John 3:16

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] ]He choose us! Gen made a wonderful point, too. We are speaking of the Spiritual realm, there are only two choices. Well, the enemy would love you to think you can have any option that you want, he has offered many gods. But God offers the choicest of the choice!

Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. John 15:16

He has already chosen us, now it is left up to us, to choose Him.

EH? Who is choosing who? Has God chosen us, as in Predestination, or do we have Free Will to choose Him?

Quote[/b] ]It is not up to us to understand it all, or to be able to explain everything.

If you don't understand any of it or if you can't explain any of it, then you're nothing more than a mindless worship-bot.

I would rather think that God expects you to use the melon between our ears to make this decision, no?

 

[Genesis1315]

Quote[/b] ]EH? Who is choosing who? Has God chosen us, as in Predestination, or do we have Free Will to choose Him?

Predistination is actually the second step in a process. First, God has a foreknowledge of who will accept Christ. Then, for those who choose Christ, God has a purpose for us (predestines), then we are called, justified and glorified.

We still have the choice, God just knows who will accept that choice.

Gen

 

[Weazel]

Quote[/b] ]You're only seeing half the picture.  Given that God has given us an ultimatum, doesn't that negate the wonderful gift of Free Will?

What the heck is the point of Free Will if we don't have two EVENLY WEIGHTED choices?

Free will is a very sticky subject. I do cannot remember what the Bible verses are, but I remember a Bible Study conducted by a very studius, intelligent man. The basic jist of it is that we were given these two choices, and no one chose God. God, in His infinate wisdom, realised this and because of His mercy, He chose select people to be saved.

I'm not saying this is the truth; I personally find it hard to agree with until I see more evidence of it. My point though is that there are differing opinions about free will and predestination. You're not going to get an answer in one sitting, that's for sure.

Quote[/b] ]Because roughly 67% of the world doesn't believe in your God to begin with.

The first part of salvation is believing in God. That's the very simple message in John 3:16.

Quote[/b] ]Weasel, I love it!  You are wise beyond your years.

Thanks, although I disagree.

 

[Marcylene]

In addition, when He sent His son, He died for the whole world! He died for each individual.

grrr you, D.V.! I try to explain. Silver and gold have I none, but what I have I have given unto you. However, it is my lack that I cannot explain it all. There are questions that you raise that I am unable to answer. Some, like the whole, complete, entire life of Jesus not in the Bible...I do not know why, and as much as I try to know the Bible, I have yet to find the answer to that question. Now, I can assume! We do good to read the part of the life of Jesus that we have here. Besides,

And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen. John 21:25

that would be tough to haul to church and carry around with me! I think He knew my finite lil' melon could never comprehend it's entirety. Therefore, He left me with what I needed.

The bottom line is faith.
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Hebrews 11:6

I am not certain why He asked for sacrifice, He tells us that obedience is better than sacrifice. I know it was picturing Christ and faith each time an offering was given. I do know the only sacrifice that He delights in today, is such an easy thing to give, considering how much He loves us, the Maker of Heaven and Earth, concerned with and loving me! Imagine!

And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. Mark 12:33

If you cannot do it with the whole, I beseech you, start with a sliver! He loves us more than we have ever, or will ever be loved. I do not pretend to have all the answers, or to even assume that he gave us the "why" to everything. I just have faith, that whatever He chooses for me, is simply because He has my best interest in His heart full of love.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] (Genesis1315 @ Nov. 04 2004,6:22)]

Quote[/b] ]EH? Who is choosing who? Has God chosen us, as in Predestination, or do we have Free Will to choose Him?

Predistination is actually the second step in a process. First, God has a foreknowledge of who will accept Christ. Then, for those who choose Christ, God has a purpose for us (predestines), then we are called, justified and glorified.

We still have the choice, God just knows who will accept that choice.

Gen

What's the point in going through all of this if God already knows?

Couldn't he, nay, SHOULDN'T he have just cut to the chase and created only those who would choose him?

THEN we would have never needed evil and pain in the world.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Marcy, I'll give you a dollar if you can post a message without including a bible verse

 

[Marcylene]

Does my signature count?
I am hurt!  You would rebuke Byb for his lack of Scripture reference

 

[Marcylene]

About that dollar, D.V.  God's Word is far more precious than gold.  

The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.  
The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.  
The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.  
More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.
Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.  
Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults.  
Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression.  
Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.  Psalm 19: 7~ 14

In truth, the Bible verses are the only truly important thing that I have to say!

 

[Avesther]

Quote[/b] (Marcylene @ Nov. 04 2004,9:18)]Does my signature count?
I am hurt! You would rebuke Byb for his lack of Scripture reference

DV, you owe Marcylene a buck. pay up!!!

And she has you there, you blast Byb for not providing scriptural support and then rebuke Marcy for doing so.

Dude...you can't have it both ways. Its kind of, well, hypocritical of you.

 

[SLNT_FIR]

ooo... this is what my friend does. he's HECKA funny. he does lotsa stupid magic tricks too.

*billy one*
*chest-hair, zero* (name chester we changed it to chest-hair.) he's our small group leader

 

[Marcylene]

Quote[/b] (Gods_Peon @ Nov. 04 2004,9:37)]DV, you owe Marcylene a buck.  pay up!!!

Thank you, GP.  I appreciate that tremendously!  Chivalry seems alive and well after all!  

Considering that you ask me to give up something more desirable than gold, I would second the motion AND raise it!  When Bowser returns he gets a collar with the words to Romans 10:13.  This dog gets around, may as well use him for a witness!

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.  Romans 10:13

Furthermore, both wife and daughter get individual quality time with you.  Each separately should get to go shopping for something that they would like, then to their favorite restaurant.  It is that time of year again when finances can be tight.  If this is the case, the Dollar Tree and a dollar burger is fine

You heard the gentleman, pay up!  

 

[MisfiT]

Quote[/b] ]
I think I understand Free Will better than you think you do.

Uh... from your posts, I am confident that you don't.  Trust me on this one, DV.  
My first degree is in philosophy where my focus was logic, philosophy of mind, with several
courses to do with philosophy of language.  Several of the madatory courses address the topic
of free will, so, as you might guess, this sort is something that I do understand quite well.  
And since I have a great interest in free will and related concepts, I have studied much on this
topic, and have read many a paper from professors with much greater knowledge than both you and I.

DV, my recommendation to you, is to take some philosophy courses, read some solid articles on
these topics.  (And google searches DO NOT count.  Lotta garbage out there in internet land.)
You seem to enjoy this sort of thing, so might as well become educated in it, no?

Back to the discussion...

Quote[/b] ]
Let's look at your analogy...you claim that saying your name or dying is a CHOICE.  While technically correct,
you are missing the details...something you claim I dwell on.

DV, DV, DV, technically correct sounds quite logical, no?  Are you saying that my comment was technically correct,
yet still incorrect?  Logic would seem more about technically correct, no?  I mean, consider the following:

I am a person with two arms and two legs.  Healthy and well.  Now, if I stand up and say, "I have one arm".
Is that statement true?  Many people would argue that it is not true since, in fact, I have two arms.  They might argue
that there is an implied "only", so that what I am really saying is "I have only one arm".  Incorrect.  I did not say that.  
In logic, all we may go by is what is at hand.  If the statement is "I have one arm", then that is all we may consider.  So,
whatever the cultural speech norm may be, whatever I may like it to be, or whaver else, they do not matter.  "I have one arm"
is a true statement if I have at least one arm.

DV, you seem to be getting caught up in a simlar mistake, or at least in the terms.  Something being an 'Ultimatum' does
not negate a 'choice'.  I believe that you are trying to suggest that an ultimatum is something that takes the place of a
choice.  One thing I fancy about definitions, is that they tend to make the points clear.  Is not an ultimatum simply some
form of demand?  Some final proposition?

Then from an ultimatum, is not some choice expected?  Oh wait... it's right there in the definition.  "...especially one whose
rejection will end negotiations and cause a resort to force or other direct action".  So from an ultimatum it would seem
that a choice must be made, at very least to either accept or else reject the ultimatum.  Whether God presented us with a choice
or an ultimatum it would seem that we have a 'real' choice.

But let's keep going...

What is this mumbo jumbo about 'sufficient' choices?  Because one is 'good' and the other 'bad', entirely subjective,
then there are insufficient choices?  DV, if you have choice A and B, then I do not see how you have less than sufficient choices,
whatever that means.  Whatever else you bring into the discussion about one being 'good' and the other 'bad'
does not negate the choice nor the choosing.

DV, I believe that I know what you want to do.  You want to conclude that since there is an ultimatum, then there is
not a 'real' choice.  Perhaps you want to say that it's not fair since there is a choice to make and you don't like the options.
But that does not negate the choice, choosing, or whatever else.  Perhaps you want to say that since one option is eternal
damnation, then there are not really two choices?  But that is where logic, language, or whatever you name it, defeats you.  
A choice is a choice, however 'good' or 'bad' it is still a choice, an option, and alternative.  Similar to the "I have one arm",
you can not say that because you consider one choice 'good' and one choice 'bad', then you do not have a real choice.  That is absurd.

Quote[/b] ]
So I ask you, what good is Free Will when you have a gun pointed at your head?  It is a compulsion by threat, ie DURESS.  
That's not acceptable in a court of law for a reason.

Compulsion and duress do not negate the choice nor the choosing.  The courts may have some consideration for such
where certain actions are excusable due to duress etc. but such does not enter into logic.  A choice is a choice is
a choice.  Always wanted to say that.  Anyway, the point of free will is that we are not robots.  Robot life seems so
boring.

 

[Dark Virtue]

I'll give you a dollar credit to my FreeThinker store. HEHE

Marcy knows I love her!

 

[Marcylene]

Yea, right! I am feling the loooovvvveeee!

I always hope, you do the same

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] (MisfiT @ Nov. 05 2004,6:31)]

Quote[/b] ]Uh... from your posts, I am confident that you don't. Trust me on this one, DV.
My first degree is in philosophy where my focus was logic, philosophy of mind, with several
courses to do with philosophy of language. Several of the madatory courses address the topic
of free will, so, as you might guess, this sort is something that I do understand quite well.
And since I have a great interest in free will and related concepts, I have studied much on this
topic, and have read many a paper from professors with much greater knowledge than both you and I.

DV, my recommendation to you, is to take some philosophy courses, read some solid articles on
these topics. (And google searches DO NOT count. Lotta garbage out there in internet land.)
You seem to enjoy this sort of thing, so might as well become educated in it, no?

I minored in Philosophy, so I took all the same classes you did, with the addition of several Philosophy of Religion classes.

If you think I don't understand something, I suggest you point it out.

Quote[/b] ]DV, DV, DV, technically correct sounds quite logical, no? Are you saying that my comment was technically correct,
yet still incorrect? Logic would seem more about technically correct, no? I mean, consider the following:

I am a person with two arms and two legs. Healthy and well. Now, if I stand up and say, "I have one arm".
Is that statement true? Many people would argue that it is not true since, in fact, I have two arms. They might argue
that there is an implied "only", so that what I am really saying is "I have only one arm". Incorrect. I did not say that.
In logic, all we may go by is what is at hand. If the statement is "I have one arm", then that is all we may consider. So,
whatever the cultural speech norm may be, whatever I may like it to be, or whaver else, they do not matter. "I have one arm"
is a true statement if I have at least one arm.

DV, you seem to be getting caught up in a simlar mistake, or at least in the terms. Something being an 'Ultimatum' does
not negate a 'choice'. I believe that you are trying to suggest that an ultimatum is something that takes the place of a
choice. One thing I fancy about definitions, is that they tend to make the points clear. Is not an ultimatum simply some
form of demand? Some final proposition?

Then from an ultimatum, is not some choice expected? Oh wait... it's right there in the definition. "...especially one whose
rejection will end negotiations and cause a resort to force or other direct action". So from an ultimatum it would seem
that a choice must be made, at very least to either accept or else reject the ultimatum. Whether God presented us with a choice
or an ultimatum it would seem that we have a 'real' choice.

I never said an ultimatum negated choice. I said an ultimatum negated Free Will. You're making an incorrect assertation based on things I didn't say. If you're that confused, please go back and reread my posts. In them you will see I draw a distinction between CHOICE and ULTIMATUM. Yes, an ultimatum still requires a choice...note that I never said otherwise. When you balance the two definitions, ULTIMATUM fits the situation better than CHOICE.

Quote[/b] ]But let's keep going...

What is this mumbo jumbo about 'sufficient' choices? Because one is 'good' and the other 'bad', entirely subjective,
then there are insufficient choices? DV, if you have choice A and B, then I do not see how you have less than sufficient choices,
whatever that means. Whatever else you bring into the discussion about one being 'good' and the other 'bad'
does not negate the choice nor the choosing.

Again, you've missed the boat. By declaring insufficient choices, I am pointing toward the better definition of ULTIMATUM.

Quote[/b] ]
DV, I believe that I know what you want to do.

I don't believe you are even close.

Quote[/b] ]You want to conclude that since there is an ultimatum, then there is
not a 'real' choice. Perhaps you want to say that it's not fair since there is a choice to make and you don't like the options.
But that does not negate the choice, choosing, or whatever else. Perhaps you want to say that since one option is eternal
damnation, then there are not really two choices? But that is where logic, language, or whatever you name it, defeats you.
A choice is a choice, however 'good' or 'bad' it is still a choice, an option, and alternative. Similar to the "I have one arm",
you can not say that because you consider one choice 'good' and one choice 'bad', then you do not have a real choice. That is absurd.

Nice straw man. Unforunately, as I have already pointed out, you have drawn incorrect assumptions. Once again, I never claimed that an ultimatum didn't include a choice. Where you came up with that, I don't know. I was drawing a distinction between the definitions.

Quote[/b] ]Compulsion and duress do not negate the choice nor the choosing. The courts may have some consideration for such
where certain actions are excusable due to duress etc. but such does not enter into logic. A choice is a choice is
a choice. Always wanted to say that. Anyway, the point of free will is that we are not robots. Robot life seems so
boring.

All that and you barely glance over the REAL issue.

So I will ask you once again, hopefully you have a better understanding of the subject. What is the point of declaring Free Will if you are faced with an ultimatum? Sure, you have Free Will to make a CHOICE, but without two equally weighted CHOICES, you are left staring down the barrel of an ultimatum.

 

[SLNT_FIR]

so. like sexual temptation. same idea. a metaphor for my metaphor. lol. here we go. here's my 2nd metaphor. i read it in my teenager thingy mabob book i got when i left junior-h. it says that would you break into a store to get something REAL nice? no. satan does that with us with s.temptations. that address ur barrel of the ultimatum thing.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Would you mind explaining that a bit better, especially how it fits in with the topic?

 

[SLNT_FIR]

i dunno where i got that. at the time i thought it is related. anyway, it IS important. that is essentially what all sin is...

 

[Dark Virtue]

Sin is essentially what?

 

[SLNT_FIR]

that is the main way we are tempted. and you know the definition of sin. search through the depths of your knowledge and you already answered your question. i just gave you the flashlight.

---
i checked out your profile. man are you insane. 23 posts per day!!!!! O_0

-edited: insane not meant in a bad way.