Definition of Theodicy: God and Suffering

That was a nice, succinct and accurate definition and explanation - very helpful - thanks.
 
Evil is the absence of good I have heard people say. Just as darkness is the absence of light. If God is pure good (holy) Then without Him there can be only evil.

I echo Abba San in his saying

Abba San said:
That was a nice, succinct and accurate definition and explanation - very helpful - thanks.
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xavier55 said:
Q. What are the arguments against God in relation with evil and suffering?

* If God is good, evil cannot exist, but evil is the fact of life, therefore God does not exist.
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Evil does not 'exist' per say, as it is not an entity. Evil is an action with malicious intent, every bit as much as Love is an action with benevolent intent. When it is said men commit evil acts, they are deemed evil for not following God, who is good :)


xavier55 said:
* If God is all good and all powerful, then God should prevent evil. but evil still exists. Therefore, God is either not all good or not all powerful, but both cannot be true.
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God created man in His image, as moral agents working under a Moral Government, His Government. :)

Men have the choice to either submit to His Governement, and so reap Eternal Life, or refuse, and so suffer the consequences, to the detriment of thier very own souls. Jesus came down from Heaven because we sinned and were in need of not only being reconciled, but in being washed clean of our sins so that we could serve the Living God. :)

xavier55 said:
Q. Are these arguments really against God?

* When one speak of evil, what is inferred? Who gives the standard of good and evil? What is just and unjust? Without universal, divine standard, we call it ‘law’, how can we answer the question of evil?
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Many things can be 'inferred' when one speaks of evil.

For instance, it is said in Scripture that the Lord will bring evil upon the nation that does not serve Him, in speaking of Israel. While this is an act of Justice in that the Lord dispenses retribution for sin, it is also and act of Mercy, for without the chastisement/Judgement of the Lord, no one learns anything.

Yet, there is also the much lauded view of evil as an act of unjust proportions. Hurting others for the sake of hurting others comes to mind, as do many other things I do not wish to think on :eek:

And yet, still, there is [thought of] evil in the sense of no redeeming worth, which I find abhorrant to Scriptural revelation in regards to mankind.

The only ones I can possibly imagine being of no redeeming worth are the devil and his minions, who both knew God as Loving and Light, yet turned away from Him, to thier own hurt, and ours. :(

God is the ultimate standard of right and wrong.
And He is revealed to us, not only by His Holy Spirit [the actual Person of the Godhead, as well as His Inspired Word given in Scripture] but also through creation.. We are made in His Image, with the faculty of conscious to guide us in our daily decisions to do right or wrong.


xavier55 said:
Q. Can God use evil to do good?
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The answer is a resounding NO!

If the Allmighty requires ANYTHING in order to do good, then He is not Allmighty!

Can He, yes, but does He, no.
For He is not capable of evil actions [malicious intent].
He refuses to act unrighteously.
Rather, He brings light out of darkness.
He works all things together for good to those that love Him! :D

xavier55 said:
* Joseph in old testament is a great example of God using evil for the greater good (Genesis 50:20).
* Jesus’ death on the cross is ultimate example of God using evil for the greatest good for the mankind.
* God has offered a final triumph over evil and suffering of this world through death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
* Romans 8:28 – “And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.”
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I ask you, was it ever the Lord's intention that Joseph was sold into slavery and imprisoned?
Was it ever the Lord's intention that His Only Begotten Son should suffer as He did on the cross?

If the Father were on earth, would He have crucified His very own Son?

I answer, NO, it can never be!

Acts 2:23
Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

God allowed Jesus to suffer at the hands of wicked men, percieving the consequences.
If Jesus was never crucified, things would have been EVEN better off for us than they are now, believe it or not!

Funny, but in ALL the other questions you did not post any Scripture to back any of the questions..

The only reason it is required in this instance it because it goes against the very grain of our nature, our God-given moral nature.
 
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In order for this to remain a peacful place for the Body of Christ to gather, without discrimination, I believe two things are in order.

1) No denominational theology aught to be espoused on these boards, such as Calvinism and Arminianism, ect.. Or you WILL have opposing views.

2) Teach on things that are pure, things that are lovely, good repute, ect, even as the Apostle stated.

Teaching on such subjects as the Love of God, Hope, Joy in the Holy Spirit, Worship of our King, ect would be not only be tolerated, but WELCOMED by every Christian.

I'm not trying to be contentious, please understand that much-lol
What I desire is for our unity in the Holy Spirit.

But teaching denomination-specific doctrine is, imo, unwarranted here.

If you wish to discuss denomination-specific theories there are whole boards, with thousands upon thousands of members with which to do so.

I myself am a member of christianforums.com and carm.org which both espouse opposing views where Christians can 'hash it out', but this is a gaming forum-lol-where we come together to HAVE FUN! :cool:
 
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Zeena,

Thank you for your comments. I'm not clear what you mean by 'denomination-specific' doctrine. Calvinism and Arminianism are theological systems more than denominational. I'm not trying to be picky here - just as you are not trying to be contentious. I didn't take your comments that way. I do want to respond to your notion of limiting what can be posted in the Bible Study thread.

The Bible is the Bible and Bible study needs to include the full Bible - the good the bad and the ugly. That is why we have a Bible study thread on the forum. It would be a pretty bland forum if every comment were welcomed by every Christian. You have been on the forums long enough to see that there are Christians who are easily offended - even by statements about salvation or love or angels or peace - pick the positive topic of your choice. Even the pure, noble, and lovely topics are controversial for some people.

Theology is the process of collecting scriptures about God and different aspects of His kingdom. Once you start collecting scripture there is generally some bias attached - even in the verses you decide to select. There is merit in the statements posted by xavier55 and merit in the posting you made, as well. There are also things in your AND xavier55's posting that I might not agree with. Because I disagree, that doesn't mean you are wrong or you should not post.

The problem comes when people posting become so dogmatic that another opinion cannot be expressed. There are things Christians should be dogmatic about - i.e. the Bible is God's word - Jesus is the Son of God - man is sinful - Jesus paid the price for our sins - no one comes to the Father but by Jesus - Jesus is coming again - and a few more. There are also things we should not be so dogmatic about - when Jesus is coming again - where heaven and hell are located -what is the proper way to manage a church - which is the best English version of the Bible - how God works all things together for good - who will be the greatest in heaven - again, pick your contoversial issue.

These are the issues it is fun to discuss and educational to see what others think and why. I wouldn't want to have a Bible study forum that specifically said you cannot bring up controversial or difficult issues. That is how I have grown through the years. Bumping up against views and opinions that were different from mine made me re-explore the Bible to know where I stand.

I don't visit a lot of other forums - I just don't have the time. One of the strengths of the Christian Gamers Alliance forums is that there are threads for serious Christian discussion and prayer, threads for fun Gamers stuff, and threads for Alliance business and fellowship. I appreciate the variety and diversity in our forum. And anyone can pick which threads they want to follow. I hope it will stay that way.
 
Abba San said:
Zeena,

Thank you for your comments. I'm not clear what you mean by 'denomination-specific' doctrine. Calvinism and Arminianism are theological systems more than denominational. I'm not trying to be picky here - just as you are not trying to be contentious. I didn't take your comments that way. I do want to respond to your notion of limiting what can be posted in the Bible Study thread.

The Bible is the Bible and Bible study needs to include the full Bible - the good the bad and the ugly. That is why we have a Bible study thread on the forum. It would be a pretty bland forum if every comment were welcomed by every Christian. You have been on the forums long enough to see that there are Christians who are easily offended - even by statements about salvation or love or angels or peace - pick the positive topic of your choice. Even the pure, noble, and lovely topics are controversial for some people.

Theology is the process of collecting scriptures about God and different aspects of His kingdom. Once you start collecting scripture there is generally some bias attached - even in the verses you decide to select. There is merit in the statements posted by xavier55 and merit in the posting you made, as well. There are also things in your AND xavier55's posting that I might not agree with. Because I disagree, that doesn't mean you are wrong or you should not post.

The problem comes when people posting become so dogmatic that another opinion cannot be expressed. There are things Christians should be dogmatic about - i.e. the Bible is God's word - Jesus is the Son of God - man is sinful - Jesus paid the price for our sins - no one comes to the Father but by Jesus - Jesus is coming again - and a few more. There are also things we should not be so dogmatic about - when Jesus is coming again - where heaven and hell are located -what is the proper way to manage a church - which is the best English version of the Bible - how God works all things together for good - who will be the greatest in heaven - again, pick your contoversial issue.

These are the issues it is fun to discuss and educational to see what others think and why. I wouldn't want to have a Bible study forum that specifically said you cannot bring up controversial or difficult issues. That is how I have grown through the years. Bumping up against views and opinions that were different from mine made me re-explore the Bible to know where I stand.

I don't visit a lot of other forums - I just don't have the time. One of the strengths of the Christian Gamers Alliance forums is that there are threads for serious Christian discussion and prayer, threads for fun Gamers stuff, and threads for Alliance business and fellowship. I appreciate the variety and diversity in our forum. And anyone can pick which threads they want to follow. I hope it will stay that way.
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Is this an official postion?
Do you have Tek's permission to make such a call?

I can post on anything I want as long as it's Biblically sound in my eyes, even if not considered 'orthodox'?
 
Zeena said:
xavier55 said:
Q. Can God use evil to do good?
Click to expand...
The answer is a resounding NO!

If the Allmighty requires ANYTHING in order to do good, then He is not Allmighty!

Can He, yes, but does He, no.
For He is not capable of evil actions [malicious intent].
He refuses to act unrighteously.
Rather, He brings light out of darkness.
He works all things together for good to those that love Him!
Click to expand...

I didn't read xavier55's post to mean that God wants us to perform evil acts, or needs us to do them so that He can use them for good.... but rather can He use our evil deeds to accomplish His will? And with the citation of Joseph being sold into slavery, it appears that the answer is yes. God didn't want Joseph to be sold into slavery, but found a way use that event (which was perpetrated by sinful human hands) to save Israel from starvation.

Zeena said:
xavier55 said:
* Joseph in old testament is a great example of God using evil for the greater good (Genesis 50:20).
* Jesus’ death on the cross is ultimate example of God using evil for the greatest good for the mankind.
* God has offered a final triumph over evil and suffering of this world through death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
* Romans 8:28 – “And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.”
Click to expand...
I ask you, was it ever the Lord's intention that Joseph was sold into slavery and imprisoned?
Was it ever the Lord's intention that His Only Begotten Son should suffer as He did on the cross?

If the Father were on earth, would He have crucified His very own Son?

I answer, NO, it can never be!
Click to expand...

Was it God intention for Joseph to be sold into slavery? No. Joseph's brothers did that from their own coveting. Nor did God need it to happen to accomplish His will. But, God has a habit of responding to our evilness with goodness. It's His way to prove to us that He is more powerful than whatever sins we commit.

Was it the Lord's intention for (Jesus to) suffer as He did on the cross? I think yes. Zechariah 12:10 and Psalms 22:16 were parts of the prophecies that Jesus would be pierced.

Isaiah 53:9-10 says that it is the Lord's will to crush Him.

Isaiah 53:5-7 and Isaiah 53:12 predict that He would bear the sins of man.

Matthew 26:39Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will." Jesus shows us to commit ourselves to God's authority, even if we don't like it.


Zeena said:
Acts 2:23
Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

God allowed Jesus to suffer at the hands of wicked men, percieving the consequences.
If Jesus was never crucified, things would have been EVEN better off for us than they are now, believe it or not!
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I'm not sure that I understand the line you draw between the scripture and your statement. God wouldn't put Jesus on the cross Himself - that evil act would be performed by man. But perceived consequences? If Jesus was not crucified, the Old Testament law about needing a blood sacrifice would still be in effect. We would still have to pay for our own sins. If Jesus wasn't crucified, God could not have resurrected Him from the dead - showing His power over death. If Jesus didn't hang on the cross, the prophecy would not have been fulfilled, and God would have been shown a liar.

It was fully in God's plan for Jesus to die on that cross, to show His power of truth, His power over sin, and even power over death.

How could things be better off without the crucifixion? We'd still be under the old law with no hope of salvation, save rituals of sacrifice... which obviously weren't working out since the Pharacees and Saducees has already corrupted them and turned them into empty rituals.

Matthew 5:17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

Jesus ripped apart everything the religious leaders taught because they missed the point. Without Jesus' sacrifice, death, and resurrection, we'd still be following the old rituals, missing the point - and the path to eternity with God.
 
Zeena said:
I can post on anything I want as long as it's Biblically sound in my eyes, even if not considered 'orthodox'?
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If you have scriptural support, then feel free. This is a Bible Study forum. If you have a topic you'd like to review for us, please do. While Cool_Hand_Luke is the moderator of this forum, we're all free to post.

Part of study is hermeneutics - trying to understand what the texts say. Since the Bible is written in two languages that aren't even spoken today, there's a lot of study that happens as we try to translate and unlock everything that God wanted us to know from His Word. Somehow, I doubt that we've found out everything there is to possibly know about God's plan. Otherwise, there wouldn't be Young Earth/Old Earth Creation debates. There wouldn't be Calvinism and Arminianism, there wouldn't be Lutherans, Baptists, Methodists, Pentecostal, Churches of Christ, Episcopalians... there would just be Christians.

However, I would caution you - for as many of us as there are that read the forums, there are likely as many different opinions on how to interpret any given passage. So you may need to come back and provide further Biblical support for any statement you make.

And there are times that denominational differences will just come to a stalemate - Capitol Punishment, Abortion, and Suicide are just three of the many places that denominations disagree. Posting a study that agrees with one denomination may spark discussion from another denomination. Be prepared to let those discussions die. You may not ever be able to convince another person of your side, and they may never be able to convince you to believe what they believe. It was like that shortly after Jesus' Ascension (the pages of the New Testament clearly tell us that some of the apostles went their separate ways because they couldn't agree on everything). Such topics are still welcome, but may get locked to prevent the discussion turning into an all-out flame war.
 
God does not want us to do anything evil but he will allow things to happen to us! it may not be for our gory but it will be for his glory! Look at Job he allow stuff to happen to him, but at the end God bless Job double!
So now if you really want to discuss about evil and not think like a christian why did he allow 9/11 to happen or the holocaust? There is evil all around us but no sin is greater then another! At the end we need to realize that anything god does it is not for us but for him!!! Men have their free will and the angels do not even like that we have a choice! But who are they to have a say! I hope i did not confuse anyone in this statement! For the people who get offended about this study all i can say is good!!! Why you may ask? It is for you to study it and understand! We get offended when you don't understand each other! What the bible say's it means it in no other way! It is to the point! But i pray that we gain knowledge form what the bible is saying and not bickering! God Bless
 
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