Are you willing to admit that you could be wrong?

[Dark Virtue]

This is a subject I've brought up a few times and wanted to bring front and center.

As a Christian, you believe that it is your right/duty to witness to nonbelievers. By doing so, you require that the nonbeliever be willing to do one very important thing: to admit that their theistic outlook/view is wrong. Only then can they be willing to accept Christianity as their religion.

The problem I've run into is that the Christian isn't willing to do the very same thing they require of those they witness to. The Christian isn't willing to admit that they could be wrong. If YOU aren't willing to admit that you could be wrong, how can you expect any one else to do the same. That doesn't seem fair in the slightest.

If everyone you witnessed to was as adamant in their beliefs as you (rightly or wrongly, with or without evidence) then no one would ever change their mind. I've said on many occasions that I am open to the possibility that I could be wrong. After all, by following the scientific method I HAVE to be open to the idea of change, to modify my beliefs according to new evidence. Christians, on the other hand, absolutely REFUSE to admit that any of their beliefs could possibly be wrong.

My point? Why should anyone listen to your arguments objectively if you won't listen to theirs?

 

[Genesis1315]

Well, DV, as a human being I have to admit that I may be wrong about something or another. We are not perfect. We have fallen from Glory. But, what I do need to consider is...Is God wrong? And with Jesus also being God, is Jesus wrong as well? Could He have made a mistake when He said, I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father but through me. Well with that being said and if I were to consider that God is wrong on just point, such as the quote listed, it negates who God is and in turn undermines all of Christianity, Judaism, and may put a dent or two in some other religions. So, while yes, I may be wrong, God is not and cannot be.

Gen

 

[Odale]

The problem I've run into is that the Christian isn't willing to do the very same thing they require of those they witness to. The Christian isn't willing to admit that they could be wrong. If YOU aren't willing to admit that you could be wrong, how can you expect any one else to do the same. That doesn't seem fair in the slightest.

How else would you get any followers if you said that it may be the wrong path to be following in life? (That is basically what you would be doing.)

I've said on many occasions that I am open to the possibility that I could be wrong. After all, by following the scientific method I HAVE to be open to the idea of change, to modify my beliefs according to new evidence. Christians, on the other hand, absolutely REFUSE to admit that any of their beliefs could possibly be wrong.

My point? Why should anyone listen to your arguments objectively if you won't listen to theirs?

I must say that i am not very open to the idea of Christianity being the wrong path to go. If i didnt have faith in my Faith, then what kind of faith is that? But, however, that doesnt mean that i dont have questions about it. Humans arent perfect, so we will never understand why this happenes, or how that happened. We will never be able to understand how God did that or why he did. What binds me to Christ is my faith. With out my faith i am nothing. What binds you to what you believe?

 

[PapaToad]

My point? Why should anyone listen to your arguments objectively if you won't listen to theirs?

My wife once said she liked the banker appraoch, when training a teller at a bank, you never show them a conterfeit bill, you only show them the real deal.

In all my expolration in religous, veiws, beliefs, I have seen some wonderful and powerful things, and nothing ever disproving the truth and wisdom of the Lord Jesus Christ. Could I be wrong and an insane zealot. I could but I highly doubt it. The Lord Jesus Christ is my Rock and my salvation.

I am not wrong DV, the is a GOD, the Great I AM, there is a Lord Jesus Christ who died for YOUR SINS; and he calls to you.

Deep in our Spirit something cries out to connect to be back in the presense of the Almighty God.

Why should anyone listen to us?? I do not know, but we do, they do, something in thier Spirit cried out to be in commune with God, to be purged of oppression; and to know the love of the father.

BUt you have a choice, you do not have to believe; Goodness you don't have to listen.

But you keep comeing back to debate and learn. Funny isn't it

 

[[toj.cc]WildBillKickoff]

The Christian isn't willing to admit that they could be wrong.

You say "The Christian" like we're all the same. I am willing to admit intellectually that I could be wrong. However, to be wrong, I would have to have deluded myself into insanity, because in my heart of hearts, I know the Truth beyond a shadow of a doubt.

So, I admit that the possibility that I am wrong exists... but you will not convince me that I am wrong under any circumstances. I guess that is kind of insane, but so be it.

 

[SLNT_FIR]

Why else would the disciples live and DIE for a LIE! After Jesus died, they had NOTHING to gain from creating a fable that he lives. All they would gain is floggings, beatings, tortures from the Romans, and ridicules from the Jews and all others. A pretty dumb thing to do if you ask me. :0

 

[Dark Virtue]

Well, DV, as a human being I have to admit that I may be wrong about something or another. We are not perfect. We have fallen from Glory. But, what I do need to consider is...Is God wrong? And with Jesus also being God, is Jesus wrong as well? Could He have made a mistake when He said, I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father but through me. Well with that being said and if I were to consider that God is wrong on just point, such as the quote listed, it negates who God is and in turn undermines all of Christianity, Judaism, and may put a dent or two in some other religions. So, while yes, I may be wrong, God is not and cannot be.

Gen

Granted, given that an omnimax being exists, it can't be wrong. The question lies within our understanding of whether such a being truly DOES exist.

Before I answer the rest of the posts in this thread, you have all missed the point of this post. You are asking someone to do something that you are NOT willing to do. WHY should a nonbeliever be willing to admit their views are wrong, thus changing to your view, when you are not willing to do the same? No one has addressed that basic point.

 

[Dark Virtue]

I must say that i am not very open to the idea of Christianity being the wrong path to go. If i didnt have faith in my Faith, then what kind of faith is that? But, however, that doesnt mean that i dont have questions about it. Humans arent perfect, so we will never understand why this happenes, or how that happened. We will never be able to understand how God did that or why he did. What binds me to Christ is my faith. With out my faith i am nothing. What binds you to what you believe?

If you aren't open to the merest possibility that you are wrong, how can you honestly ask someone else to do the same?

What binds me to what I believe? The truth.

 

[Dark Virtue]

In all my expolration in religous, veiws, beliefs, I have seen some wonderful and powerful things, and nothing ever disproving the truth and wisdom of the Lord Jesus Christ. Could I be wrong and an insane zealot. I could but I highly doubt it. The Lord Jesus Christ is my Rock and my salvation.

This exploration that you made, was this before your believe in Christianity. The way you worded your post it sounds like you made a subjective research and not an objective one.

I am not wrong DV, the is a GOD, the Great I AM, there is a Lord Jesus Christ who died for YOUR SINS; and he calls to you.

Thanks for proving my point for me

If you aren't willing to admit you could be wrong, why should I be willing to do admit I'm wrong? Assuming you weren't always a Christian, there had to be a point in your life when you had to admit to yourself that your theistic outlook was wrong in order to be open to Christianity. You expect others to be willing to change, but you outright refuse to do the same.

BUt you have a choice, you do not have to believe; Goodness you don't have to listen.

That's not the question on the table. The question is why I should believe my outlook could be flawed when you aren't willing to do the same.

 

[Dark Virtue]

You say "The Christian" like we're all the same.

I wasn't trying to be overly general, but as you can tell by this thread, this generalization isn't incorrect.

I am willing to admit intellectually that I could be wrong. However, to be wrong, I would have to have deluded myself into insanity, because in my heart of hearts, I know the Truth beyond a shadow of a doubt.

So, I admit that the possibility that I am wrong exists... but you will not convince me that I am wrong under any circumstances. I guess that is kind of insane, but so be it.

LOL, that makes no sense whatsoever. Basically you are saying that you could very well be wrong, but you don't care to know whether you are or not, becuase you're content to believe what you believe, right or wrong.

Back to my point, which you are hammering home, if you aren't willing to admit that you are wrong, EVEN IF YOU ARE, then how can you possibly expect me to HONESTLY admit I could be wrong and embrace your brand of theism?

 

[Dark Virtue]

Why else would the disciples live and DIE for a LIE! After Jesus died, they had NOTHING to gain from creating a fable that he lives. All they would gain is floggings, beatings, tortures from the Romans, and ridicules from the Jews and all others. A pretty dumb thing to do if you ask me. :0

Such is the power of myth.

To first believe what is in the Bible, you have to prove the Bible to be true in every way, and that's something you can't do with outside sources. You can't prove the Bible with the Bible in other words, that's not logically honest.

People have dome some pretty dumb things in the name of their religion. The Crusades, the Salem Witch Hunts, Jonestown, Heaven's Gate, 9/11, ad naseum.

Pretty dumb, don't you think?

 

[Odale]

If you aren't open to the merest possibility that you are wrong, how can you honestly ask someone else to do the same?

God tells us to have faith in him, if i doubted my faith and started to think that there is no Jesus... no Trinity... no God, i wouldnt have faith. If i doubt my faith, then i doubt God... and i would rather not do that.

What binds me to what I believe? The truth.

What exactly do you believe?

 

[Dark Virtue]

God tells us to have faith in him, if i doubted my faith and started to think that there is no Jesus... no Trinity... no God, i wouldnt have faith. If i doubt my faith, then i doubt God... and i would rather not do that.

Understood, but you still have failed to address the topic at hand. If you refuse to doubt your belief, why should you expect anyone else to do the same and be open to Christianity?

What exactly do you believe?

LOL, now that's an open ended question. Ask specific questions and I'll give you specific answers

 

[[toj.cc]WildBillKickoff]

LOL, now that's an open ended question. Ask specific questions and I'll give you specific answers

LOL, now that's a copout if I ever saw one.

 

[PapaToad]

That's not the question on the table. The question is why I should believe my outlook could be flawed when you aren't willing to do the same.

I am not the one questioning my beliefs? I have no problem that you believe that there’s not enough proof to believe what ever it is you do believe. Why should you believe me? You shouldn't, if in you heart of hearts, and deep within your spirit you know I am wrong. Then do not believe. But if there is a shred of doubt that you believe something, you can not hold on too, that in your belief system you are not sure there is a God, I challenge you to keep exploring and sharing.

I am not wrong DV; unfortunately we will not be able to ""Prove"" that to each other, until the final roll call. You can debate and point out logical flaws all you want to the Lord Jesus Christ, but the reality is, He will say "You did know the truth, you had it, You we told the truth and you just doubted me"

Now all your excuses and reasons do not matter a hill of beans. If you want proof. Get back on your face, pray the prayers, and seek God as he commanded you, as documented in his WORD! If you are so still seeking and unsure, then you can say your were right and its all for not, and we're a bunch of Crazy loons.

But we've seen miracles, WE have touched open heavens. We have our faith. To doubt ourselves would be to deny the Lord Jesus Christ. I do not Doubt for and instant His reality. I do not doubt for a minute the Lord Jesus Christ Resurrected from the Dead and He’s alive Today Right now!!, watching and waiting for His perfect plan to come to fruitition.

We can not prove it to you only God can do that, and you have to ask, by HIS, THE Great I AM Rules, not what you think is right, but as scripture and God decrees. You can go through your life complaining and whining about how God won’t show himself to you. But you do nothing to get closer to Him. Do as the bible commands. Seek Him; Cry out to him, pray pray, pray

You say you did, but If God did not come to you its because you did not ask, if you did ask, what Sin was in your life that separated you from God?? Did you fast? Did you really even pray? Were you walking in obedience to God, or were you comforting some sin in your life you did not want to give up?? I do not mean to accuse or put you on the defensive, but we have run this gambit to long.

I have never known the Lord Jesus Christ to desert anyone? Never happened! I have seen many people desert the Lord for there own reasons and twisted agendas. But if you ask he will come, its that simple, If He did not it is because you did not wait on him long enough or you separated yourself from him. Or thirdly you became resentful when he tested you and you gave up on Him. There is no other way around it.

You rules do not matter not matter to the Lord of Creation. His rules do, do it his way, or hit the highway. I will not concede I am wrong, because I am not, My God Lives, He talks to me, He’s healed me, he Loves me and WE are in relationship.

So why should you doubt yourself, you are WRONG. You know enough about our beliefs and bible to know why we think the way we do, why we have the faith we and how to go about getting that Faith and connect yourself to the Lord Jesus Christ. You simply refuse to.

Why should you Believe you perception is flawed?

Because it is. I am not doubting my God, more than that I strive to walk in obedience. But do not act dumb, you could if you choose to connect to God.

But other than that, it doesn’t matter whether you believe me or not. But It Does matter to the Lord He is waiting for you DV. That’s the truth.

 

[Dark Virtue]

LOL, now that's a copout if I ever saw one.

How is that a cop out?

I could spend pages and pages answering what I THINK he wants to know.

If he, or anyone, asks a specific question, I can give a specific answer.

 

[Dark Virtue]

I am not the one questioning my beliefs? I have no problem that you believe that there’s not enough proof to believe what ever it is you do believe. Why should you believe me? You shouldn't, if in you heart of hearts, and deep within your spirit you know I am wrong. Then do not believe. But if there is a shred of doubt that you believe something, you can not hold on too, that in your belief system you are not sure there is a God, I challenge you to keep exploring and sharing.

I am not wrong DV; unfortunately we will not be able to ""Prove"" that to each other, until the final roll call. You can debate and point out logical flaws all you want to the Lord Jesus Christ, but the reality is, He will say "You did know the truth, you had it, You we told the truth and you just doubted me"

Now all your excuses and reasons do not matter a hill of beans. If you want proof. Get back on your face, pray the prayers, and seek God as he commanded you, as documented in his WORD! If you are so still seeking and unsure, then you can say your were right and its all for not, and we're a bunch of Crazy loons.

But we've seen miracles, WE have touched open heavens. We have our faith. To doubt ourselves would be to deny the Lord Jesus Christ. I do not Doubt for and instant His reality. I do not doubt for a minute the Lord Jesus Christ Resurrected from the Dead and He’s alive Today Right now!!, watching and waiting for His perfect plan to come to fruitition.

We can not prove it to you only God can do that, and you have to ask, by HIS, THE Great I AM Rules, not what you think is right, but as scripture and God decrees. You can go through your life complaining and whining about how God won’t show himself to you. But you do nothing to get closer to Him. Do as the bible commands. Seek Him; Cry out to him, pray pray, pray

You say you did, but If God did not come to you its because you did not ask, if you did ask, what Sin was in your life that separated you from God?? Did you fast? Did you really even pray? Were you walking in obedience to God, or were you comforting some sin in your life you did not want to give up?? I do not mean to accuse or put you on the defensive, but we have run this gambit to long.

I have never known the Lord Jesus Christ to desert anyone? Never happened! I have seen many people desert the Lord for there own reasons and twisted agendas. But if you ask he will come, its that simple, If He did not it is because you did not wait on him long enough or you separated yourself from him. Or thirdly you became resentful when he tested you and you gave up on Him. There is no other way around it.

You rules do not matter not matter to the Lord of Creation. His rules do, do it his way, or hit the highway. I will not concede I am wrong, because I am not, My God Lives, He talks to me, He’s healed me, he Loves me and WE are in relationship.

So why should you doubt yourself, you are WRONG. You know enough about our beliefs and bible to know why we think the way we do, why we have the faith we and how to go about getting that Faith and connect yourself to the Lord Jesus Christ. You simply refuse to.

Why should you Believe you perception is flawed?

Because it is. I am not doubting my God, more than that I strive to walk in obedience. But do not act dumb, you could if you choose to connect to God.

But other than that, it doesn’t matter whether you believe me or not. But It Does matter to the Lord He is waiting for you DV. That’s the truth.

Yadda yadda yadda. You said a whole lot of nothing. Basically what you said was that you were right, even though you couldn't prove it to save your life and that everyone else is wrong because you say they are.

That is the grossest example of arrogance I have ever heard of.

You have still avoided the topic though. With the attitude you just displayed, why should anyone take you seriously? Why should someone do something that you aren't willing to do and admit they could be wrong? You expect someone else to change their views but you aren't willing to do the same. Do you understand what I'm getting at? This isn't about you being right or you being wrong, it's about your attitude. It's about the hypocrisy of asking someone to do something that you outwardly refuse to do.

It's infuriating.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Sorry, but I have to address this one point because it upsets me everytime I hear it:

You say you did, but If God did not come to you its because you did not ask, if you did ask, what Sin was in your life that separated you from God?? Did you fast? Did you really even pray? Were you walking in obedience to God, or were you comforting some sin in your life you did not want to give up?? I do not mean to accuse or put you on the defensive, but we have run this gambit to long.

What you are saying is that I wasn't a good enough Christian. I didn't pray hard enough, I didn't pray right, I didn't fast enough, I didn't do this that or the other thing. I'm not alone in feeling this way either, there are many many ex-Christians that feel the same way. Yes, I prayed. Yes, I fasted. Yes, I kept the commandments. Yes, I celebrated the holy days in the Bible. I read the Bible, I studied, I did everything you would expect of a "good" Christian.

And yet, here I am.

 

[Odale]

I want to know what you believe in, what would be your god, what you have so much faith in... i dont know how to word it other than this.

 

[Genesis1315]

Ladies, gentlemen, brothers and sisters in the Lord, I am going to say this only once in this thread. WATCH THE ATTITUDES OR THIS THREAD WILL BE LOCKED.

It has been brought up many times and while I do truely believe, think, know etc that this is a very productive conversation, KEEP IT CIVIL!!!!!

GENESIS1315