Creation question

4

4t0p

New Member
I'm sure that this has already been asked of you previously but I can't seem to find your answer ... How do you explain creation ... and I don't mean Evolution I mean where did the universe come from? in the good and evil thread I believe you claim to be an athiest, if you believe in no higher power whatsoever ( be it the Chirstian God or any god) how do you explain the existence? If you say the big bang where did the particles come from that caused the big bang? nothingness can't explode (look at any chem lab vacuum chamber).

Just wondering
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[b said:
Quote[/b] (4t0p @ Nov. 07 2003,10:38)]I'm sure that this has already been asked of you previously but I can't seem to find your answer ... How do you explain creation ... and I don't mean Evolution I mean where did the universe come from? in the good and evil thread I believe you claim to be an athiest, if you believe in no higher power whatsoever ( be it the Chirstian God or any god) how do you explain the existence? If you say the big bang where did the particles come from that caused the big bang? nothingness can't explode (look at any chem lab vacuum chamber).

Just wondering
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If I were Timor I would say that Eternity presupposes no 'beginning' -- that the Big Bang was simply the explosive bounce of the Last Universe collapsing upon itself as Gravity pulled it all back to one central point. Imagine the Heat generated by all Matter collapsing into one point. BANG! And not a clean Bang either. yes a lot of hydrogen is produced, but also the Universe is instantly cluttered in all of the heavy elements. have you noticed that Science cannot explain the existence of the heavy elements in our solar system that only has a helium sun. Nothing in our sector of the galaxy is old enough to suppose our solar system was formed out of an exploded black hole -- the only other explanation for heavy elements being here. No, the Big Bang was not a Creation -- just the crossover point in a continuous cycle. The Hindu Mystics who gave us the Vedas were able to tell us that much -- that the Universe expands and contracts, creates itself and then destroys itself -- over and over again.

Now, you, can either have a Beginning or you can have an Eternity. you can't philosophically have both. If this makes God difficult to understand, then you may begin to understand Saint Bernard's injunction to appreciate the Mystery of God and refrain from trying to explain everything. You do not wish to place your intellect ahead of God. Enjoy the Mystery.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (4t0p @ Nov. 07 2003,10:38)]I'm sure that this has already been asked of you previously but I can't seem to find your answer ... How do you explain creation ... and I don't mean Evolution I mean where did the universe come from? in the good and evil thread I believe you claim to be an athiest, if you believe in no higher power whatsoever ( be it the Chirstian God or any god) how do you explain the existence? If you say the big bang where did the particles come from that caused the big bang? nothingness can't explode (look at any chem lab vacuum chamber).

Just wondering
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Well, I'm not Timor, and I cannot answer for him...but for me...

Actually, Leo basically hit my position on it. The universe has always existed. Why the heck not?
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Basically, back when I was a Deist, I thought in terms of a "Blind Watchmaker." A Great Archetect (Jefferson). The god of Spinoza (Einstein). Then someone asked me...who created the creator? and if it always existed, then why not the universe?

I'm sure that some here will scoff at this, but that is what led me to shed Deism.
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[b said:
Quote[/b] (Big J @ Nov. 08 2003,3:33)]
[b said:
Quote[/b] (4t0p @ Nov. 07 2003,10:38)]I'm sure that this has already been asked of you previously but I can't seem to find your answer ... How do you explain creation ... and I don't mean Evolution I mean where did the universe come from? in the good and evil thread I believe you claim to be an athiest, if you believe in no higher power whatsoever ( be it the Chirstian God or any god) how do you explain the existence? If you say the big bang where did the particles come from that caused the big bang? nothingness can't explode (look at any chem lab vacuum chamber).

Just wondering
biggrin.gif
Click to expand...
Well, I'm not Timor, and I cannot answer for him...but for me...

Actually, Leo basically hit my position on it.  The universe has always existed.  Why the heck not?  
biggrin.gif


Basically, back when I was a Deist, I thought in terms of a "Blind Watchmaker."  A Great Archetect (Jefferson).  The god of Spinoza (Einstein).  Then someone asked me...who created the creator?  and if it always existed, then why not the universe?

I'm sure that some here will scoff at this, but that is what led me to shed Deism.  
smile.gif
Click to expand...
Yeah, I see the same weaknesses in the arguments for Creation.

The convincing arguments are for a Providential Eschatological God -- an Actively Benevolent God who acts with an Ultimate Purpose in mind. This requires me to show both Divine Revelation and the Miraculous -- which may be difficult at times, but a whole lot easier than making sense of the Paradox of a Created Eternity.
 
Leo and Big J have said some good things.

I say, simply, "I do not know."

Perhaps it always existed. I see no reason it couldn't. In fact, that's probably what I believe the most. It is interesting to note that all of our physics laws today would have been "established" just moments after the big bang occurred, and so it would be hard, if not impossible, to say with any certainty what there was before the big bang.

I believe the superstring theory may also have some merit. Like I said, I really don't know, because we cannot know, and so all I can do is guess. However, I'm perfectly fine with not knowing =D

Good to hear from ya again, old buddy
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If I understand this straight, one could argue that the universe always existed into the eternal past. The arguement would state that the universe has been expanding and contracting for an infinite amount of time. That would make the universe as a whole a closed system, would it not? And as such, the 2nd law of thermodynamics would actually have kicked in, some time ago in the infinite past.
 
I'm not sure if Steven Hawking developed the theory.

The universe is really a mind boggling concept. Even if the universe was created by God, if the universe is always expanding, what space is it expanding into? What is outisde of the universe? Nothing? What is nothing? The human mind cannot even comprehend nothing. Nuts.

edit --> Speaking of nothing http://www.infidelguy.com/modules....&t=1594
 
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