New updated warrior/tank links

Tinie

Tinie

New Member
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I noticed that on the Aggro forumlas page, that devastate is perhaps not accurately portrayed. That is the amount of threat that devastate generates is dependent on the number of sunders on the mob being struck.

Another interesting link is this one:
Oohlas Spreadsheets on Threat Generation

BTW, thanks for posting this Angie. I know I have been thinking a lot about specs and gear for my warrior as of late, always appreciate hearing what others think.
 
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New rage formula per Tseric:




Ok, so the old rage formula averaged a Warrior's rage with 2.5 times weapon speed.

* Main hand hit: 2.5*speed
* Off hand hit: 1.25*speed
* Main hand crit: 5*speed
* Off hand crit: 2.5*speed


The change that occurred in the 2.0.10 patch increased the multiplier to 3.5 times weapon speed.

* Main hand hit: 3.5*speed
* Off hand hit: 1.75*speed
* Main hand crit: 7*speed
* Off hand crit: 3.5*speed



That is what was changed.

Rage Gained from dealing damage = ((Damage Dealt) / (Rage Conversion at Your Level) * 7.5 + (Weapon Speed * Factor))/2
 
Hey Tinie do you ever do this? Never occured to me but would make a 5 man much easier and flow better. -from Ciderhelm's guilde:

"you don't have to tank everything. I rarely tank casters of any sort in a 5-man. I do this so I can generate Threat on the mobs that might actually kill my healer. Since I can only (at a maximum) reduce the damage incoming on caster mobs by 16%, I feel that my DPS classes do fine handling them. By the time DPS'ers are done with the caster mobs, you should be confident that you have enough Threat on all mobs to easily handle them. "
 
Since Burning Crusade instances have many multi mob pulls and we often do not have enough cc for them all, I do this on just about every pull. Alot of the time it is just not casters I give to the group to kill first. It just depends on how hard the mob will hit the dps/off tank as to if I try to keep them all on me, or if I let the dps/off tank have it by themselves, and that just takes practice in running the instances to know. I always pick the hardest hitting mobs to tank, and give the easier ones to the group to kill first. The nice thing about having Connor as the offtank with his feral druid is that if it is a caster, he just stays in kitty and kills them fast, and if it is one we know hits too hard for kitty, he just switches out to bear. He switches out to bear too when we know it is gonna be tough to hold aggro on a boss, like the second boss in Mechanar. We just change rolls as the pull dictates.

As an example, last night we did Mech and Botanica with Connor on his feral druid, Mike on his holy pally, Lisa on her priest, Tarrus on his mage, and me. We only had Tarrus for cc, so that left several 4-5 mob pulls. Several pulls in both of those instances are demons, so that meant no cc on those.

Some examples of pulls:

#1) In Mech, on the demon pulls as you go up the stairs to each Gatekeeper, there were tinkers, which are the little guys, and don't hit as hard as the big wrecker dudes. There was a set of 2 tinkers and 2 wreckers, and a humanoid pat that was too close to the group not to get, so, I marked and pulled. Mage sheeped the humanoid, kitty druid, pally, and mage killed the first tinker, I tanked the other tinker and 2 wreckers, when the first tinker was dead, kitty druid peeled the other tinker off of me and group killed it, then one wrecker, then the other. I kept the wreckers on me most of the time though, cause they hit to hard. Then we killed the sheeped humanoid.

#2) In Botanica, just before the first boss, you have 3 groups of humanoids that come 3 at a time. All 3 mobs were warrior types, but didn't hit hard enough that the group couldn't kill one and me tank one and Tarrus sheep one. So that is what we always do. Connor in his kitty form held the aggro on the group's first kill target, then they come to mine, then to sheep.

#3) In Mech, there are several 2 or 3 humanoid pulls that consist of a physician(healer), netherbinder(mage), and centurion(warrior). On these pulls, I have Tarrus sheep the healer, dps takes the mage, and I tank the warrior. Casters don't hit hard and dps can kill them fast. They kill the caster, then come and kill mine, then to the sheep.

Just some examples Matt. I listed them cause I know you were wanting some info on how to set up pulls, and I hope this helps:) Feel free to give me a holler if you see me on and we can do some runs together too if you like:)
 
yup very much appreciate it. I didnt realize the above honestly. but im glad thats how its done because the way I was doing it before was not working and needed a new strategy.

so in summary on a 4 or 5 mob pull its,
1) CC the healer if present (or a caster)
2) dps nukes down 2nd caster
3) tanky takes the remaining melee holds them until dps arrives and starts taking them out.
4) then on to the CCed one.

what about sap used as the CC? because that will break early and the tanky is busy with the 2-3 melee.
hey do you always pull? when a CC pulls and the tank needs to intercept them all, its usually a disorganized mess
 
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I always pull. That way I have immediate threat on everything, I don't have to burn my taunt, and the squishies don't have it from pulling. The only time I don't pull is if we have Michael(hunter) in our group, and his Misdirection is up. I don't utilize his Misdirection enough to be honest. It is quite wonderful, so if you have a hunter in the group that has it, use it. It puts all the threat from his first 3 shots onto whoever he targets with it(the tank hopefully). It is very nice to use on bosses to gain threat quickly so that dps can dig in faster. However, I do not have him use it if I am giving him a target to cc/ice trap on a multi mob pull because it is too hard for him to peel it off of me.

Michael has maxed his points in clever traps and trap mastery because we use him for cc quite a bit in our groups, and he does it well. When I give him a target to cc, he keeps that target until we get to it in our kill order. If it breaks, he re-traps it. He has complete control over his target and we do not worry about it unless the trap breaks early, and he calls out that it has. When that happens, he runs it to me, and I pick it up. That doesn't happen much though. Hunters can be used as a very viable cc source this way. The easiest mob for a hunter to put into his trap is a non-caster as it will run right to it. However, I do have Michael put a caster in his trap when needed, and he uses his silencing shot to do so. You have to have a hunter that has the silencing shot talent though, so be aware of that. If they don't, give them a non-caster.

We use sap as our cc when Steve is with us. It works well. When you have sap to utilize as cc, just put it in your kill order. Get the CC Watch mod so that you know when the sap is gonna break, and you can anticipate picking up your sap target. As you are tanking your mob or mobs, and you see that your sap is up, target the sap mob, and start moving towards it, as it will be going for the healer most likely. Just go to it and taunt it and put it in your threat gaining rotation. Everyone still stays with the kill order you are calling out, and you just add the sap in where you want it, depending on what type of mob you have chosen for the sap.

So, an example utilizing sap/ice trap would be, um, let's take one of the the sixs pull in Shadow Lab that is in the room with the second boss. Let's say the combo you have is a shadow priest(high dmg mind flay, must die first or just after the warlock pet or be cc'd), one acolyte(heals), warlock(high casting dmg) and warlock pet(dog this time, and they are demons, so no cc), a cultist(easy to pull into trap), and a deathsworn(easy to pull into trap, but hits hard, and can kill your hunter when re-trapping him if he gets a hit off on him).

Your group make up is a tank, healer, hunter, rogue, and feral druid. I mark the felhunter(dog) as the first kill target cause he dies quick and put the kitty druid on him, with the hunter. I make the shadow priest the second kill target and put the rogue on him and tell him to stun lock him. As soon as the dog is dead, the kitty and hunter switch to shadow priest and kill him quickly. The sap target will be the warlock. The ice trap target will be the cultist. Kill order will be felhunter, shadow priest, acolyte, warlock, deathsworn, and cultist.

I let the hunter know the path I will be taking to line of sight pull my targets to around the corner into the hallway so that they come directly to me. The hunter then knows where to place his trap so that I don't accidentally run the wrong mob into it. Sap goes on, and I pull by line of sight around the corner. Hunter peels his target off of me into his trap that is across the hall from where I am standing with my mobs to be tanked. Rogue immediately goes to the shadow priest and stuns and dps' it. Kitty immediately goes to the felhunter and begins to dps it. Hunter dps' felhunter as soon as his mob is trapped.

I pop bloodrage and do a Demo Shout on my mobs to initially keep them on me and off the healer when they are incoming. As soon as they are to me, I hit the first one with shield slam and revenge if it is up, I then target the next one and get a sunder on, then a T-clap to build more threat and slow their attacks on me; then cycle through them using tab with sunders/shield slams/revenge's, devastate when they reach 5 sunders, keeping T-clap on them and Demo shout when they wear off. I keep shield block up.

Dps moves to my acolyte that I am tanking after the shadow priest is dead. Sap will be incoming probably while acolyte is being killed or just after shadow priest is dead. I see it incoming, target it, move to it, taunt it and add it to my order. Dps group stays on acolyte until it is dead, then on to warlock, then deathsworn, then last is the cultist that has been kept ice trapped.

I have control over all the mobs and am calling out kill order as we go, to keep everyone clear on what is to be killed next. If I loose one and it goes for a dps or healer, they are instructed to run to me, to override their instinct to run for their lives away from me:) If Michael calls out saying his trap has broken early, we run towards each other, I taunt it off of him, and put it in my order. If he is able to re-trap when his trap is available again, he does.

This is just an example, and can be modified to fit your group/style. Nothing is set in stone:)

Alot of this is just running the instances and learning the mobs and the classes and what they can do with their abilities. I have not played all the classes, so I ask questions of the other group members on what they can do, if I am not familiar with their abilities. I get alot of input from the group on the marking until I feel comfortable with an instance. We switch stuff around if it doesn't work well, until we can get something that does. It is all a team effort. I am still a noob warrior and learn stuff every day:)
 
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I have a question about targeting multiple mobs for tanking. Do you use tab targeting? I haven't found it very efficient, but maybe I just need practice. I generally just click target, but I know that is horribly innefficient (not to mention accidentally looting the mob that just dropped if it happens to be my turn :(

so yeah, what do you use for target switching (and how do you not accidently target a cc'd mob you happen to be near)

Thanks Angie, or whoever responds.
 
I think Tinie is referring to Misdirection not Distracting shot though distracting shot can certainly be one of the three shots used (normally I do an aimed shot, multi, and arcane). If I can't do a multi, I'll use a distracting in its place.
 
Baraach said:
I have a question about targeting multiple mobs for tanking. Do you use tab targeting? I haven't found it very efficient, but maybe I just need practice. I generally just click target, but I know that is horribly innefficient (not to mention accidentally looting the mob that just dropped if it happens to be my turn :(

so yeah, what do you use for target switching (and how do you not accidently target a cc'd mob you happen to be near)

Thanks Angie, or whoever responds.
Click to expand...


I do use tab targeting, or I click, depending on how close the mobs are to the cc'd one/s. No it is not very efficient. I have tried some macros that are just supposed to target ones that are within a certain range and sunder them, but I must not have it set up right, cause it doesn't work. I haven't messed around with it again, but will try in the near future and see what I have done wrong.
 
Allanon said:
I think Tinie is referring to Misdirection not Distracting shot though distracting shot can certainly be one of the three shots used (normally I do an aimed shot, multi, and arcane). If I can't do a multi, I'll use a distracting in its place.
Click to expand...


Yes, Misdirection, not Distracting shot. My bad. Thanks for catching that Adam, and it is fixed:)
 
Used these ideas on a instance that was giving us trouble and they worked.
Thanks!
 
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this sucker is gona be key after the patch. sheeped? not anymore...

http://www.thottbot.com/i18854

I might have to spec MS for some honor points

"Insignia of the Alliance/Horde" and "Medallion of the Alliance/Horde" now removes "Immobilizing", "Stun" and "Polymorph" effects and no longer remove "Slowing" effects."
 
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I like to have the health bars over the mobs(ctrl-v if I am not mistaken). I can click the mobs via the health bars, and can usually click a select mob in a mass group of them, works fine on those rock elemental pats in Maraudon. I find with my connection that tab targeting fails to make the cut.

I have a question for Tinie. Do you use a macro to spam the chat with your current target as the next kill target? Seems the only way that I can think of to communicate to your team what you want them to kill next. And what other chat macros do you use to communication info to the team?

Sean
 
in general, the DPS bunch should be focusing on whatever the tank is tanking. The tank shouldn't have to spam what they're attacking next, we should be /assist'ing or F-keying.

Also as a generality, a lot of groups are using raid icons to indicate crowd controlled targets, tank/off-tank, etc.

When mobs are CC'd, then general order to kill is Sapped, slept, trapped, shackled, mind controlled, and sheeped.
 
I have a question for Tinie. Do you use a macro to spam the chat with your current target as the next kill target? Seems the only way that I can think of to communicate to your team what you want them to kill next. And what other chat macros do you use to communication info to the team?
Click to expand...

I mark them with the icons, and call out the kill order/target/icon in teamspeak for the group to be on. I try to keep the same order each time, but sometimes it is not possible. I generally do not want them on what ever I am tanking at first, especially on a multi pull, as I assign targets to be dps'd first while I am holding 2 or more mobs until it is their turn to be targeted and killed by the group.
 
A couple post patch things. Number one I love that trinket, was sheeped and used it, very nice. It also removes stun effects, so waiting to test that out. 5 minute cool down, but honestly it passes quickly. Will get a lot of use out of it.

The second is revenge. It now does very nice damage and I think it costs me 2? rage. anyways I shield block, spam it the entire fight and why not for good aggro at that cost. The question is about improved revenge and the stun. I love the stun on revenge but know that most warriors shy away from it.

I have a 40 percent chance on stunning a mob (most trash mobs which really is 90% of an instance run). That means that for every 10 swings I stun the mob 4 times. Ok in my book this is huge. I swing, stun then the mob just sits there and loses an attack on me, until I hit him again. Even better on casters, how about 4 of 10 swings interrupting casting of all types? I forget the maxium amount of stuns a mob will take in a given time frame, if someone remembers this perhaps they can post it. The argument I am confused about is some warriors are concerned about the lack of rage from the period you are not getting hit.

Recently someone told me that it cuts down on your aggro. But I dont get aggro from a mob by getting hit more, in fact its my job to get hit less. The only way I increase my aggro on a mob is for me to hit them. So it has really no effect on aggro at all. It does however do a significant job at mitigating my incoming damage, interrupts casting and can also be good against runners. So in summary my question is, why dont more warriors go out of their way to acquire improved revenge. I understand the rage argument, sure if I am not getting hit hard I get less rage, but with that argument I might as well tone down my shield block and ac.

Furthermore, rage is really never an issue. With focused rage and the cost of sunder armor 9, shield block 10 and revenge 2, I always have enough to hold mobs and keep my shield up. Wanted some input on why improved revenge is not loved as much as I like it. =) Thanks!
 
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So it has really no effect on aggro at all.
Click to expand...


Matt, rage is generated by both doing damage and receiving damage. Rage drives your threat generating abilities. So, if you decrease your rage generation, you decrease your threat production. See this table for rage generation posted by Kalgan, taken from this post: http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=83678537&pageNo=1&sid=1#16


Here are the current rage generation formulae (note: these are slightly different than the ones which are on the current public test realms).

The notable changes include an update to offhand rage generation (previously it was not being normalized correctly), and an improvement to rage generation from crits (essentially, crits now generate double the rage the hit would have ordinarily caused). The later change should help ensure that certain specs (ie: sword specialization) don't become clearly superior to crit-enhancing specializations like Axe/Polearm.

For Dealing Damage:
Main Hand Normal Hits: Factor=2.5
Main Hand Crits: Factor=5.0
Off Hand Normal Hits: Factor=1.25
Off Hand Crits: Factor=2.5

Rage Conversion Value (note: this number is derived from other values within the game such as a mob's hit points and a warrior's expected damage value against that mob):

Rage Conversion at level 60: 230.6
Rage Conversion at level 70: 274.7

Expansion Rage Gained from dealing damage = ((Damage Dealt) / (Rage Conversion at Your Level) * 7.5 + (Weapon Speed * Factor))/2

Pre-Expansion Rage Gained from dealing damage = (Damage Dealt) / (Rage Conversion at Your Level) * 7.5


For Taking Damage (both pre and post expansion):
Rage Gained = (Damage Taken) / (Rage Conversion at Your Level) * 2.5
Click to expand...


I might as well tone down my shield block and ac
Click to expand...

Shield block is used to push crushing blows off the table. Different mechanics at work here.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Crushing_Blow

You have to balance out mitigation with rage generation.

The Imp Revenge talent is really just a play style choice. It will not work on most bosses, just like shield bash/concussion blow. You just have to decide if you are gonna use it enough to justify not taking some other talent. You also have to look at where you are playing. Are you tanking 10-25 mans where Imp Rev is not going to be useful? Or are you able to use it lots on trash mobs in 5 mans? It it is just a play style. Different prot warriors play with different mobs and therefore need different talent set ups.
 
"You have to balance out mitigation with rage generation."

OK thanks. I guess that about sums it up. Personally I dont like the get hit more to generate more rage arguement, seems opposite of the whole purpose of the tank and I think blizzard addressed this pretty well with focused rage. =)
 
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