Are you willing to admit that you could be wrong?

[URACorpse]

What you are saying is that I wasn't a good enough Christian. I didn't pray hard enough, I didn't pray right, I didn't fast enough, I didn't do this that or the other thing. I'm not alone in feeling this way either, there are many many ex-Christians that feel the same way. Yes, I prayed. Yes, I fasted. Yes, I kept the commandments. Yes, I celebrated the holy days in the Bible. I read the Bible, I studied, I did everything you would expect of a "good" Christian.

I have not read this entire thread but I would only ask this of anyone: Do you believe in Jesus as your savior? (Whoever believes in me will not perish but have eternal life.) Being a Christian does not require you to do anything for salvation except believe in Him. We do the rest because we love Him and search for a closer relationship with our Lord.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Being a Christian does not require you to do anything for salvation except believe in Him.

I think there are plenty on this board that will disagree with you when you say this, the whole "Faith without works is dead" thing. Which leads me to a point I've brought up time and time again: Why do Christians disagree on fundamental points such as this one?

 

[Genesis1315]

but URACorpse is right. All that is required for salvation is to accept Jesus as your Lord and Saviour. Now, if we want to move on to the "Well done my good and faithful servant" Then I think we can start to look at the "Faith without works is dead" It is actually a pretty linear concept (now that I have stopped to give it some thought).

Gen

 

[Dark Virtue]

Gen, you have to agree that there are several Christian members of this board that don't agree with you and URA. They believe that you need faith AND works, right?

This is a fundamental issue that Christians disagree on. Why is that? Interpretation? Are all views right or are some wrong? You say that all you need is to accept Christ, but what about those that disagree with you, are they wrong?

Check this link out:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_savm.htm

What different faith groups say about salvation:

Different Christian denominations have reached conflicting conclusions about salvation. Various faith groups teach that, for salvation:
Faith in Jesus is the sole requirement.
Repentance followed by trust in Jesus as Lord and Savior are the only needed criteria.
Church sacraments, sincerely entered into, determine one's status.
Both faith and good works are required.
Nothing is required, because all are saved and will eventually attain Heaven.

In addition, there are continuing debates about:
bullet The after-death destination of those who have never had a chance to hear the Gospel.
bullet Whether salvation is permanent ("Once saved, always saved") or whether it can be lost through unacceptable behavior.
Within any given denomination, beliefs concerning salvation are clear and unambiguous. It is only when one compares the teachings of different faith groups that the full range of conflicting understandings about salvation become apparent.

 

[Odale]

AArent we straying away from the original argument here guys?

 

[Eon]

I don't see that - the field has been slightly expanded by pointing out that not all Christians think the same thing. The inference is that if there are two Christians here who feel differently about his contentious issue then at least one of them MUST be wrong.

Therefore each of them has a 50-50 chance (at least) of being wrong about a major tenet of their faith. So - given the odds, do you guys feel that YOU might be the "wrong Christian" or can you conceive of how being so would make you feel?

 

[Didasko]

The short answer to your question DV is a resounding NO!

As to the question of whether I should expect anyone to change their beliefs do to any argument I can put words to, the answer to that is also NO.

I cannot convince anyone to become a Christian by anything I say or do.

God opens sinners eyes. Once those eyes have been opened by God, He sometimes uses us to plant seeds or 'lead people to Christ'.

Without the divine intervention of God, not one person in their sinful state can turn to God and truly repent. It takes an act of God.

God leads Christians to repent.

Now my argument is from a Calvinist point of view. Some Christians here may not agree with me. Most Christians in America believe in 'choice'. That we choose God. I believe that God chooses us and we have no choice(this will open a whole new thread I am sure. That being said, from a Calvinist point of view your question is totally irrelevant.

Now to address the question brought up about different beliefs among Christians. Such as works vs. faith. The 'faith without works is dead' argument...bah. For a very high percentage of Christians this is a none issue. It is brought up most of the time by non Christians who don't understand Christianity anyway.

If someone truly repents then they have expressed a desire to change. If there is no change...then there was not true repentance. It is simple. Salvation is not based on works, but if there is faith and true repentance then there will be works. It cannot be any other way. Also, before you argue this point I will answer it If a person has true faith in Christ, there will be repentance.

Now many will say, 'hah...another differing opinion between Christians. You are a Calvinist and others are not!' No big deal. Whether I believe we have a choice or not is irrelevant to my salvation. The differing views on various topics among Christians are for the most part petty and really do not matter in the long run. On the issues that matter we are united.

I've never met two evolutionists that believed everything the same way either(or two atheists for that matter).

 

[Eon]

That's a logical fallacy, I'm afraid. We're not talking about God's favourite colour or icecream flavour - we're talking about what gets you into heaven. In all religions across the world THIS point is the one that's the most clearly defined. Many religions have a bullet pointed checklist. And Christian sects do not appear to be able to agree on it.

And not just shades of grey either - black and white, as in your own example. Your personal theory confuses me greatly. If God makes everything and God is omniscient and omnipotent then why would God create people he has no intention of choosing? What you're saying there is that he designed people specifically for Hell and damnation.

Think about that for a minute and then tell me why on Earth that would be necessary.

 

[PapaToad]

That's a logical fallacy, I'm afraid. We're not talking about God's favourite colour or icecream flavour - we're talking about what gets you into heaven. In all religions across the world THIS point is the one that's the most clearly defined. Many religions have a bullet pointed checklist. And Christian sects do not appear to be able to agree on it.

And not just shades of grey either - black and white, as in your own example. Your personal theory confuses me greatly. If God makes everything and God is omniscient and omnipotent then why would God create people he has no intention of choosing? What you're saying there is that he designed people specifically for Hell and damnation.

Think about that for a minute and then tell me why on Earth that would be necessary.

I can only guess it would have to do with Love, Repentance, and forgiveness. If my son keeps screw up, do I write him off before the end? I mean some would, but I would hope I would see it til the end.

But I could never explain how God does not judge us until the finally curtain call, and we could repent at that last mintue, and as long as we confessed and uttered it, we would be saved.

But your are coorect with Faith without works. In the above senario, he would go to heaven, If I repented and uttered jesus is Lorda nd savior and then proceed to live a life of hedenistic abondon, I would not be "saved" again we come to obedence to God

 

[Didasko]

That's a logical fallacy, I'm afraid. We're not talking about God's favourite colour or icecream flavour - we're talking about what gets you into heaven. In all religions across the world THIS point is the one that's the most clearly defined. Many religions have a bullet pointed checklist. And Christian sects do not appear to be able to agree on it.

And not just shades of grey either - black and white, as in your own example. Your personal theory confuses me greatly. If God makes everything and God is omniscient and omnipotent then why would God create people he has no intention of choosing? What you're saying there is that he designed people specifically for Hell and damnation.

Think about that for a minute and then tell me why on Earth that would be necessary.

As to your first comment...99 percent of Christians (true Christians) would agree with the view of works I spoke of. Faith produces works period , you can't have faith without then aquiring works as a result.

Now for the second...the question should not be, 'Why doesn't God save everyone?' it should instead be, 'Why does God save anyone?' Not one of us deserves it.

 

[Eon]

Personally speaking, if I take a broken toy out of the box and it's already broken - I blame the manufacturer.

 

[[toj.cc]phantom]

Personally speaking, if I take a broken toy out of the box and it's already broken - I blame the manufacturer.

Even if you are the one who broke it?

 

[Dark Virtue]

As to the question of whether I should expect anyone to change their beliefs do to any argument I can put words to, the answer to that is also NO.

Do you believe in the need to witness to others? Or is the example you set by simply living your life good enough? This thread was directed at those Christians that believe it is their God given right to go out and try and convert others.

God leads Christians to repent.

Interesting wording. Does God also lead nonChristians to repent?

I believe that God chooses us and we have no choice(this will open a whole new thread I am sure. That being said, from a Calvinist point of view your question is totally irrelevant.

Understood. The Calvinist position believes in Predestination, does it not? Meaning while God chooses some, he purposefully does not choose others, correct?

Now to address the question brought up about different beliefs among Christians. Such as works vs. faith. The 'faith without works is dead' argument...bah. For a very high percentage of Christians this is a none issue. It is brought up most of the time by non Christians who don't understand Christianity anyway.

Are you assuming that it's a high percentage or do you have something to back that assertion up?

Now many will say, 'hah...another differing opinion between Christians. You are a Calvinist and others are not!' No big deal. Whether I believe we have a choice or not is irrelevant to my salvation. The differing views on various topics among Christians are for the most part petty and really do not matter in the long run. On the issues that matter we are united.

I disagree that these issues are petty and don't matter, especially the issue of salvation. YOU say it's petty, but how many wars have been waged and lives lost over these "petty" issues? You're hiding behind a strawman. You say the issue is irrelevant to you, but this thread was created, in part, to discuss the DIFFERENCES between sects. Not every Christian throws up their hands and says forget everyone else, all I'm interested in is MY salvation. Do you believe that Christians with differing views are wrong in their beliefs? This question is constantly being avoided. As an outsider looking in, Christianity is far from a united religion.

I've never met two evolutionists that believed everything the same way either(or two atheists for that matter).

Unfortunately that's not a very strong argument. Atheists aren't united under one god and follow the same text.

 

[Dark Virtue]

It is not humans that have to agrtee..that is the point most in this thread are missing. The bible says it clearly: Accept Jesus as your savior(which means you leave your old lifestyle behind) and Lord of your life and you will get into heaven.

it's very very simple.

If it's that clear and simple, why do some Christians believe differently?

 

[Dark Virtue]

As to your first comment...99 percent of Christians (true Christians) would agree with the view of works I spoke of. Faith produces works period , you can't have faith without then aquiring works as a result.

AHA! I knew it would come out sooner or later!

Would you mind explaining what a "true" Christian is?

How do you know that you are a "true" Christian?

What about those Christians that don't believe exactly as you and claim that YOU aren't a "true" Christian?

Now for the second...the question should not be, 'Why doesn't God save everyone?' it should instead be, 'Why does God save anyone?' Not one of us deserves it.

And whose fault is that? Is the pottery responsible for the potter's mistakes?

 

[Odale]

AHA! I knew it would come out sooner or later!

Would you mind explaining what a "true" Christian is?

A true Christian is one who believes that only through Christ, you will enter heaven; that he, the son of God, is your Savior.

How do you know that you are a "true" Christian?

If you believe that Christ is your Savior, and that believeing in him, is the only way into heaven. (As stated in the Bible.)

What about those Christians that don't believe exactly as you and claim that YOU aren't a "true" Christian?

Then vice versa.

And whose fault is that? Is the pottery responsible for the potter's mistakes?

The potter knows everything about his little pots running around. He knows when they will "break" and what they will do after they "break". Whose fault is that now? (The potter makes no mistakes.)

 

[Dark Virtue]

A true Christian is one who believes that only through Christ, you will enter heaven; that he, the son of God, is your Savior.

Then what ISN'T a "true Christian"?

The potter knows everything about his little pots running around. He knows when they will "break" and what they will do after they "break". Whose fault is that now? (The potter makes no mistakes.)

If you are a great potter, why would you choose to make a pot that is easily susceptible to cracking and breaking? Why not, instead, create a pot that is resilient?

 

[Odale]

Then what ISN'T a "true Christian"?

Someone who does not believe in Jesus Christ.

If you are a great potter, why would you choose to make a pot that is easily susceptible to cracking and breaking? Why not, instead, create a pot that is resilient?

I believe that God put us here so that he could have poeple to talk to, and that he gave those people free will to choose to talk to him or not and to make their own decisions on other matters as well. If he made the ideal pot then... what would be the point?

 

[Dark Virtue]

Someone who does not believe in Jesus Christ.

So how can you be a Christian and not belive in Jesus Christ?

You might as well have said Christian Christian instead of "true" Christian.

I believe that God put us here so that he could have poeple to talk to, and that he gave those people free will to choose to talk to him or not and to make their own decisions on other matters as well. If he made the ideal pot then... what would be the point?

Why would an omnimax being get so lonely that he would have to create someone to talk to? Weren't the angels engaging enough? If God created people for the sole purpose of conversation, why in the heck doesn't he talk to us???

What would be the point? Please explain to me why a potter would INTENTIONALLY create a defective pot?

 

[Didasko]

Do you believe in the need to witness to others? Or is the example you set by simply living your life good enough? This thread was directed at those Christians that believe it is their God given right to go out and try and convert others.

It is not just a God given right DV, it is a God given command.

Interesting wording. Does God also lead nonChristians to repent?

This answer will probably upset some on this website and many will not agree...God leads his chosen to repent. The chosen were predestined from the beginning.

Understood. The Calvinist position believes in Predestination, does it not? Meaning while God chooses some, he purposefully does not choose others, correct?

Yes!

Are you assuming that it's a high percentage or do you have something to back that assertion up?

I have the Bible to back it up (Yes I know DV, the Bible is not a good enough argument for you. You want facts from a study and I don't have them.). Any Christian who has been one long enough to do much Bible study at all will come to the conclusion that works follow faith.

I disagree that these issues are petty and don't matter, especially the issue of salvation. YOU say it's petty, but how many wars have been waged and lives lost over these "petty" issues? You're hiding behind a strawman. You say the issue is irrelevant to you, but this thread was created, in part, to discuss the DIFFERENCES between sects. Not every Christian throws up their hands and says forget everyone else, all I'm interested in is MY salvation. Do you believe that Christians with differing views are wrong in their beliefs? This question is constantly being avoided. As an outsider looking in, Christianity is far from a united religion.

No wars were waged over these issues DV. Some may have claimed these issues as a reason for war, but they were not Christians. Not all who say they are a Christian are one DV. Some say their a Christian because their gamdma was, others because they live in America, and others because they can manipulate people using Christianity as the guise for their power play.

haha...where did you get the idea that all I am interested in is MY salvation DV? I am interested in yours...why do you think I spend time here in discussion with you?

I pray that God will open your eyes and call you.

Your right Christians are not nearly as united as I wish they were. But if they are Christians then they are united with me on the important issues.

Unfortunately that's not a very strong argument. Atheists aren't united under one god and follow the same text.

Athiests are united under one god DV. The god of self.