Written History (young Earth/Old Earth)

PapaToad

PapaToad

Active Member
I have a challenge with the old earth theory. And as always this is imho. According to the this site. ( And I have heard this schpeel in some form or another over the years) Humans started painting on walls 25-30 thousand years ago. But a decent writing system did not evolve til about 9 thousand years ago. The average guesstimate is 6000 years ago, funny how that number keeps cropping up.

Being a student of human nature and knowing man for the crazy little monkey he is, I personally find it hard to believe that for nearly 30 thousand years, man did not develop a more stunning form of writing. I mean look what we did between 1000AD and 2005 AD, or 0001 to 1000AD. But yet I would be lead to believe for 20 thousand years or more Man was content to just be hunter gathers, and non record keeping apes.

NO imho, I think I know enough of human desire to know, that man is always tinkering, looking for better ways to do something. Wanting to have more than his neigbour. Socially, We have the same issues, the Romans had 2000 years ago, and they had since time began.(violence, sex, civil unrest, wars.) Life isn't worse now, Europe, Africa, and the Middle East are just as brutal now than they were 2000 years ago. We still meddle in the affairs of others. The love of (Money) wealth is still the root of all evil. We just have mass media now. Same issues, same problems.

I am wondering what your opinion on this, beside the old earth , new earth thing, do you really feel man was content for 30+ thousand years not improving, do you really think that this last 1000 years was the “Big” jump for us.

Imho I think man is younger than anyone really guesses.

But Then again that my opinion

Some links from Icthus about written history. Thank you, Itchus!

http://www.historian.net/hxwrite.htm

http://www.wam.umd.edu/~rfradkin/alphapage.html

http://www.newarchaeology.com/articles/writing.htm
 
Well, the thing that really kickstarts progress is the interchange of ideas. Before we had a decent written language system the interchange of ideas could ONLY take place in person.

Now, I know your thinking on this. The bible talks about history from about 6,000 years ago, and all writing seems to originate from about that time. To you this suggests that humans "appeared" around about the same time as our writings started, and I can see why you might think that - even if writing didn't actually develop with the Jews that were worshipping Yahweh, but with the Egyptians, the Sumerians and the Harrapa.

But if you think on it, those very same writings are discussing something that was already ancient. So if you're pinning your hopes on a 6,000 year old earth, they're already shot away by the very evidence that you think supports that. And we haven't even started in on the physical evidence supporting older human populations yet - or on the possibilities that there may be older writings we have yet to discover, or which were comitted to a storage medium so fragile that no trace of it exists.

Think about the frenetically increasing pace of knowledge and discovery. Look at how long we were content with merely refining the concept of beating a piece of metal flat in order to kill. Now look at the refinement of the standard infantry sidearm from 1900 to 2000. Look at the development of the automobile compared to the history of horse breeding. Flight or Computers!
 
All intersting points Eon, and I do appreciate them. While I am a bible believe Christain, and I am in favor of a young earth. I am open to constructive objections. I am not pining my hopes on a young earth by the appearance of written history. but the progress of the last lets say the last 4000 years. With the progress jumps man has made, do you really believe he went say 25 thousand years, with almost no change or great leaps. Then in less than 4000 years he made all this progression.

To me and my limited thinking That does not add up. So while I can see your point of veiw, and its is a vaild one, I have troubles accpeting it. And while many of us hold opposing views. I thinks its safe to say almost none will get it right. But I do love to hear/reads anyones thought on the matter
 
It's an interesting observation Montrez.

However, you might remember that back before there were written records, these leaps and bounds might've been impossible. Before formalised agriculture and education, people would have been at the mercy of the seasons and fertility of the land. Knowledge and experience would have to passed oin through mouth and if something happened to the holders of that knowledge, *poof* that knowledge is gone.

Leaps and bounds can me made, I suppose, once these things are in order. It is especially conceiveable that humanity exploded into action once agriculture was sorted out. Knowledge and progress would have picked up by miles once written records started to be used.

I understand your reasoning; why does man only start to make progress in the last few thousand years? It is an interesting point. However, prior to this, man would most likely have been sorting themselves out with survival.
 
The thing about progress is that it's often quiet and subtle.

Think about building something like an aircraft. You cannot imagine the sheer number of advances that have gone into even one of the seats, let alone something like an engine.

It really is an iceberg. The obvious advance of "Look flying thing!" requires so many hidden little steps that have been changing the course of our lives. All the tiers of production that lead to that aircraft, all of them a veritable mountain of progress.
 
I think you are approaching this question from the wrong direction Montrez. You need to think of human progression as being exponential as opposed to linear. A written language being nonexistant for thousands of years does not mean that man was not there to create it. Humans were largely nomadic hunter gatherers until about 12000 BCE I believe, during which time the existing societies were innappropriate for the developement of a written language. Once agriculture came into the picture, everything changed. Humans developed permanent residences and more complex social systems and paid closer attention to the raising of children and their education. Now, verbal languages could certainly have existed up until this point, and that was a perfectly adequate form of communication given the circumstances. There was no need for anything that implied permanence during the nomadic era, but agriculture completely changed that. Thus, humans began to develope their minds at a far quicker pace at this point in our history, which coincides quite nicely with the scientifically accepted age of man.
 
Hello folks, I have a few points Id like to touch on concerning this discussion if I may. First I will say that I believe all that is within the Bible. I also have seen much evidence in support of a young earth, and hopefully i will be able to covey that thru some of these posts.
I see the language issue seems to be the main topic here so lemme throw in my 2 cents worth.

Genesis 11
1 And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.

So what God is telling us here is that from creation man all spoke the same language. That would sure make things easier to get ideas across.
Oops, lemme back up a step. When dealing with the language issue and that of keeping written records we can only really look at things after the flood occured. The reason for that is that everything that existed beforehand was destroyed.

Gen 7:4
For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.

Try and imagine what the scouring effect of water unhindered would do. What I mean by this is if there is NO dry land to impede the flow of water, and the earth is still spinning underneath the water is pretty much gonna grind up waterever is underneath it. You also have to take into effect the bulge from the moon's gravity causing tides, plus all the debris of trees, dinosaur bodies, buildings, massive boulders, you get the idea. It was utter and total destruction, except for Noah and his family who was found to be perfect in his generations, i.e. genes. But thats for another post.
So once the world is dried up a bit and Noah is allowed out to repopulate things, they are still speaking the same language as before the flood. They taught their children this language and their childrens, children this language. But as we humans have a tendency to do, we rebelled against God and decided to build a tower to reach into heaven.

Gen11
3 And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them thoroughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for morter. 4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.

Of course God was not gonna let this happen, would you let your kids move into your room? Probably not. =P

Gen11
5 And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded. 6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.

The other interesting thing to note in that scripture is "now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do." I think this is true especially in our modern day world. We can kill with sound, go faster than the speed of sound, visit other planets, wipe cities off the face of the earth with a single bomb.... the list goes on.

Gen11
7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech. 8 So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city. 9 Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.

So there you have it, thats where we get all our languages from. However that has still not stopped us from reaching out to the stars, as God has said we would.

AS for our ever increasing knowledge, God prophecied that to us as well.

Dan 12
4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Perhaps you have been to an airport recently or even driven on an interstate, I certainly see many people running to and fro. Knowledge increases exponentially everyday, and everyday we get closer to His return!
 
Ecclesiastes 1:10-11 | That which has been is what will be, That which is done is what will be done, And there is nothing new under the sun. Is there anything of which it may be said, "See, this is new"? It has already been in ancient times before us. There is no remembrance of former things, Nor will there be any remembrance of things that are to come By those who will come after.

The truth is, we don't know the extent of technology in former times. Anthropology is not sufficient for a full explaination.

Before the flood I believe that technology advanced at a severe pace. The people then lived longer (Methusaleh was 969 years old Gen.5:25-26) and thus had longer to develope individual research. The Bible speaks of civilization springing up quickly:

Genesis 4:17-22 |Then Cain went out from the presence of the LORD and dwelt in the land of Nod on the east of Eden. And Cain knew his wife, and she conceived and bore Enoch. And he built a city, and called the name of the city after the name of his son––Enoch.To Enoch was born Irad; and Irad begot Mehujael, and Mehujael begot Methushael, and Methushael begot Lamech. Then Lamech took for himself two wives: the name of one was Adah, and the name of the second was Zillah. And Adah bore Jabal. He was the father of those who dwell in tents and have livestock. His brother’s name was Jubal. He was the father of all those who play the harp and flute. And as for Zillah, she also bore Tubal–Cain, an instructor of every craftsman in bronze and iron. And the sister of Tubal–Cain was Naamah.

After 1 generation people could build cities, as Cain did. After 8 generations people were beginning to create shepherding techniques and music and metulgury. This quick advancement has always been the characteristic of humans, though I believe the advancement was in a different direction before the flood. The pre-flood-people had a very different life than we do because they were still living in a semi-edenic world. Everything was healthier and fresher and people were probably biger and stronger. Advanced transportation methods were probably not developed because there was no need. Who wanted to ship goods accross the land when eveything is plentily available everywhere? War machines would also not be developed in the same sense because the dynamics of war would be much different. You fight your next of kin different from a German Chancellor.

Where is the anthropological evidence for this? It seems like an easy excuse to say the flood washed it all away... but it did. Thankfully 8 people were saved and they wrote it down in a book we call Genesis, but no one likes to hear that. So is there no evidence? I think some might be found in the Mud covered City States found in the Indus valley. I believe they are know as the Dead Cities, or something like Hamarta Hambura. In these cities has been found an unknown written language as well as elaborate sewage and water systems. An they are all burried under mud... in the middle of a valley? Sounds like a pretty big flood to me. :cool:

The slow advancement after the flood was due to the confusion of the language. Also there was much immorality, and scientific advancement is very much hindered by orgies and demon worship. Take the dark ages for instance, spiritual darkness = scientific darkness. Most of the great scientific advancements have been motivated by Christ and His Truth, and to depart from that causes one to stray intellectually aswell.
 
You are standing on the shoulders of giants, Jericho, and NONE of them were Christian. NONE of the early ones who made the great leaps from an ignorance that some in your faith seek to extend even as the Mohammedan's seek to return us still further.

The Egyptians. The Meso-American people. The Druids. The Romans. The Greeks. The Phoenicians. The Vikings. The Celts. The Gauls. The Persians. The Babylonians.

The inventors of Law, Reason, Maths, Logic, Agriculture, Iron, Steel, Language, Medicine, The Arts, Navigation, Astronomy, Map Making, Diplomacy, War, Metallurgy, History... Need I go on?

And the Scientific Method doesn't tell us what DID exist, it tells us what DIDN'T exist. And a technological society like ours DIDN'T. It left no traces of resource gathering. No traces of large cities. No traces of the use of ANY fossil fuels. No large metal structures. No plastics. If we were all to die today, you could come back to this planet in 10,000 years and read our footsteps in the earth as easily as if we'd just passed. Civilisation, by its very nature, affects the world around it. We are finding stone age settlements because of potshards, leather and bone fragments, burials and post holes.

I can only assume you haven't thought clearly about the extent of what you're suggesting, because it utterly beggars scientific explanation.

As for the "flood", science is fairly adamant that there was no world wide deluge, as you mention, either 6,000 years ago or at any point within traceable history. Continents have risen and fallen, yes, but not so soon, and not so violently. The biggest dissuader is the unbroken icecore records that we have from the pole, but there are many other indicators too.
 
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