but there is a heart behind messages like this and ive seen this happen multiple times and it takes years for churches to recover from it. This actually is a real issue and something we should be aware of.

I have no doubt that there is an under lying issue but the pulpit is hardly the place to air it. Though it shouldn't surprise me coming from Ed Young... not like he has a track record of preaching the gospel every week anyway.

I want to make certain that I don't misunderstand this video or the context in which the message was delivered.

Did the pastor deliver this message during a time set aside for Scriptural teaching, or was it delivered in a time set aside for internal church business?

I have to admit that this video, like the church marketing video, made me cringe a bit. I've long asserted that communication breaks down at the point of assumption of intention. It seems that the pastor is assuming the intentions of those planting a church. It also seems like his frustration, which may be entirely justified, is spilling over into areas where it shouldn't.

I'm not saying that he shouldn't address the issue of local church leadership trying to steal members from other local churches. I'm just questioning the choice of time and platform for delivering the message.

EDIT: The tireless journalist in me was jumping up and down throughout the entire video, screaming that there are two sides to every story. While I agree that people, in general, tend to favor the victim in the modern American culture, it seems like the pastor was using the pulpit to vent rather than teach spiritual truth. Again, though, I don't know if this message was delivered during a time reserved for sermons or if it was recorded during an internal church meeting.

Interesting takes on the video. I'm not a big Ed Young fan - but I don't dislike him either. When I watched the video I assumed it was at a conference - probably a conference of people looking into church planting - not a Sunday morning pulpit moment. Different context allows different types of sharing.

Two things: first it seemed to me that Ed had been hurt in the past, maybe even the recent past, by a staff member or someone he was close to taking a group from the church and starting another. That is a hurtful thing if the group is not sent but secretly gathered within. It is a lot like a divorce occurring.

Second - I heard him saying, if you want to start a church go start a church, don't rob another church to do it. That would be very appropriate to give that advice to give potential church planters.

Abba San said:

Interesting takes on the video. I'm not a big Ed Young fan - but I don't dislike him either. When I watched the video I assumed it was at a conference - probably a conference of people looking into church planting - not a Sunday morning pulpit moment. Different context allows different types of sharing.

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If that is the context, it certainly puts the message in a new light. That would also explain why he's sitting down instead of standing behind the pulpit.

To me, the point of if its a sunday deal or a conference should make no difference, the point is the same, and there is an honest heart behind it as well. During a sermon a pastor might quote C.S Lewis or some other theologian or even Christopher Hitchens to make a point. All though they are not clearly "scriptural" , not everything from a pulpit is 100% biblical because your trusting your pastor to have read the bible and help interpret and teach it to you.

Why should a video be flamed for not being 100% perfect, but the heart behind it understood.

Now to church piracy, not all the time is it malicious. One of my previous churches did it in full cooperation and help and support. it was the end result of struggling numbers and how specific issues were handled was the heart ache that ensued and created the division. I had been apart of another church that really did have a malicious or divisive intent to split the church over biblical things and really caused serious church disension (sp?).

Regardless of how a situation was handled, how can we plant churches better to avoid these issues? are their techniques or processes that should be followed better? what are your personal experiences?

"All though they are not clearly "scriptural" , not everything from a pulpit is 100% biblical because your trusting your pastor to have read the bible and help interpret and teach it to you."

Exactly - good point. Much of Jesus' teachings were not 'Scriptural' when he gave them - they were parables and illustrations to make his point. If it is based on the Bible - furthers the Bible - illuminates the Bible - faithfully, it is biblical.

Atown said:

To me, the point of if its a sunday deal or a conference should make no difference, the point is the same, and there is an honest heart behind it as well.

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It may be my upbringing, but I feel like internal matters like these should not be addressed at length from a public platform.

It's not a perfect comparison, but I remember the church my wife and I joined in St. Louis would have brief meetings after Sunday morning services for members to discuss church business.

On the flip side, I can see the argument that church splits affect the whole church, so there's cause for addressing the matter in front of the whole church.

We aren't given the full context of the video, so whether or not the pastor was delivering the message using an appropriate platform is something of a moot point.

The more important issue to address is how to prevent church "piracy" when planting new churches.

Atown said:

Now to church piracy, not all the time is it malicious. One of my previous churches did it in full cooperation and help and support. it was the end result of struggling numbers and how specific issues were handled was the heart ache that ensued and created the division. I had been apart of another church that really did have a malicious or divisive intent to split the church over biblical things and really caused serious church disension (sp?).

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I've been fortunate not to have been involved in a church split or attending a local church during a split. The closest experience that I can use to help relate to the situation is when Tribe of Judah's Counter-Strike chapter was in its prime and groups of members left to form a separate clan. Each situation differed, but I remember being frustrated in some cases. I felt as though there was plenty of work to do in Tribe of Judah; why were members leaving to do their own thing instead of helping out?

I don't recall any particularly nasty situations, but I also remember that most members that struck out on their own and formed a new clan closed up shop within a few weeks. I didn't let it stress me out, we stayed the course, and Tribe of Judah is still around today. I don't hold any ill will toward those who left to strike out on their own nor do I get particularly upset remembering that season of Tribe of Judah's history.

I know my experience doesn't compare with the heartbreak and frustration the pastor in the video seems to have suffered and it is certainly not my intention to make light of it. I just wanted to share my own story since Atown asked for people with experience with church planting and church splits.

Atown said:

Regardless of how a situation was handled, how can we plant churches better to avoid these issues? are their techniques or processes that should be followed better? what are your personal experiences?

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I think distance is a key factor. Less distance = more friction.

I think consistent communication and transparency between all involved parties is also key to avoiding any misunderstandings.

Not having been involved in any church plants (with the exception of attending a joining a church that was a church plant, which is a bit of a reach because the church had been established a few years before I first started attending) or church splits, I don't feel I have any practical advice to add to the conversation, so I'll hush now and wait for more informed people to post.

Putting aside the topic itself for the moment, my thoughts on this video are:

1.) The assertion that someone would get sued in a professional environment for leeching people is false unless they have contracts in place. For example, McDonald's doesn't exactly hand out BPAs to line workers to prevent them from recruiting after they've left. Just a bit disingenuous.

2.) He seems to be exceptionally proud. Proud to the point where he refers to these lost members as his people rather than His people repeatedly. At the end of the day, leaders of the church do not own their congregation...they're not their property nor their creation. Honestly, it was a little stomach turning to watch.

Back to the point at hand...I'm not sure I would consider it stealing when it's not your property to begin with. Putting it back to his business reasoning...if people were purchasing another product or service, I'd want to know why and what gap my product or service has. He sounds a little like AT&T suing Verizon over the truth

Actually - in most professional circles (lawyer, doctor, advertising, Wall Street, engineering, firms) there are contracts and laws preventing disgruntled employees from taking clients to start their own firm. I think that is what he was referring to, not a McDonald's franchise.

Second - I don't know if Ed Young has pride problems or not. However, it is not pride, but a sense of call, responsibility and privilege that I think of the people entrusted to my care as my people. I haven't forgotten that we are all God's people. Similarly I often introduce my wife as, my wife, and have been introduced by others as, my pastor. Neither I nor the other person is claiming ownership. But if you came to entice my wife away from me - I'd accuse you of stealing my wife.

As I said in an earlier post - the guy has obviously been hurt by someone he trusted and he is taking this moment in a training context to be transparent and 'let it all hang out.' I'm sure that whatever happened - even if they took a couple of hundred people away - it didn't affect their numbers or finances. His is a mega mega church. It was the principle of the thing - being deceived and hurt by someone he trusted.

He's simply saying don't start a new church plant that way. That church has probably sent out hundreds of people to start new churches. There is a difference between being sent and pirating off with a bunch of people.

I must confess I haven't watched the video, but I'm going to chime in anyway. Consider this thoughtful trolling.

If you were (or in some cases are) a pastor, you're running a church and investing a lot of work into it.

One day, one of your congregates comes up to you and says "hey, why don't you start preaching about ____? ____ is very important to me." You say, that's great but I'm supposed to be following the leading of the spirit and he seems much more interested in me preaching about _____ instead.

This keeps up for about a month. Then that person announces that you do not care about _____ and starts a new church to focus on ______ and many of your congregates go to that person's church instead.

That would hurt.

I realize that's not the only way it can happen, but it's really a bad thing when someone who is supposed to be under your care grabs a bunch of people from your congregation to start a new one. I'd opine that it strongly breaks the proper way for churches to begin.


I'd not criticize that guy for being hurt. It hurts. Yes, it hurts the ego, but it hurts other things too. Betrayal sucks in general. Especially betrayal of what should be a holy call.

This thread and the other marketing thread are starting to get more and more similar as time goes on.

I think nattyg said it best...

Nattyg said:

...Back to the point at hand...I'm not sure I would consider it stealing when it's not your property to begin with....

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Granted, I haven't seen the video yet as I am in a class right now, but later I will watch it.

If a church is Gods house, then whats the harm in going from one to another to worship?

(I bet it probably has something to do with money... )

One of the problems with jumping from church to church or stealing sheep is that it goes against our design. God seems to have designed us for deep relationships and deep community. It can be really hard to connect with other Christians these days and bouncing around only makes it harder if not impossible. This can happen outside of the church, yes, but I feel the Bible points towards God intending the Church to be the place this happens.

The Christian life is magnified so much more when you enjoy it with people that know you deeply and know your inner struggles. People that are on their knees praying for you through-out the days. Guys that keep you accountable and are seeking to see your heart's desires fulfilled.

I think this is a much bigger deal then the loss of potential revenue.

I understand what you mean, but I disagree.

When that plan was engineered, Christianity was illegal and the church was literally the ONLY place where Christians could talk and commune.

Now Christians can go where we please and worship without having to worry.

I go to a different church now than I did when I was in high school 6 years ago. I still talk to the group of people I hung around with.

I would argue that your community grows instead of suffers when you move and meet new people - thanks to technology we have now.

Edit: Ok... So I'm watching the video and at about 1:20 he starts talking about how it took two people 20 years each to get their popularity to a point to where they could start a church of their own. TWENTY years. This dude seems more like a crybaby at the moment rather than a pastor with a genuine message.

Edit 2: I am at 5:42 and I cannot take any more of it. I cant help but notice his other video he has uploaded... "Lifes too short... To be Negative". Irony lol, I love it!

Anyway, I think it was a sermon. People seemed to act as they would have during a normal sermon as did the pastor - there was no communication from the congregation to the pastor. I wouldn't go to his church... I'd go to the one down the street.

I think I'm with Odale on this. Two families have left our church in the last year for different reasons. I still keep in contact with the kids that were in my youth group. They still come back and participate in events, I still keep up with what's going on in their lives, listen when they have problems, talk when they have questions. Our bonds are actually stronger now because it was teacher/student before... now we're strictly friends that have a bond built on Christ.

I've enjoyed this post - lots of good thoughts - but at this point it doesn't seem to be making much progress - kind of repeating ideas - so this will probably be my last time chiming in.

Anyone is free to go to any church they want, for as long or short a time as they want. I don't know of any pastor who has a real problem with that - even if it hurts.

That is not what the video was about. It is not about a positive move in another direction by a person. No ris it about the ongoing problem of church-hopping. It is about someone, subversively, building a church within a church for the purpose of moving that church out - not as an outreach - not being sent by the congregation - but stealing/pirating, a bunch of people by intentionally turning their hearts against the leadership and direction of the church. He is saying that is not the way to do it. And it's not.

Abba San said:

I've enjoyed this post - lots of good thoughts - but at this point it doesn't seem to be making much progress - kind of repeating ideas - so this will probably be my last time chiming in.

Anyone is free to go to any church they want, for as long or short a time as they want. I don't know of any pastor who has a real problem with that - even if it hurts.

That is not what the video was about. It is not about a positive move in another direction by a person. No ris it about the ongoing problem of church-hopping. It is about someone, subversively, building a church within a church for the purpose of moving that church out - not as an outreach - not being sent by the congregation - but stealing/pirating, a bunch of people by intentionally turning their hearts against the leadership and direction of the church. He is saying that is not the way to do it. And it's not.

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Building on that, I think there is alot to be said for being able to and willing to submit and humble yourself to discipleship under church authority, humble being one of the key words in this instance. I think its when we think we know better than our pastor or feel we need to be fed in a certain way, we're not allowing ourselves to 1. be fed and grow in our christian walk on the personal level with God, nor 2. allowing our pastor to share his heart for the church/community growth.

One of the problems with jumping from church to church or stealing sheep is that it goes against our design. God seems to have designed us for deep relationships and deep community. It can be really hard to connect with other Christians these days and bouncing around only makes it harder if not impossible. This can happen outside of the church, yes, but I feel the Bible points towards God intending the Church to be the place this happens.

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I suppose I would expect that those who left felt a deeper sense of community and shared thoughts and ideals with the group they went to rather than the body they were initially a part of, no?