Martyrdom

D

Dark Virtue

New Member
Goose62 said:
DV, you're like my wife ... she likes to change subjects and twist words around so that it favors her side of the story, but I always catch her :)
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But you love her anyway, don't you? :)

Anyways ... name 12 people, actually, name 1 person that proclaimed to have first hand experiences with their "messiah" (someone you claim doesn't exist) and have their limbs torn apart by horses, crucified on a cross upside-down, be-headed, stoned, etc. - all because they believed what this person said and who this person was (there might be other people like this, but I haven't spent time to research it, I was just honestly asking if you can name anybody and prove a point in the below paragraph).

If it were me, and I was making up this "religion" based on someone that is make believe ... when they started tying my arms and legs to horses ... I'd probably say something like, "ok guys, I was joking, Christ didn't exist, this person isn't divine, he didn't produce miracles etc. - you can untie me now"
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I'm not exactly sure what you're asking for. Martyrs that died for their cause? You seem to be asking me to do something you can't do either, anyone I point to would only be evidential in an anecdotal way.

Since I think I understand what you're saying let me remind you of two religious groups that you might remember.

The Branch Davidians and Heaven's Gate.

They died for what they believed in, no? Did that make them right?

What about Jonestown?

Were they right?

Look at 9/11. Those people died for their cause, did that make them right?

If you would like a list of Jewish martyrs, read 1 Maccabees and 2 Maccabees.

A good example of an Islamic martyr, or shaheed would be Sumayyah bint Khabbab who was murdered in Mecca. Another good example would be Husayn bin Ali, whom the Shia commemorate during the Aashurah.

What about Ghandi? Seems like a great example to me.

People have continually brought up the issue of martyrs on this board, but no one has bothered to explain how a Christian dying for his cause is any different from a nonChristian dying for theirs.
 
People have continually brought up the issue of martyrs on this board, but no one has bothered to explain how a Christian dying for his cause is any different from a nonChristian dying for theirs.
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We go to heaven, they do not
 
Genesis1315 said:
We go to heaven, they do not
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I was referring to the attitude of the sacrifice.

Saying the reason they died because they knew they would go to heaven only serves to cheapen their sacrifice. When you say that, you imply that it wasn't much of a sacrifice at all, since they knew they would achieve an eternal reward.
 
I believe the word used was INTENTIONAL Goose. And from now on let's try and make sure there's content pertaining to the debate in our replies, shall we?

I must agree somewhat with DV's statement about loss and reward. Take, for example Jesus. Nobody is going to argue that death by crucifixion is not a bad way to go, but at the end of the day, JC believed himself to be Gods son. What were the odds that Daddy wasn't coming for him once the little plan had played itself out?

Same goes for most martyrs, of course. All the Islamic martyrs believed that their sacrifice would take them straight to Allah's arms in paradise.
 
I was referring to the attitude of the sacrifice.

Saying the reason they died because they knew they would go to heaven only serves to cheapen their sacrifice. When you say that, you imply that it wasn't much of a sacrifice at all, since they knew they would achieve an eternal reward.
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As Eon posted...

IMO - Dying to get into heaven / paradise etc seems silly to me, esp when salvation and guaranteed acceptance into heaven only requires belief in one thing.

Gen
 
I believe the word used was INTENTIONAL Goose. And from now on let's try and make sure there's content pertaining to the debate in our replies, shall we?
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Did I miss something?? ... :| And how about next time you reply to me, minus the attitude and sarcasm, "shall we?"

I must agree somewhat with DV's statement about loss and reward. Take, for example Jesus. Nobody is going to argue that death by crucifixion is not a bad way to go, but at the end of the day, JC believed himself to be Gods son. What were the odds that Daddy wasn't coming for him once the little plan had played itself out?
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But Jesus didn't exist, right? Anyways, Jesus defeated death, hell, and the grave all by himself ... He IS God

Christian martyrdom is just like any other faith. I would die before I renounce my faith in God - just the same for other religions.
 
Genesis1315 said:
As Eon posted...

IMO - Dying to get into heaven / paradise etc seems silly to me, esp when salvation and guaranteed acceptance into heaven only requires belief in one thing.

Gen
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Sounds like something I'd say :)
 
Goose62 said:
But Jesus didn't exist, right? Anyways, Jesus defeated death, hell, and the grave all by himself ... He IS God
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In order to facilitate discussions with Christians, it's necessary to assume a few things, such as the existence of God, Jesus, etc. Otherwise we'd have to preface every statement with, "IF so and so existed".

This has been a long standing issue with me. Exactly how was Christ's death a sacrifice?

Sacrifice is defined as something given up or lost. Is giving up an earthly existence in trade for everlasting divinity? Nothing is lost in that trade, especially considering that Christ KNEW he would be resurrected.

Christian martyrdom is just like any other faith. I would die before I renounce my faith in God - just the same for other religions.
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THANK YOU!

That's my point, Christian martyrs are no better, or more special than martyrs of any other religion.
 
Eon said:
JC believed himself to be Gods son. What were the odds that Daddy wasn't coming for him once the little plan had played itself out?
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Ok. One thing you must understand. God is perfect, sin is not perfect. Therefore, sin can not come before God and God, being perfect and without sin, can not allow sin near Him or to dwell with Him. When Jesus Died on the cross, He took the sins of thw world upon Himself. If Jesus was not worried about what would happen to Him after He died, why was it that He spoke the word "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" that is, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?"(Matthew 27:46)

God turned His back upon Jesus because of the sin. It was not until Jesus became the sacrifice for us (the human species) that we were able to commune with God.

Dying for your cause does not always make your cause right. The big thing about Christian martyrs, (I will refer to them because I know a bit more about them than other types of martyrs..) Was that they did nothing to deserve martyrdom other than believing in Jesus. They did not try and become another religion, in fact many were killed for not conforming and joining a new religion. Just because you know that you are going to heaven after you die, does not mean that you rush to meet death. You live your life striving to become what God has asked of you. When death comes, you do not fear it. You know you are simply leaving this world and moving to God's kingdom.
As far as I know, All martyrs were killed in rather gruesome ways. Stoning would not be an easy way to go. Martyrs are looked at with great reverance because they stood up and declared what they belived in the face of certain death. Or even as they were killed.

It would seem dying for your cause gets a lot of attention....
 
Actually a lot of the martyrs were martyred for coming into other countries and dissing their gods. The locals took exception to this (as do we all to this day) and promptly did in the martyrs.

You have to wonder how many of them DID recant and are simply no longer remembered.

And regarding JC again. It's disingenuous to say that God cannot be near sin. God can do ANYTHING, remember? He can forgive any sin. And JC was God - how could he have taken mankinds sins on himself without forgiving them in the process? If God cannot be near sin then JC couldn't have taken mans sins because he WAS God, according to the bible.

Therefore the sins must have been forgiven in the instant he accepted them. It's the only way it stays internally consistent. As to why he cried that out on the cross - he was dying. You might assume he got scared and was in some pain. I suppose he had difficulty percieving the beauty of the plan at that point. ;)

And Goose - splinter, beam, eye. I suppose I don't need the full quote do I? I use sarcasm as a sort of safety valve on my posts. Removing the sarcasm from me would require a very sharp knife.
 
"Greater love have no more than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." Christianity is based around the greatest martyr of all. I am glad to live in a country that doesn't persecute my beliefs.
 
I think the idea behind Christians feeling that they're being persecuted in the United States is simply the attitudes we receive from others, which in my opinion is actually justifiable considering the history Christianity has had.

While upholding laws of religious freedom, it seems to many people that Christians are the most excluded; there's even the acronym "ABC", or "Anything But Christian." Even in World of Warcraft, it's a reportable offense to say anything derogatory about Allah, Jehova, or Buddha and the like, but phrases like "Jesus Christ, lern 2 play n00b" or "Christian guild, eh? better boot the warlocks and their lust-inducing succubi!" are not discouraged in any way.

Persecution is apparently not limited to torture or imprisonment, which were the methods of persecution back in the old times.
 
er, edit: when i said "justifiable" I was referring to the negative attitudes, not the feelings of persecution.
 
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