Fire with Icy Veins?

[7F]LarryBoy

[7F]LarryBoy

New Member
So I was looking at Mages in Second Nature, and I noticed that the ones that are fire have switched to a 2/48/11 or 3/47/11 build, with 11 points in frost to get Icy Veins. I suppose that this sort of build would be superior to 10/48/3 if you don't have trouble with mana, as the 10 points in Arcane is purely for Arcane Concentration.

Thoughts?
 
Mike asked me about this today. I haven't really even looked at it. With my decreased WoW time lately, I'm not sure that switching specs and only popping in to try to raid would be very effective.

I'm not against the idea tho. I absolutely loved Frost spec when I had it.
 
I guess I'm also curious to the casting sequence? Fireball until IV comes up, then frostbolts until it dies?
 
I'm more interested in how much advantage there really is to IV in a raid situation. It seemed to me that it was there to help frostbolts in arena, not to increase raid DPS. I would think that being able to throw more "stats" on gear at damage and rely on the 10 arcane to increase your mana efficiency would have a better effect than having IV. 11 points to get a 20% increase every 2 mins is not a huge DPS boost, just a percent or two.

They would both work, and maybe focusing on stats would help in the long run, since intel is essentially counted x1.6 for mages now, so who knows? I think it's safe to say that it's not a significant enough of a difference to warrant a wholesale abandonment of a 10/48/3 spec, and would require some re-gearing to really min/max it.
 
I'm not sure about the re-gearing. If you're talking about getting more +spell haste gear, I don't think that's going to boost the benefit you get from IV, as %mod talents are generally applied to base stats before gear numbers.
 
Icy Veins is not worth specing out of arcane for a marginal raid damage boost at the cost of mana efficiency. Ya you can pot and mana gem, but I still don't see IV being worth it. It gives frostbolts a shorter casting time which will help in pvp encounters, especially arena. It is rather hard to fit an extra frostbolt in due to pushbacks/interrupts. That extra split second actually makes a difference. The extra freeze chance seals the deal. Marginal boost again for frost mages in a raiding environment. Good talent for its tier, not worth speccing for as a fire mage imo.
 
At 70 this willl be my build

Arcane (9 points)
2/2 Arcane Subtlety
3/5 Arcane Focus
4/5 Arcane Concentration

Fire (41 points)
5/5 Improved Fireball
5/5 Ignite
2/2 Flame Throwing
3/3 Improved Fire Blast
2/2 Incineration
1/1 Pyroblast
3/3 Improved Scorch
3/3 Critical Mass
1/1 Blast Wave
5/5 Fire Power
3/3 Pyromaniac
1/1 Combustion
1/2 Molten Fury
5/5 Empowered Fireball
1/1 Dragon's Breath

Frost (11 points)
2/5 Improved Frostbolt
3/3 Elemental Precision
2/5 Ice Shards
3/3 Frostbite
1/1 Icy Veins
 
or
Arcane (10 points)

2/2 Arcane Subtlety
3/5 Arcane Focus
5/5 Arcane Concentration

Fire (40 points)

5/5 Improved Fireball
5/5 Ignite
2/2 Flame Throwing
3/3 Improved Fire Blast
1/1 Pyroblast
2/2 Burning Soul
1/3 Improved Scorch
3/3 Master of Elements
3/3 Critical Mass
5/5 Fire Power
2/3 Pyromaniac
1/1 Combustion
2/2 Molten Fury
5/5 Empowered Fireball

Frost (11 points)
2/2 Frost Warding
3/3 Elemental Precision
3/3 Frostbite
2/2 Improved Frost Nova
1/1 Icy Veins
 
Arcane (9 points)

2/2 Arcane Subtlety
3/5 Arcane Focus
4/5 Arcane Concentration

Fire (49 points)

5/5 Improved Fireball
3/5 Impact
5/5 Ignite
2/2 Flame Throwing
3/3 Improved Fire Blast
2/2 Incineration
1/1 Pyroblast
2/2 Burning Soul
3/3 Improved Scorch
3/3 Master of Elements
3/3 Critical Mass
1/1 Blast Wave
5/5 Fire Power
3/3 Pyromaniac
1/1 Combustion
2/2 Molten Fury
5/5 Empowered Fireball

Frost (3 points)

3/3 Elemental Precision
 
Arcane (11 points)

2/2 Arcane Subtlety
3/5 Arcane Focus
5/5 Arcane Concentration
1/1 Arcane Fortitude

Fire (47 points)

5/5 Improved Fireball
5/5 Ignite
2/2 Flame Throwing
3/3 Improved Fire Blast
2/2 Incineration
1/1 Pyroblast
2/2 Burning Soul
3/3 Improved Scorch
3/3 Master of Elements
3/3 Critical Mass
1/1 Blast Wave
5/5 Fire Power
3/3 Pyromaniac
1/1 Combustion
2/2 Molten Fury
5/5 Empowered Fireball
1/1 Dragon's Breath

Frost (3 points)

3/3 Elemental Precision
 
what I meant about re-gearing was that with the mana efficiency loss from losing your 10 in arcane, you'd have to get more intel on your gear, losing +dmg, +crit, or +hit. Of these, the +crit is probably your best thing to lose for a fire DPS build, but even then, +crit is another stat that helps with mana efficiency via Master of Elements (30% casting cost back on crits).

The reason you'd lose damage on your gear in the switch is this: With the way that Lloki runs his gearing, I have literally just barely enough mana in my pool to use all three charges of gems, three pots, evocation, and I usually run oom when Prince is at 2-3% or so. If I were to lose the 10% mana bonus through the arcane talent, that means that I go oom when prince is at 15%, not 2-3%...not cool, so I'd have to regem or regear into more intel at the expense of my +dmg, crit, or hit, making me do less damage, losing the point of getting IV in the first place...and I'm pretty sure the marginal +crit from intel would not overcome the loss of stats in other areas.

All that said, it's a SWEET talent for PVP, as stated, and I am only avoiding respeccing into it because Lloki will never PVP unless it's to get a specific piece of gear for PVE...he's too good at nuking bosses, and too terrible at killing horde. For PVP, go a frost 17/0/44 build (imp CS and lots of frost survivability), get Icy Veins, and never look back.

just my 2c
 
yes...i can attest to that...on lurker, before the submerge, and with the scorch debuff at max...i've cranked out 1500-1600 dps with the 2/4x/11ish build

have to say...i love it :)
 
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