To Joblow

[Avesther]

Quote[/b] ]but if it was a christian country, u'd still be burning witches on a stake.

No. FYI, if you actually studied it, you'd find out it was Christians standing up against this practice that put an end to it.

Quote[/b] ]And we'd still be questioning every scientific breakthrough with how it contradicts the bible.

Almost all founding fathers of modern science were Christian. Its more likely that we'd still be trying to change lead into into Gold. I'm trying very hard to come up with a scientific breakthrough that contradicts the bible. There is not a known fact of science that contradicts the bible. Many theories of science contradict the Bible, but no known fact of science does.

 

[Mr.Bill]

America is a secular nation, the fact that its founders were christian (not all of them actually...Ben Franklin, I happen to know, was an athiest) has very little to do with the fact that this is the most free country in the world.  It is the way it is because that's the way they crafted our government to be, of the people, by the people, and for the people.  Also, while no known fact of science contradicts the Bible, one can also argue that no known fact of Christianity contradicts science.  It's a moot point.

 

[Thaddius]

Meh..Franklin was considered a deist..not an atheist. He believed in A God, just was unsure about his belief in Christ as the Messiah. Some of our other founding fathers were Christian as well.

Might want to put more effort into your research.

Quote[/b] ]#

For example, I could use the following quotes from Ben Franklin to justify "my arguments" for his belief in almighty God vs "someone else's" claim that he is an atheist:

I BELIEVE there is one supreme, most perfect Being . . . Also, when I stretch my imagination through and beyond our system of planets, beyond the visible fixed stars themselves, into that space that is every way infinite, and conceive it filled with suns like ours, each with a chorus of worlds for ever moving round him; then this little ball on which we move, seems, even in my narrow imagination, to be almost nothing, and myself less than nothing, and of no sort of consequence . . . That I may be preserved from atheism . . . Help me, O Father! . . . For all thy innumerable benefits; for life, and reason . . . My good God, I thank thee!

"Articles of Belief "1728

Or how about this:

I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth--that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid? . . . I also believe that without his concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better than the Builders of Babel . . .

In Federal [Framing] Convention, 1787, making a motion for Prayer

My advice would be to keep an open mind and search out sources that can take you as close to the original as you can get.....read the actual writtings of the Founding Fathers if possible, rather than someones interpretation of what the fathers may have ment....happy hunting!

# Answer by marty contributed on July 04, 2004, at 12:01pm. Last updated on July 04, 2004, at 11:08pm.

Brian writes: Thomas Paine even wrote a lengthy book called "The age of reason" to disprove the bible and christianity

and virtually all of the other names you mention wrote rather scathingly of Paine's book:

Ben Franklin wrote: I would advise you, therefore, not to attempt unchaining the tiger, but to burn this piece before it is seen by any other person . . . . If men are so wicked with religion, what would they be without it? I intend this letter itself as proof of my friendship

John Adams wrote: The Christian religion is, above all the religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of wisdom, virtue equity and humanity, let the Blackguard [scoundrel, rogue] Paine say what he will

Benjamin Rush, signer of the Declaration of Independence, wrote to his friend and signer of the Constitution John Dickenson that Paine's Age of Reason was "absurd and impious."[7]

Charles Carroll, a signer of the Declaration, described Paine's work as "blasphemous writings against the Christian religion."[8]

John Witherspoon, signer of the Declaration and mentor to many other Founders, said that Paine was "ignorant of human nature as well as an enemy to the Christian faith."[9]

John Quincy Adams declared that "Mr. Paine has departed altogether from the principles of the Revolution."

Lumping these men with Thomas Paine is simply historically incorrect.

"Our laws and our institutions must necessarily be based upon the teachings of the Redeemer of Mankind. It is impossible that it should be otherwise; and in this sense and to this extent, our civilization and our institutions are emphatically Christian."

U. S. Supreme Court 1892

atheists tend to use part of one of Franklins quote to try and say he was an atheist, which not only is not true, but the fact they dont use the whole quote shows their inablility to be objective.

Cory

 

[Guest]

John Adams from John Adams, a Biography in His Own Words

Quote[/b] ]"Twenty times in the course of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, 'this would be the best of all possible Worlds, if there were no religion in it'

Thomas Pain

Quote[/b] ]"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of... Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all."

And Ben was a deist well atleast thats what historians say, I don't know alot about him.

I don't like the fact that most christians are against stem cell research and cloning. That research could lead to a break through in genetics and I wouldn't have to go for tests every few months.

 

[Thaddius]

The point is, that most of them were deists. I can be questioned whether or not they followed the doctrine handed down at the time by the catholic church, church of England or Luthers reformations. We could go back and forth on quotes till we are all blue in the face and it won't prove nothing except they were not atheists and they may not have been Christian.

Cory

 

[Avesther]

John Adams also wrote in a letter to Jefferson on June 28, 1813.

Quote[/b] ]The general principles on which the Fathers achieved independence, were . . . the general principles of Christianity.

Its as if it really doesn't matter if they any of the founding fathers of the USA were Christian. Because even if they were not:

(1) They all acknowledged that God is supreme and soveriegn,
(2) And that the US nation was founded on Christian principles.

 

[Guest]

I agree with thad this will never end.

 

[Master~Plan]

Quote[/b] ]Also, while no known fact of science contradicts the Bible, one can also argue that no known fact of Christianity contradicts science. It's a moot point.

well, kind of... Science changes. It contradicts one thing one day, and something else the next day. Christian Scripture is constant. So I think the point is that science has contradicted the Bible before, but then changed and doesn't, while the Bible is constant.

 

[Guest]

Like when science said the earth is round and the church said no its flat. And when science said the earth revolves around the sun and the church said no the earth is the centre of the universe. The bble is constant, just the people who read it change.

quick question do u think orthodox christians are closer to Jesus. Because I think orthodox is closer to the Jewish faith.

 

[Mr.Bill]

Yeah you may be right, Ben Franklin probably was a deist.  I just remembered reading somewhere that he had "doubts about God" and I guess I misinterpereted it.  But you all are trying to forumalate a point where there just isn't one.  Yes there may have been a lot of Christian belief going into the formation of this country and yes, this country is now the most powerful and most free in the world, but Christianity does not have much to do with this, at least not for the reasons that you are thinking of.

MP- No, my point was that there are no facts of religion, so it is basically impossible to contradict science. And vice versa. Like I said, moot point.

 

[Mr.Bill]

Thaddius, I am getting tired of your condescension...please cut it out.

 

[Kidan]

Quote[/b] ]I don't like the fact that most christians are against stem cell research and cloning. That research could lead to a break through in genetics and I wouldn't have to go for tests every few months.

Well, the truth of the matter is, stem cell research is not going to be that great of a thing. If it was, then private businesses would spend R&D dollars on it. The fact that very few private businesses are interested in stem cells is as fine an indicator that there's not that good of a future in it as anything.


jo - the Catholic church said the world was flat. Jewish scriptures indicate a round world.

 

[Thaddius]

condescension? Where was I acting like that?

All I said was you need to put more effort in your research. If I came across as patronizing, then I'm sorry, that was not my intention.

Cory

 

[Mr.Bill]

Eh, just your tone in general..been bothering me for a while.  Oh well, I guess there's nothing for it.  I did not put more effort into my research, because, well, I dont think it really matters.  Whether you are right or not, this country is the way it is majorly for seperate reasons.

 

[Thaddius]

But it does matter Bill.

I don't want to come across as a jerk over these forums. If the way I present myself is that way, then I need to change how I type out my posts.

As for your post not mattering it matters a lot. Whether you are just bringing points to counter or seeking information, it does matter to us because we care about people.

Quote[/b] ]Christianity, if false, is of no importance, and if true, of infinite importance. The only thing it cannot be is moderately important.

C.S. Lewis wrote that. To me, Christianity is of infinite importance. Everyone must be given the chance to be saved. While I'm not saying you will "convert" here, I do hope that information that is shared here will send you looking for truth instead of believing what is easy to believe. You seem to have a very inquisitive mind and I am the same way. I like to know the "whys" and "hows" of this earth, and some of them I have to learn just come by faith. I don't just say I am a Christian. I put effort into knowing what I believe and why I believe it. I don't have all the answers but I have enough to know what I believe is right.

Anyyway, like I was saying, I don't want to come across as rude, or a jerk or looking down at anyone. We are here to discuss stuff in a civil manner and I'll have to read over my posts before hitting submit.

Cory

 

[Mr.Bill]

Quote[/b] (Thaddius @ July 21 2004,9:06)]But it does matter Bill.  

I don't want to come across as a jerk over these forums.  If the way I present myself is that way, then I need to change how I type out my posts.

As for your post not mattering it matters a lot.  Whether you are just bringing points to counter or seeking information, it does matter to us because we care about people.

Quote[/b] ]Christianity, if false, is of no importance, and if true, of infinite importance. The only thing it cannot be is moderately important.

C.S. Lewis wrote that.  To me, Christianity is of infinite importance.  Everyone must be given the chance to be saved.  While I'm not saying you will "convert" here,  I do hope that information that is shared here will send you looking for truth instead of believing what is easy to believe.  You seem to have a very inquisitive mind and I am the same way.  I like to know the "whys" and "hows" of this earth, and some of them I have to learn just come by faith.  I don't just say I am a Christian.  I put effort into knowing what I believe and why I believe it.  I don't have all the answers but I have enough to know what I believe is right.

Anyyway, like I was saying, I don't want to come across as rude, or a jerk or looking down at anyone.  We are here to discuss stuff in a civil manner and I'll have to read over my posts before hitting submit.

Cory

Oh dear, do not misunderstand me.  I agree, Christianity is important, as are all religions and belief systems in the world, all I'm saying is that it doesn't have such significant bearing on the nature of our nation.  You are acrediting a good thing to the wrong source, but that does not mean it is 'bad.'  When I said that it 'didn't matter' I was not talking about Christianity in general, but rather just the fact that this country may have had christian principles in it's foundation. I did not do any 'research,' I used logic in its stead. I'm sorry..I guess that came out wrong before.

hescomminsoon: I am not referring to this thread alone. But it is very subtle and difficult for me to elaborate on, so I am choosing to drop the subject.

 

[Avesther]

Quote[/b] (JoBlow @ July 21 2004,1:23)]Like when science said the earth is round and the church said no its flat. And when science said the earth revolves around the sun and the church said no the earth is the centre of the universe. The bble is constant, just the people who read it change.

Science believed its flat, the bible called the earth a sphere.

Science believed that the earth was the center of the universe, the bible says that the earth revolves around the sun.

 

[Mr.Bill]

Quote[/b] (Gods_Peon @ July 21 2004,9:34)]

Quote[/b] (JoBlow @ July 21 2004,1:23)]Like when science said the earth is round and the church said no its flat. And when science said the earth revolves around the sun and the church said no the earth is the centre of the universe. The bble is constant, just the people who read it change.

Science believed its flat, the bible called the earth a sphere.

Science believed that the earth was the center of the universe, the bible says that the earth revolves around the sun.

Really GP? Where does it say? Now I'm curious.

 

[Master~Plan]

^ well, I'm sure Thad wasn't trying to be condescending, I guess its just he didn't say much in that post. So the line about Bill putting more research into his work might be interpreted as something rude bieng 20% of what little Cory did write....

Quote[/b] ]MP- No, my point was that there are no facts of religion, so it is basically impossible to contradict science.  And vice versa.  Like I said, moot point.

No, off the top of my head theres the verse in Job that talks about how the world hangs on nothing. The Bible also mentions dinosaurs before paleontology existed. Here is a neat site that lists all of the things the Bible says. For me the site came off a little petty at first, but if you think about the points they make, it makes a lot of sense.

 

[Kidan]

Quote[/b] (Mr.Bill @ July 21 2004,9:36)]

Quote[/b] (Gods_Peon @ July 21 2004,9:34)]

Quote[/b] (JoBlow @ July 21 2004,1:23)]Like when science said the earth is round and the church said no its flat. And when science said the earth revolves around the sun and the church said no the earth is the centre of the universe. The bble is constant, just the people who read it change.

Science believed its flat, the bible called the earth a sphere.

Science believed that the earth was the center of the universe, the bible says that the earth revolves around the sun.

Really GP?  Where does it say?  Now I'm curious.

Quote[/b] ]Circle the Planet
Is. 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in...
Job 26:10 He hath compassed the waters with bounds, until the day and night come to an end.
Prov. 8:27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth...
Skeptics will assume from these verses a concept of a flat, circular, pancake-like earth. In each case, the Hebrew word here is exactly the same, as Strong's tells us:

2329. chuwg, khoog; from H2328; a circle:--circle, circuit, compass.
And here is where we alert the reader to another key word-concept that is missing in Hebrew: There was no varying word for a "sphere" - a three-dimensional circle. It is not that the Hebrews or anyone else lacked the concept of sphericity (for obviously, they could conceive of it plainly when, for example, they ate pomegranates for breakfast!), but that they simply did not create a second word for it.

Some may cite in reply here the KJV version of Is. 22:18, "He will surely violently turn and toss thee like a ball into a large country: there shalt thou die, and there the chariots of thy glory shall be the shame of thy lord's house." The Hebrew word here, however, is:

1754. duwr, dure; from H1752; a circle, ball or pile:--ball, turn, round about.
This word no more inidicates sphericity than our other word, for it is used by Isaiah elsewhere thusly:

Is. 29:3 And I will camp against thee round about, and will lay siege against thee with a mount, and I will raise forts against thee.
Obviously, the soldiers could not camp in the shape of a sphere around the city! Based on this and other usages, this word appears to be making a statement about a circular pattern rather than giving reference to a given shape.

taken from here. The site has a lot more information concerning this topic, I just grabbed a single section of it for posting here.