Damage meter mods

Darkpanda

Darkpanda

New Member
I am currently using swstats to measure my toons dps. I am curious as to whether different damage meter mods provide different measures of dps, and if they do, which is most accurate.

I guess it could depend on how each mod measures the dps. I am unfamiliar as to how each mod measures this dps value.

Damage meters are only valuable to me in as much as they help me guage where my rogue/pally are at as dpsers, and where they need to be to progress further in content. I hear numbers being tossed around as to where you are expected to be at, but if meters vary then it is really only a worthwhile value if we share the same type of meter.

What are your experiences with damage meters, and what ones are the most commonly used in the forgiven and sga.

Thanks in advance,
Sean

ps: My experience with swstats is that instance dps is always much lower than world mob dps. It makes sense because we are fighting elites after all in instances, but just curious as to which mob type you guys use to guage your dps. That is all for this post :)
 
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Just a comment on your PS. When I was a DPS Warrior, my dps seemed to go up significantly from soloing when in an instance, usually because I wouldn't get to wail on a mob with 5 sunders for very long when soloing (usually they were nearly dead if I stacked 5 sunders myself). With a tank sundering quicker, and the mobs lasting longer, my dps went up, I think. Also group buffs made a big difference. As I say, it wasn't measured, but I always noticed bigger damage #s in instances than soloing.
 
I would have to agree with Baraach, at least as far as mages go. In a raid, you have many buffs from various classes which can directly or indirectly increase your damage. Also, usually you've got a food buff and flask or elixir buffs, which typically you won't use when soloing.
 
There are also other factors that contribute - the biggest I've seen is that some meters (especially Recount) start recording the "per second" against the group for any one member being in combat... so if I chase rats around all night... when I flag for combat, it lowers everyone else's per second rating.

I know that when I'm tanking on my druid, I mess everyone up because I like to Fairie Fire the rats to keep my rage built up between fights.

The best idea, is like you said - you have to compare numbers on the same meter, similar buffs/foods/potions/oils/stones/etc to really see if your numbers are near "posted averages".

I know I've seen a lot of groups that devise gear requirements for each spec just for this reason. They assume that if you can get X-Spell damage, or X-defense, or # +hit (or whatever)... you should be able to crank out an appropriate amount of damage.
 
Baraach,

That sounds more like a choice in casting sequence more than anything. Perhaps only 1 or two sunders in on a regular mob then your heavy damage abilities should come to play. Is it worth stacking 5 sunders when the mob will die before you can really use them effectively? It would make sense that your dps might go up as a result of differing place style.

//end response to Baraach

I think what I was trying to convey was what Durruck mentioned. Another thing that seems to happen every now and then is that the numbers go totally out of wack. The other day I was doing upwards of 1900 dps, according to swstats, on my ret pally...in my dreams. I'm just not sure I can trust that measue anymore.

Would a more effective measurement be total damage done? You would have to consider idle time on certain boss fights when you consider that number, but once you take that into account might that be a better measurement?

Another possibility to take into consideration is if your dps is listed as higher than your party mates, and the total damage does not corrolate to what you would expect from that, what do you do with those measurements? Do you justify the discrepency as a result of idle time? Do you only take dps measurement if the two corrolate?

Anyways, just food for thought and discussion.

Sean

p.s: Just to clarify my motivation for this discussion. From discussions with some members of the guild, dps is the be all end all measurement for kara raid viability. As I have come to distrust the measurement, I wanted to discuss alternative and even more accurate ways of measuring raid viability.
 
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Darkpanda said:
Baraach,

That sounds more like a choice in casting sequence more than anything. Perhaps only 1 or two sunders in on a regular mob then your heavy damage abilities should come to play. Is it worth stacking 5 sunders when the mob will die before you can really use them effectively? It would make sense that your dps might go up as a result of differing place style.

//end response to Baraach
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You could be right Sean. In my experience soloing, if I took the time to stack 5 sunders, the mob was usually down to about 1/3 or 1/4 health, and it didn't seem worth it for the extra dps from those last few swings (with a big 2-hander). Also it could be the balance of mitigation and dps while soloing (spending rage on demo shout, thunder-clap, and even possibly disarm) as opposed to dps-ing an instance, where someone else is doing the mitigation, and I spend all my rage on damage. But I'm a prot warrior now, so I don't dps instances, and I spam devastate while soloing, so always get 5 sunders :D

Sorry I don't have much to comment on your main point. I use Damage Meters occasionally, but more for interest's sake (or to gloat when I was out-dpsing my brother's warlock :p (he's since changed his spec, and now owns me.....) It seems pretty good, but I haven't used it enough in instances to really compare dps, and see if its accurate.
 
Darkpanda said:
From discussions with some members of the guild, dps is the be all end all measurement for kara raid viability.
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Yes and no. Nearly every DPS class has some other way they benefit the group than just dps. Buffs/debuffs, cleanses/spellsteals/silences, healthstones, soulstones, kiting, trapping/freezing/shackles, misdirects, offtanking, offhealing... there are so many little factors to take into consideration.

While your main job is DPS, your secondary roles can be just as important, in some cases. Ever done Moroes with 2 tanks, no shackles, no traps? It's nearly impossible. Library with all casters? It'll take you forever to clear the mobs.

Every class has things that they need to be able to do to make the group successful. DPS is a huge part of it, but you have to be good at the other stuff. Control your threat, protect your healers... it all matters.

But tanks can only tank as long as they get heals, healers can only heal as long as they have mana. So DPS really is the key to any encounter - DPS has to kill the boss before healers are OOM. I might be "elitist" or whatever, but I'm one of those people that thinks you have to be able to do a decent amount of damage if you're a DPS class. Otherwise, everyone else is taking up slack for you... which slows down the group as a whole (or even makes certain encounters impossible).

Many boss fights in Kara are DPS races - you may have healers that have a big enough mana pool to keep the tanks up for an hour, but if the DPS doesn't finish the mob in time, it enrages and everyone died.

As I have come to distrust the measurement, I wanted to discuss alternative and even more accurate ways of measuring raid viability.
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There are other things I look at to see if someone is performing. Ever since Molten Core, I've understood the importance of cleansing and trapping at the appropriate times. There isn't a meter that gives you someone's true value - it's just a general feeling you get after watching them play.

I keep saying trapping because I see hunters as one of the most valuable DPS classes. I don't play one, but I'll admit they can be huge. Some hunters have awesome trapping skills - which is awesome. I know that some hunters won't ever miss a trap, and I can rely on them to hold mobs all week if they have to. Others have insane DPS and can obliterate targets (some hunters are too good at DPS and not good enough at controlling threat. There is a breakpoint for being a detriment.) The best hunters have good DPS and awesome trapping/pet usage. Best of both worlds.
 
My 2 cents as a Kara leader. I pick people based on their looks.

Actually I agree with Durruck. DPS is rated high and deservedly so. Kara is a gear heavy instance. You can have people low in some spots as long as others can pick up their slack.
 
Yep which goes to the whole tank/heal combo, can make up for low dps sometimes, but fights become much easier as dps picks up the pace. Playing a healer finding the tipping point for an encounter where I've got enough mana to keep the tank up and deal with other damage the raid might tank is a fun experience. Made possible by dps getting their job done. The tank being able to generate enough threat for the dps to go all out is another key that is encounter dependent. Makes it easier to do the intangables and contribute some small amount of dps which further speeds up the fight...
 
This became very apparent on our runs when we were able to replace one healing "position" with an additional dps'er. Mobs....dropped...faster = less healing required and less chance for weird wipes.

Out of the dps possibilities, every single one brings something additional to the table which just makes the raid go a little smoother. Whether it is buffs or abilities, it all helps, but what helps the most is being able to drop that boss quickly without wiping the group. There are some who simply don't have the gear for certain parts of the raid yet.

I know some of these have to be frustrated at not getting invites etc. I want to remind everyone that there are those who have wiped many many MANY times to get that particular group to where they can do Prince or whatever. They now have the gear and knowledge to make the run smooth and a joy for those who attend. Expecting to jump into one of these smoothly running groups in place of someone who has been there during the wipefests is unrealistic. Spots open up all the time where 'new' people are gladly accepted, but don't get the impression that anyone has a right to go to anything. My overall preference would be to invite the first ten who sign up regardless of their class / abilities, but thats not the way it was designed. Please go ahead and sign up, be open, and if it doesn't work out, enjoy something else.

Oops, sorry for the rant mode. I still get questions about this rather often and have to explain it and it just puked out here.
 
as a leader for kara , yes dps is importantbut if u are watching the dps then you arent doing your job. I care about making sure the group is running smooth and if i hear talk about dps and people are boosting about it i talk to them and then i basically at that time give them a waning, and dps meters for group are turned off. I am not a fan of group dps meters bu i have no problem people running there own dps meter to see how they are doing just better not post it with out permission.
 
As a non-raiding healer who has run in a lot of pugs, I must say I don't like dmg meters. I'm sure they have their good uses, but they are dangerous. Most of the time I see them used, they tend to promote poor play - dps jumping in too early, blasting away at an add on the healer rather than CCing, a general loss of focus on what's happening, wasting mana at the end of a fight trying to finish off a mob (slows everyone down by increasing drinking time), not debuffing another group member's damage type (he's your competition, after all :-() and, probably the most aggravating, a boastful attitude and condescension toward group members.

I have similar feelings toward ranking systems used by management to set pay and bonuses to reflect contributions by employees. They can be dangerous if management isn't paying close attention. Situations can arise where teamwork gets tossed. Some folks stop helping others, since that takes time away from their own assignments at the same time helping a "competitor" on theirs. Anything that gets people seeing their co-workers as competitors is a bad thing in my book.

Off my soapbox - sorry 'bout that.
 
I can see where some take damage meters too far, like in a pug for example, but as a raid leader I would view it as a useful tool to bring as much information as possible concerning the raid performance. The more statistics that one can bring to bear, the better off you will be in diagnosing issues with an encounter.

My two cents on the ethics of damage meters,
Sean
 
there is beneits but I think that progs and me dont use them not sure about nath and jasons team. to me as long as they arent bing watched ever 5 secs they ok, like we run death count for the raid for fun.
 
If I'm not at the top of the death count, I obviously wasn't there the whole time :D

I don't watch damage meters that closely, unless I'm trying to compare overall how I'm doing against others in my class during certain situations. Am I pumping out enough AoE damage when needed? Am I starting too soon and dying for it? Am I keeping on during trash mobs? Do I need to change my spell rotation? There are a lot of good things that can come from damage meters - knowing where you are vs others in your same class... how specs, gear, and spell selection ultimately effect your total damage for the night, deaths, threat, etc.

But I don't watch mid-fight and start popping trinkets and specials if I see I'm falling behind on damage output, either. It's a delicate balance (that I obviously fail at). When I pull agro and die - it's not because I'm watching the damage meter, it's because I like to see big damage numbers over enemy heads and forget to watch my threat. I pulled Moroes the other night because I was just sitting back, applying debuffs, and stacking my abilities to do maximum damage too long. I noobed it up.

I might have ended third on the damage out meter, but for a long time, I was also third on damage taken (only behind the 2 tanks). I have a sneaking suspicion that if I hadn't died so early on Shade, I still could have kept 3rd place.

Obviously, the different meters tell me a lot about how I play, how others play, and that I need to work on a few things. And trust me, just because I laugh about dying *again* doesn't mean I don't think about what caused it to try to reduce my deaths in any given night. I hate the repair bill.
 
Like my often finding himself dead mage friend says they can help you improve your performance relative to the same class in raids. They are a detriment when people only focus on the pew pew pew factor of them. Maintaining, crowd control at the cost to dps is often key to quickly dealing with a particular encounter. If the CC breaks and isn't quickly recovered, you or another dpser or healer can find themselves closely examining the floor.

For the group as a whole numbers can be very telling. What is the groups overall dps? As you progress there are encounters that are dps races. How much healing is going out and who is getting it is another key indicator of raid success. Ben and I were chatting during our romp through Kara this Tuesday, while the run was successful, we noted we had significantly more heals going out and more deaths in places we normally don't have them. Checking meters for data and reviewing execution of various encounters is generally how you improve your play in WoW similarly to any other sport, contest or endeavor.

He who boasts loudest about their dps is usually not trusted to do key things to success, like shackle, sheep, trap, cleanse, interrupt etc. etc. all those intangibles that allow you to successfully defeat and encounter. Meters can be very positive need to use them that way like anything else.
 
Is there a way you can set SWStats to reset it's measurements for a given encounter? Or perhaps start another "session" or instanciation that one could use to measure his/her performance over a given encounter week by week? Also is there a mod, in addition to a dam meter or a dam meter that provides this function, that allows such information to be stored in a handy text file for your later use? Even if I manage to top an encounter, or if I come up short on it, I always seek to improve my performance. Something like this would be usefull.

Sean
 
As a side note, great to hear from you Allen. Was wondering how you've been.

For me dps meters are crucial. I do feel that I know how to use them though. I like to know how my class stacks up against other classes as well as the other same classes in the raid. It's an important factor in gaugeing my progress. There is a whole other part of the toon that shouldn't be ignored, cc or off-healing when needed being a few examples. As far as boasting about dps I think I may fall into that category also. I do like to goad other people into watching the meters. It may be counterproductive in some ways but I think it keeps people on there toes and not sitting back for a free ride. One other thing I thought of is if you are watching the dps meter you're probably using all the consumables available in order to max your own dps. Just a theory I guess. Oh and if I've ever came across as boasting I'm sorry, it's just my character I guess. I was called a "hot dog" whilst playing little league baseball.
 
Hi Tone. I'm doing good, just still don't have an internet connection that is compatible with WoW (>500 msec latency).

None of my comments were talking about any guild runs, among already good players (e.g. I never saw a guild warlock refusing to apply curse of elements because mages were catching up on the damage meters). I still don't like the meters, but when they're causing no problems, I can endure. I was just describing the pick-up group experiences I've had with meters. I've been in PUGs where nice people were treated horribly because of low damage contribution - often by players pulling some of the stunts I described.

Believe me, Tone, "boastful attitude" and "condescension" are not terms I'd ever use to describe you, or any of the other guildees I've been on runs with.
 
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