Political Activism, Serving the needy, etc. Are we doing enough?

[Woven]

Quote by Woven:
Many Christians also strongly take the position that Judging is wrong period or that we should only judge other believers. (You for one) As well as many positions that are not correct. Many Christians also believe the law of man justifies all behavior. (You for one) (Except of course Christian political activism)

You have claimed that your beliefs are correct and mine are wrong. I clearly think the opposite and thus we are at an impass.

I've claimed and demonstrated.

I thank you for the discussion for my part it has revealed to me that I do not hold to my own beliefs.

That's not nessaccerly a bad thing.. On the issue of judging it's simply not possible to avoid all judging and be conscious. I think that what has been exposed is that in the end we all make judgments. What separates you and I on this issue is that I want to embrace that responsibility rightly and it appears to me you are shying away from it and at best, just not sure on the issue.
Right judging should be embraced, encouraged. Wrong judging should be shunned. It's our responsibility to find out the differences between the two: What judgment God has committed to us and that which He has reserved for Himself.

Since the beginning of this discussion I have found that I judge many people frequently for all sorts of nonsense including how they dress etc.
For that I am thankful to you and I believe this discussion with you will encourage me to be a better Christian.
I hope others have found the discussion useful but I see no fruit in continuing in a discussion where positions are so polarised and set in stone. I said earlier that this discussion was somewhat futile as we essentially believed the same things at the core.

Mm..I'm not sure we do believe in all the same core Biblical teachings. As Christians we certainly do share some.
But I do thank you for pointing out with examples from your past that sometimes our judging is not Godly at all, but hypocritical and an attempt to tear another apart unjustly out of self-righteousness.
I'm sure at times I've probably been guilty of this myself.

Danny, I respect what you have had to say here and I hope that you remain strong in your will to spread the good news to others and I only wish you the best in those endevours. Should you find that some of your positions do not work I only ask that you return to this discussion, as I most certainly will when my efforts meet with failure, to continue to ensure that we are most effectively reaching the most amount of people.

As long as my tactics are justifiable (Godly) I can't be a failure. The rest is up to the Holy Spirit. Even if I'm hated, that is not evidence that I have failed. In fact..being liked might be evidence that I have failed.
We will not win everyone..We will win some, others will hate us. But if our goal is to be faithful to God, that is our success. What we don't want is the following.. "For they loved the praise of men more than God"
The prophets, disciples, Jesus etc did not win everyone over.

To everyone else to paraphrase Leo Tolstoy "The orthodox believe that they along hold the truth of the scriptures and believe anyone whose beliefs do not meet theirs are not real believers....the same position is held by the Catholics and the Protestants ". Let us never forget that there are lots of different Christians who hold views that will not match ours let us not forget that they are never-the-less the Children of God whose position deserves respect and consideration. In this thread are two very different opinions expanded in detail. I hope that you find the discussion useful. I am sure that the truth of it lies somewhere in the middle but use what resonates with you leave what doesn't.

I'm not a believer who thinks that because other denominations have a different soteriological, eschatological, Christian world view then I do, that those believers are not saved.
I also know that the fundamental teachings of the Bible are not ambiguous and it's not a question of, "Well..we really can't know any biblical truth therefore we can't evaluate true Christianity".
Anyone can say "I'm a Christian". Some people think just being born in America makes you "Christian". Clearly we have enough Biblical clarity to know this is not so.

Quote by Woven:
Wow..this is just plan sad.. Sure..if the slave masters want to own blacks and it's "In the confines" of the law..who are we to demand..anything of them..? If the nazi's want to slaughter Jews within the confines of the law..who are we to demand..that they live God's way?
And if the law allows mother's to kill their own kids and same sex marriages..well now..who are we to say it's wrong..

Man made laws cannot justify immoral behavior or make a wrong right, they simply give permission.
Authority flows downhill, from God to man. Not uphill from man to God.

response:

On the basis of this quote and to see my arguemnt in a single simple address I think it is important for me to clarify my position. My position has two parts:

You had said..."We need to respect what other's do as long as the law condones it" (I'm paraphrasing, summing up)
I hope you really do not believe this.

1. I have not said that as christians we should lie down as meek as a mouse and never say anything. I am mainly concerned about the idea of power relationships. What i am trying to say is; say what you like, campaign for the rights of others, but do it from a position of equal. I am advocating a peer to peer position of power when holding others accountable. Woven I think you are holding a Parent to child type relationship in that I read your ideas of judgment to suggest that Christians are in a position of power over the non-christian and thus has the right to tell them what to do. I for one disagree with this power relationship when it is between to rational adults. This also does not discount the fact that we will hold other power relationship where we will have the right to tell people what to do as Woven has said good parents tell their children what to do. What I am saying is we need to be careful to respect the boundries of those power relationships i.e when that Child has become an adult the power relationship should change where the parent begins to treat the child as an adult. Likewise, I am saying that when two people, one Christian and one non-chrisitian, who are both rational adults are relating to each other it must be done on the base of equals.

Not only can we, we should at times tell others what to do and what to think. The one thing that should remain consistent in a parent child relationship as the child becomes an adult is love. The manifestation changes somewhat, but the quality remains the same. When we tell people truth, what is right, we are not contradicting, or should not be, any foundational truths God has already revealed to them, it just needs to be done from a position of strength, wisdom, knowledge and humility (No, the two do not contradict one another, humility is strength) (self control) right motives. Not, "I condemn you to hell for disagreeing with me!" We are right to reinforce the moral truths God has already revealed in them. We are not right to help them suppress that. As believers we need to find out what God's position is on a healthy life so that we have knowledge, wisdom to share with a broken world. Christians and unbelievers are not equal. If so, we have nothing to offer them that's any better than what they already have. If we are not in a better eternal state, why try and persuade them they are in a lesser one?

2. The second part of my argument is related to efficacy. Just because we can do something does not mean we should. I think as Christians we need to learn the age old adage of "Choose the hills you die on". I feel Christians try and die on every hill and thus have lost much respect in the eyes of the community. I believe that had we focused more on the rights of the oppressed rather than the ills of homosexuality we would have maintained much more respect and had greater influence than we do now.

We are responsible to find out what is right and to do it. I will agree that had we focused on "rights" what they are, where they come from, and not given up on them there would be less misery in general. Compromising on healthy ideas has forfeited us our influence and credibility when we say, "We love our neighbors". The more we compromise on what people in general already know is right, the less moral credibility we have.. It's not homosexuality we are against now, it's homosexual marriage. Our Christians leaders (not mine), many of them are no longer apposed to it as being unhealthy in general. They are just apposed to their marriage. Well, if homosexuality is not wrong, why appose homosexual marriage? We are so weak..and insecure...sacrificing the well being of others for their immediate approval of us.. We expose ourselves as foolish..and uncaring. And we undermine the moral clarity of God..People who engage in destructive behavior know when others do not care about them.. It's intuitive because they are already mistreating themselves and recognize it when it's done to them by others.

Finally, I wanted to say I am sorry to Danny took my previous post to suggest you were simply tearing snippets out of the bible to support your views without any reference to the surrounding passages. I have tried not to become emotionally involved and to that end i have failed. This was not my intention. While I do feel that you have not accounted for the historical and occasional context of the scriptures you use, you have done nothing but show the utmost respect for the bible and I do not want anything i have said to suggest you have not.

You keep saying I have not accounted for the context of verses I used, but provide no evidence.
Sometimes context is the verse, paragraph, chapter, book in the bible and other times it's the entire Bible..(the parts written in us and in ink)
For example Acts 4:5 on socialism is a passage that spans the eschatology of large sections of the Bible..ot and nt. Jacobs trouble and Israel's kingdom showing that under certain circumstances certain types of socialism is fine. I'm an acts 9 dispensationalist...we are all about context and examining the things that differ.., rightly dividing between Israel and the body of Christ.. understand the changes, plot twists, and why.
While the Bible is all written for us, it's not all written to us.. Something's were for certain people, groups and certain nations for a certain time and a certain reason, other things are perpetual.

I will close with the obvious, I'm not infallible..my desire is that believers read the entire Bible for themselves..so they can be effective in all aspects of life. (political not excluded)
The Bible should be the foundation of how we evaluate the extended world views, ideas of others (Believers and non-believers) How do we know our Pastor, Church etc is telling us the more extended truth if we don't know it first? How do we "test" the spirits? There is only one mediator between man and God and it's not the local church or the local pastor or the local Christian school (All have their place) It's Christ. And as the Bible declares, Jesus is the word of God made flesh (John 3) and His name in revelations is "The Word of God"..

Take care,

Danny

 

[Woven]

Tom, good judgment, judging flows from love. To show someone the love of Christ is to oppose the things that harm them and warn, encurage them to turn away from them. Especially if they are attempting to justify them to you. But I've already posted a lot on this subject. "Love thy neighbor". This is a fundemental teaching ..and should be apperant..though I've listed many verses I'm not interested in repeating them, but would encurage you to read the entire Bible.

Homosexuality.

It is not ungodly for the Gov athorities to outlaw destructive sexual behaviour. Sex with animals is illegal, sex with children is illegal etc etc. These laws reflect the criminal aspect of the mosiac law. Gov should do it's best to reflect Godly criminal law, not make up their own. (but only if absolute right and wrong exist) To figure out where the threshold is: what sins are crimes, we need to study the Bible, rightly dividing the different tiers of the law. (Criminal code, symbolic code) Which teirs have been fullfilled in Christ and which are eternal? "Thou shalt not murder" is still in effect it is illegal. "Thou shalt not steal" etc. Homosexuality is, according to God, illegal, just as beastiality is illegal. It's eternal and part of the criminal code of the Bible. Thinking about stealing my neighbors car, because I'm envious of him is a sin, comitting the act is a crime. Thinking about homosexual sex is a sin, engaging in it, is illegal, in God's criminal code.

The Gov has the athority to punish me rightly for theft and should to discurage the destructive behaviour, reaffirming it's love and value of human beings. And as Paul says in Romans 13 God wants the Gov athorities (His ministers) to punish evil "Doers". And I'm pretty sure Paul is refering to the criminal code in the mosaic law as the standard. The Gov already outlaws various behaviour, how do we know it's just? What is the critera for outlawing anything? If we can't even judge, how can we outlaw anything? The coming Gov that will be upon Christ's shoulders will not legalize what God has outlawed.

Homosexual marrage is only wrong if Homosexuality is wrong. And it's only a crime if homosexuality is a crime. If homosexuality is not wrong, then of course Christians should support their marriage. I hear re-publicans and some Christians saying I don't have an issue with homosexuality, but I'm against homosexual marriage, thou I support civil unions.. And we wonder why we are mocked, dispised and laughed at? If it is wrong, we should not support the behaviour in the first place. The Gov is biblicaly justified in outlawing the behaviour. It's not immoral for the Gov to discurage this destructive behaviour. It was criminal for 3500 years. And since that legal boundry has been knocked down, we have more misery from unhealthy sexual behaviours. Liberlaising the sexual laws of a society has it's consequences. Even if both parties agree to destructive, unhealthy sexual behaviour it's still what it is. And it doesn't just effect the immediate parties. Every nation must have a criminal justice system and the Bible outlines one. And while it's possible to mis interpret God's, it's not possible for us to improve on it.

These moral boundries revealed and legal discuragments are for our protection, God gave them to us not because of the absence of love, but because He is love and they reaffirm the value of human life. "I care about you so I'm going to advocate against the things that harm you while giving you a measure of freedom and responsabilies"

Abortion.

All "abortion" is wrong. The intentional, malicious shedding of innocent blood. If either the mother's life or childs life is going to be lost as a result of a Tubal, Ectopit pregnancy the Dr's motive is not to murder either of his patients. He would like to save both, but we don't really have the knowledge, ability to do both at this time. The baby is going to die, he can't save it. So he goes in wanting, wishing to save the baby, but he can't. He delivers the baby and as a result the baby dies. That's not murder.

(Rape and insest exceptions) - You don't kill a child because his father is a criminal. That doesn't justify the shedding of innocent blood. Punish the criminal, not his child. Love the mother and His child. I don't encurage mothers to become the executioner of their own children, because their father was was a criminal. I encurage our Gov as good ministers of God to "Execut terror, wrath and veangence" on the rapist. (Romans 13)

And by the way.. We have homosexual acquaintances. My wife's boss is homosexual and he knows Renee is not ok with it, yet or rather because of this, he holds her in high regard..imagine that.. It's because he knows she does not hate him, as his liberal "friends" do who encourage him on..

Take care,
Danny

 

[Neirai the Forgiven]

I'm going to exercise my ability to judge and say that this thread has gone from being useful to useless. The last four posts have not been used to say anything constructive at all.

If I had moderation powers, I'd be locking this. Rather, I'm going to humbly request that everyone involved look very carefully at what they have said in the last four posts, and think it over.

 

[Wend]

I've considered closing the thread...in fact for a brief while I did close it, however I will leave it open as long as we can bring it back on track and not start personal "flame wars". I did choose to remove the four referred to replies as I, too, exercised my judgment to decide that we didn't all need to read them Please keep posts of this nature civil and non-accusatory. (Titus 3:2 -- to slander no one, to be peaceable and considerate, and to show true humility toward all men.)

Thul...I can understand your offense, but for the sake of the others participating in this discussion I would ask that perhaps you ignore this thread.

Danny...I am a person who enjoys debate (probably why I'm not closing the thread) but I would ask that you respect that others may not have the same feelings towards debate and respect their personal boundaries.

I'd love to see this continue as a debate (sharing of opinions backed up by scripture as a means of clarification, edification, effecting change) but not as an argument. (Titus 3:9 -- But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless.)

 

[Woven]

I've considered closing the thread...in fact for a brief while I did close it, however I will leave it open as long as we can bring it back on track and not start personal "flame wars". I did choose to remove the four referred to replies as I, too, exercised my judgment to decide that we didn't all need to read them Please keep posts of this nature civil and non-accusatory. (Titus 3:2 -- to slander no one, to be peaceable and considerate, and to show true humility toward all men.)

I'd love to see this continue as a debate (sharing of opinions backed up by scripture as a means of clarification, edification, effecting change) but not as an argument. (Titus 3:9 -- But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless.)

Wend, it looks like I missed your edit. Your original post was slightly different and that's the one I responded to initially.
That's the only reason I'm modifying my original response, my last post on the topic. The discussion was pretty much over anyways.
I did not "slander" Mike nor did I make "foolish" arguments about the law. Not all discussions, or even arguing about the law are foolish.
I did not misrepresent Mikes views. Not only that, I told him the obvious, that I am not infallible and perhaps I misunderstood him. Though I may have been a bit harsh on him at the end and probably should have used more wisdom and restraint and not responded back, allowing his words to speak for themsleves.

The 2 verses you gave are in part are rule of thumb and do not contradict Paul withstanding peter to his face, because he was to be blamed over some hypocrisy. As well as other verses. (So many of them) As Paul himself argued and accused some inside and outside the church and warned Timothy to do the same. He did it rightly. (Not wrongly as Satan does) I do appreciate your desire for peace and agree with you in some of what you have said. We are not going to agree on some things, but hopefully the things that unite us are stronger then our differences.

John, I don't agree with you that my response to his attitude was useless or not constructive. Perhaps some think your "Abhorring" of certain Christian activism is useless or not very constructive or even a bit harsh, but that doesn't mean it's not justified. I don't agree with some of that post you wrote in the GC thread, but wouldn't run for the delete button because of it.

I think it's right that we abhor certain Christian world views. It doesn't mean we hate other believers. I abhor the "Judge not" hypocrisy. And while I abhor the Christian worldview that sees Satan in every molecule. I also abhor the Christian world view that condemns reasonable, Godly activism.
Take care,

Danny