The "former" Christian is...

The "former" Christian is...

  • a Christian who has renounced his faith

    Votes: 26 59.1%
  • someone who was never saved to begin with

    Votes: 15 34.1%
  • Doesn't matter. Six of one, half a dozen of the other

    Votes: 1 2.3%
  • Why do you make these polls so hard?!?

    Votes: 2 4.5%

  • Total voters
    44

Stc95

Tribe of Judah Guild Wars Chapter Leader
dang i really wanted to be at the last one, but i had to see about going on a trip that i'll ask all of you to pray for in a while.
I am possitive that i'll make it tommorow tho :D
 

mist_01

New Member
Personaly im a northwestern Iowa calvenist, so i strongly believe that there is nothing that can take a Christian away from Christ. I like to quote Romans 8 where it says
"For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."
I believe this means that nothing will ever be able to come between me and my salvation. Therefor i believe that a "former Christian" is either someone who was never saved or someone who God will call back to him before their death.
 

one2dredd

Tribe of Judah Aion Chapter Leader
I have a problem believing the once saved always saved option. I respect your belief in this I am not bashing you in any way. But instead of trying to disprove you I am just going to say this. All that matters in the end is that when you die or when Christ comes for his church is that you love Jesus and you are serving him. If you are doing that than it doesn't matter if it is once saved always saved or you can lose your salvation.
 
All that matters in the end is that when you die or when Christ comes for his church is that you love Jesus and you are serving him. If you are doing that than it doesn't matter if it is once saved always saved or you can lose your salvation.
And that's essentially the conclusion that we came to in October when we had this study. :)

The main focus of the study was on how there is Biblical support for both Arminian and Calvinist beliefs, and how the two when properly integrated produce a more clear picture of the character of God. To say one is Calvinist without any consideration of Arminianism is to devalue ourselves, but to say one is Arminian without any consideration of Calvinism devalues God. I believe that both God and man are of utmost value, but that man's value is derived from God. Soooo... I tend to lean toward Calvinism, but I don't commit to any one camp because I think the truth lies somewhere between the extremes.
 

mist_01

New Member
(Again just for discution, not starting argument) Personaly i believe that on my own i could never come to God. I can't see how i on my own could ever choose God without him calling to me. I strongly believe that God has chosen those he will save before the world was created.
"But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.(From Ephesians 2)"
If God chose to save me before i Chose him i don't see him rejecting him just because i choose not to follow him. God saved me despite my sins. I believe he continues to save me despite my sins. Furthermore, if God wants to save me, there is certainly nothing i could do to stop him :) , He's God.
God's love has never been based on my actions (or else i wouldn't be a Christian) and i don't believe it ever will be. God loves me Unconditionally (thankfully).
Anyway those are my thoughts, but i agree, in the end (and now) it will make little difference.
 

mist_01

New Member
Another passage from Ephesians 1 That i use above
"For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight"
and at vs 11
"In him we were also chosen,[e] having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory.
 

mist_01

New Member
oh, by the way, feel free to argue with me, I love discussion. Besides, if i don't know by beliefs inside and out how can i defend them? (Holy Spirit would do it for me but anyway). So by all means please discus this and anything else i post, i love "arguing".
 
oh, by the way, feel free to argue with me, I love discussion. Besides, if i don't know by beliefs inside and out how can i defend them? (Holy Spirit would do it for me but anyway). So by all means please discus this and anything else i post, i love "arguing".
What about those who aren't saved. It's easy to say that God chose all of us Christians to be saved, but at the same time, you're saying He condemned everyone else. That's why I've never been comfortable with predestination, John Calvin or Augustine. We, as humans, certainly could never have a chance to get to heaven if it weren't for Jesus. (To say otherwise would make his death and rez meaningless.) But I believe that we are still held responsible to turn toward God and accept that grace which he has freely offered us. Those who do are Christians, and those who don't will find out too late they've made a bad decision.

-Chadley
 

mist_01

New Member
I believe that if anyone choose God he would accept them, however, apart from him choosing them i don't believe anyone would. By Sinning in the first place We choose to go away from God. I believe we all had a Choice, but we made it when we sinned. Now it is only by his grace that he has chosen some of us to save from the punishment we Choose for ourselves.
 
But you still never answered my first question...

I do agree with you that in sinning we've turned away from God, but to me, one of the most moving things about my personal faith is turning back to God. I'm sure everyone has done it--fallen away from His way for awhile, but then realized how crappy your life is and turned to rush back toward God only to find He's been right behind you the whole time...

Now, that's speaking for those already proven to be the "elect," but I think if it can be proven (and by my own spiritual walk, I think it can) that Christians can turn away from God in sin, but turn back to him for grace and forgiveness, the same must be true for non-believers.

I'd kinda like to know exactly where you stand on the whole thing, mist... I mean, it sounds lame, but there are different levels of predestination. For example, Augustine reasoned that if God is omniscient, he must know who will be saved and who will not, and if he is omnipotent, he must be okay with that. Calvin took it a step further saying that God literally and deliberately chose those people who would make it to heaven. Me, I've always drawn the line at God being able to soften people's hearts (as is seen in the Bible).

But yeah, if you wouldn't mind kinda laying out where you are on the spectrum just so I can better understand how to respond. I never thought the Predestination debate was a friendship-breaker (though, I suppose it is a church-breaker...). Heck, my DAD is a Calvinist! :p Anyway, good talk. Later!

-Chadley
 

mist_01

New Member
I very much believe that God deliberately Chose me. After looking at my life i can see that apart from him i could never have chosen him on my own. I also believe that after God choses someone there is no power on earth, including themselves, that can separate them from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus. I definitely believe we can stray from God but like you said when we come back we will see that he has been behind us the whole time. Btw, thanks for your thoughts, like i said, i love discussing what i believe. When i look at "Choice or Predestination passages" from the bible, i don't see a conflict. Because i am chosen by God, i will chose him and nothing can take me, his child, from him.
 

mist_01

New Member
What it really comes down to for me is this, I can't believe my salvation depends on me in anyway, because then i am without hope of salvation.
 

mist_01

New Member
Another way to look at it, if we stray from God but then realise our lives suck and come back to him, do you think that is your own work or the work of God? If it is your own work that means to me we can "help in our salvation", if it is God calling us back after we choose to leave, do we really have a choise to leave?
 

Cloud G

New Member
Your salvation HAS to depend on you. We all have free will. We all choose to believe and trust in God or not. Whether or not God calls you......YOU have to make a choice.....so your salvation does depend on you. It's God's grace that saves us. It's our choice whether we accept that Grace.
 

mist_01

New Member
Thats the other way to look at it :) its not my perspective, but it doesn't really matter in the end, but don't let me stifle discussion :)
 
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