POLL! About 1.8 and our map!

[Wolfeman]

First, from what I understand, Grey and Cata have talked extensively on this. In addition, I included them in the email and only Grey and you responded. Grey's issue was addressed and changes were made based on that.

As I stated. We've heard very little from anyone in charge. Almost all the questions have remained unanswered and that has led to endless "decisions" about how things should or are going to be. Grey and Cata talking things over extensively is great but it would be nice if some of that got communicated to the rest of us. Even if it were just an acknowledgement of the questions that have been raised and to tell us the issues is being discussed.

As far as Cata saying what Abea said she was going to have him say ... huh?? I sat with Cata for a long time and gleaned his ideas from him. If he is saying something different than what he and someone else has talked about, then that is on him completely. In fact, I will tell you that I don't agree with everything that is being said. But I am trying to respect his position and allow this to be as he and grey decide it will be.

You sent me (and others) a private message with decisions about where we were going with the 1.8 update asking for corrections or updates. You stated you wanted to make sure he (Cata) got everything correct but that he was going to make the post. I raised several issues which were never addressed. You stated in a follow up to that first message that he would have to address those issues with you translating. Everything I've heard from Cata so far has come thru you first.

I'm just asking for some clear information from those who make the decisions. No matter who that information has to come thru.

 

[Malohaut]

I haven't been saying much because for the most part, i'm pretty okay with what's decided. As long as I can have a place for my home and a mine underneath, and as long as we can be together as a community, yet far enough apart to give each other room, that's cool with me.

At first, I was reluctant about having a deletable world, but then I got to thinking. I kind of like the Stargate style, go in, explore, spend some time, make some friends, find new resources, then visit the next world. Kind of cool.

Last, I knew that we had an option to move a building, and I definately want my 3 story house moved (it's around x/y/z 70/70/189), but I didn't know landmarks had a potential for being moved. I tell you what. If you are truly interested in moving my Ark over, I'll finish building it once you do.

In any case, 1.8 is almost here ... officially. How exciting!

 

[ProSimm]

A new pre release has been published which now has changes like 3 STRONGHOLDS

 

[Abea]

Ok Wolf - first, I found out that Cata never got the email, cause it only came to me. I thought he did get it so I thought he would answer your questions. Guess that was a mix up. So when "we" developed the communication Cata just posted on the 1.8 Migration Plan, we tried to address those questions.

Do we want to spawn a Permanent spawn world before 1.9 comes out? This wasn't answered because it really is unanswerable at the moment. Part of that is because estimating the out put of 1.9 is very difficult. In theory if 1.8 comes out this coming week sometime, and then it takes 2-3 weeks for Essentials and Lockette gets updated, then Gamma is up for a week, we will be very close to when 1.9 should be coming out. So the decision would have to be made then.

To my knowledge, swamps are not part of 1.8 yet. They should be part of 1.9. What if someone wants to claim a swamp? - WAS NOT ANSWERED other than with a *shrug* because of the above mentioned situation.

What if someone wants to claim an occupied village instead of an empty one? ANSWERED with either: Ravene, NPC Villiage, etc are all claimable property, first come first serve. But not the stronghold, it is public property. (Builder world) or Be prepared to defend any claims you make in the adventure world. You can not just move into a claimed area, but you can PVP to take it over. (Adventure world)

Have we addressed the rules on griefing by mobs since it's been decided to not use a safe world? Especially with endermen moving blocks around. ANSWERED with: If a mob griefs your property, it's an act of nature and not covered by admins, it will just be a loss. Sorry.

How do we handle the permanent world once it's mined out? NOT ANSWERED: That will be something to address when we get there I guess. I think with all the discussions going on, this is one that can rest until then.

What are the rules for claiming underground spaces? Especially if they move outside of a marked plot. ANSWERED with: Any claimed area will include all the ground above and below it. Do your best when mining to not mine under someone else's claimed area or get permission before hand.

I know you asked some other questions, but Cata hasn't given any answers on that. Maybe he will talk to Grey about it and then respond?

I'm just forming the words to communicate clearly because Cata has a way of thinking you know what he is thinking when he write. And then there are lots of holes left because you really don't. I am using this as a teaching experience (especially since he is homeschooled).

I'm not sure why Grey or even Gator are so silent. Maybe they agree with what is being written? Maybe they totally disagree? Or maybe they are allowing Cata to be the Chapter Leader and communicate things?

However, Grey did comment on claiming a stronghold:

toj-Grey
Quote:
I wouldn't see the point in claiming a stronghold, it is more appealing to me to go all doctor Jones on it instead.

Gator chimed in on the size of the worlds, and again on the "safety" and the mining issue

Gator
Quote:
spawn-monsters=true
Then I remembered that Multiverse can change this value per world it also allows skylands so use Multiverse over Worldmanager.

Also to solve the problem Abea is talking about I've come up with a plan.

Residence Can set up invisible "cubes" that can disable certain things like fire, monsters, animals, PvP, water, lava, fall damage and damage, to name a few.
My plan is to make Public Quarries which should look like this anyone standing within the bedrock square is safe from PvP, so if you stand on the dirt within the square you're safe, the safe zone can go down to the very bottom of the map.
The Public Quarries are meant to be depleted so they will run out, So either early bird gets the worm or you'll have to mine with PvP on.
I'm thinking a maximum of 3 large quarries through out the map.

 

[Catakou]

1. How large of an area can I claim in the Spawn World? How many areas can I claim?

This will be the same as it has always been.

2. We had discussed laying out plots around spawn with plots getting larger as you go further out from spawn. We had also discussed laying out minecart tracks and whatnot. What are the plans for these features?

Haven't had a chance to talk to Grey about this yet. We'll get back to you after we do.

3. If I'm getting chased by a swarm of creepers and decided to head into your land and it gets blown up, Is that still an act of nature?

Why do the rules have to be different then they were before? If it's major damage, then out of kindness, we will help rebuild what we can. But we can't be running around taking care of everyone's damage all the time. If you are being chased by a swarm of creepers don't run to someone elses land. If you choose to do that, then YOU create the damage, YOU fix it. It's not an act of nature, it's an act of your choice.

4. Ravines, mineshafts and NPC villages are limited items, probably only one each (or less) in an area 1500x1500. Why are they claimable but not the stronghold I wanted to claim? Why don't we make all special areas public areas and not claimable?

Grey commented on the strongholds and his opinion was that they not be claimable. Soka addressed the reasons they shouldn't be claimable. So, let's do this. ANYTHING in the adventure world is claimable. However, you must be prepared to defend it. If you want to claim a stronghold there, then so be it. Grey and I will meet to discuss the rules for PVPing/Dueling for property and will post those later. Sorry I don't have answers, these are not things Grey and I talked about yet.

5. I was previously told I could move an area 75x10 (this included an area 6 deep which I've already moved because it was decided we couldn't move underground areas). Can I still move my flag and cross or do I need to take it apart? EABREK also asked: Can I have two areas moved that when put together equal only around 25x25. MALOHAUT commented: I definately want my 3 story house moved (it's around x/y/z 70/70/189

Yes, you can move your flag and cross, they are landmarks. I couldn't remember what the number was that Gator said could be moved. So let me talk to Gator about how he came up with the numbers. The number might change. I picked 50x50 because I thought it would give people a nice chunk to move but wasn't too big. 10 seems a little small. We can talk about things if we have areas like yours Eabrek and Malohaut.

6. If I claim an area in Adventure world and then never get online while others are online does that mean no one can take my area because I'm never on when people can PvP me for it?
Grey and I will talk about the PVP rules and post them later.

7. Since we are spawning Adventure world (with no/limited rules-a dangerous place) before we spawn the home world (which has rules to make it safe) is there a plan to make adventure world safe until we can move our stuff to Spawn world? Or are we just on our own until the safe world is spawned?

Adventure world is an unsafe world, period. Because people voted for a new world, that is what we are doing. But that is with the understanding that the plugs in we need to protect people's stuff is unavailable. So, basically, everyone is on their own until the safe world is spawned. Hopefully adventure world will not be a totally unkind place to be. Use some kindness and keep it fun. We shouldn't be trying to frustrate other players, or being annoying, or frustrating. Do we really need rules to force everyone on a Christian server to be kind?

 

[Wolfeman]

Alright, after a discussion earlier today with my wife about how I should be nicer to our church college students, prodding by the Holy Spirit and a few minutes rereading this thread, I must apologize.

I have come off more gruff, abusive and argumentative than was my intent. I'm sorry.

I'm 41 years old. I was in the Army for 11 years (from age 20-31) before I was medially discharged. It may have been the structure of the Army that caused me to be so OCDish about things or it may be I thrived because I'm so OCDish. I like (and am pretty used to) things to be planned, replanned, over planned and then replanned again. I expect things to be laid out clearly well in advance and then wait for it to happen. When I got out I was an E-6 with 8 soldiers under me. I was responsible for everything they did, thought and learned. This included training them to take my job so that when they got promoted, they were ready for it and had to do very little on the job learning.

Anyone who has visited my valley or even my castle in beta will attest I like things very organized and laid out dress right dress. I expect others to be as organized as I am.

That is not to say those who are not as I am or expect others to be are wrong. They are just different. And God has made us all different for a reason. However, it doesn't stop me from getting crazy when things change or people are vague etc.

Originally, the plan was to have a created spawn world that would never need to be respawned, have a community setup/feeling and would be safe for everyone. People would no longer complain about having to move to a new world everytime a new update came out. We would all be closer together with transportation already provided so we would be more like a community and less like individuals all building in the same server. And it would be safe so we wouldn't have the issues from people who fail to adequately light their properties causing mobs to spawn and cause damage. The adventure world would change regularly to allow access to new features found in updates and provided mining and other resources. This setup was explained in a town(safe area)/outside town(unsafe area) type setup.

Suddenly it changed and there was talk about using a seed world for the spawn world with no central setup. This added a whole host of other issues including exhausting mines, claiming terrain/map features, no real difference between the spawn/adventure world, repeated recreating of spawn world to keep up with update changes, spawn world griefing etc.

The sudden change of plans, the problems created by the change and the lack of communication/answers tweaked every pet peeve I have. I have no excuse but I went crazy and took my frustration out on everyone here.

I'm sorry for my lack of compassion, understanding and general irritating attitude.

However, on a side note, with all the changes made, do we need two worlds?

 

[Soka7]

Wolf, I respect that as a man you can take responsibility for your actions, which is something many men fail to do. I don't have a problem with your desire for things to be well organized and didn't take your posts as offensive or with lack of compassion, ^^; but I suppose this apology isn't directed toward me and my lack of a leadership role. xD Again, if anyone wants to use my map that I'm building, feel free too. As I stated at the start, I'm going to build it whether it is used or not. Whatever plans the leadership has, I'll go along with it, I just like building and having the freedom to create where others can appreciate the inspiration and desire to create that God has laid in each one of our hearts as individuals. We all have something we can bring to the server, and perhaps your contribution, Wolf, could be your organization and the questions you feel the need to ask to better the skills of the leadership and better define the direction the server is going as a whole.

 

[Abea]

I'm sorry for my lack of compassion, understanding and general irritating attitude.

However, on a side note, with all the changes made, do we need two worlds?

HUH? Not a problem Wolf. If you could hear me here at home, you'd realize this is a big deal. My need for organization is what has prompted me to try and clear up some of the communication issues. So I'm kind of right there with you.

But I HIGHLY respect your post. Wow, what an example you have been to those young men here on the forums. Don't really see a need to apologize, however, you've truly laid out an example of a walk I am grateful for my son's to be able to see. Not something they have had a lot of in their life, unfortunately. So thank you.

It seems to me that every answer creates 10 new questions. And a difficult migration, but I'm sure it will all be fine in the end. (What will we do after 1.9 )

And I might be wrong, but I thought the two worlds were your idea? lol Now I'm really confused. So when you referenced the two worlds, you meant for them to all be one world? So they were supposed to be two AREAS in one WORLD?

You da man Wolfeman, you da man!

 

[Soka7]

And I might be wrong, but I thought the two worlds were your idea? lol Now I'm really confused. So when you referenced the two worlds, you meant for them to all be one world? So they were supposed to be two AREAS in one WORLD?

My suggestion at this point

1. Spawn a new world right now. Put a central spawn (I loved Gerbils church). Establish an area around the central spawn of no build. Then spawn roads and rails out from the central spawn. Establish spots for people to claim. Smaller near the spawn (32x32) and larger as you get farther out(64x64 then 96x96 ect). People can claim an area based upon how much space they need and how close to the spawn they want to be. As people come and go these parcels can be cleaned up and reissued.

2. Spawn a new adventure world every 30 days and delete the old. This will allow us to keep the world small yet keep it new for exploration. Based upon how much can be explored in 30 days we can expand or if necessary contract the spawn world.

3. Allow people to carry things out of the adventure world into the permanent spawn but not from the permanent spawn into the adventure world. Also allow people to carry things from the current world to the new world with the permanent spawn (and then delete the current world after a set amount of time). This will allow collecting things for building in the permanent spawn world (as well as items already collected) but will keep the adventuring and leveling "fair".

4. In the adventure world people can build whatever they want with the knowledge that at the end of each month the whole world will be eaten and nothing will be saved.

5. Plugins will be kept fairly simple. They cause problems more often than not. I like lockette and iconomy (it makes trading and getting things you need easier). Other than that I like only the admin plugins we need to keep order.

6. Adventure worlds are lawless places. PvP, griefing, ect. Spawn world is where the law is (no lava plugin).

He suggested it, yes, but as two separate worlds... it was obvious at first that the building map needed to be easy to move around in and organized to some extent so that it could be a permanent world. In other words... when it was decided to use a random seed instead of a created world, the point in having 2 worlds was flung out the window. Using a random seed, if we want the new features in the building world, we'll have to get a new building world for 1.9... and then another new one for 1.10 or Minecraft 1.0, whichever comes first... And one for every update afterward... Hmm... I'm not quite sure what happened to the idea of a created world...

Edit: Ah, found it... guess who had the idea to use a random seed?

Seems simple to me.


1) Create a new map as soon as 1.8 comes out. This will be the adventure "world." Find a seed ya all like and go with it or just let it be random, whatever, don't make it complicated.
2) After Buckit is updated, generate a new map for the building "world". This world will now be where spawn is. Use a seed you all like, or again, let it be random, don't make it complicated.
3) A large area around spawn is protected to prevent building right on top of it.
4) Admins build a way to travel to distant parts of the map to encourage people to spread out. Using the nether is fine.
5) Open the world to everyone. Move over a specified amount of area for those players that want things moved. Whatever they can fit into that area, they can take. Exceptions to that amount of area would be made for LANDMARKS such as the ark, Herod's temple, the synagog (can't remember the name of it), cathedral, etc.

Game on ...

Adventure World Map rules would be:
1) Anything goes ...
2) Anything built in this map will not be preserved or protected.
3) Map is regenerated and everything is lost after XX days.

Building World Map rules would be those listed on the website.

That doesn't seem so complicated to me? What are the technical issues that this would create?

And it seems your main concern was PVP in the adventure world... and then you brought up later that you might want to build in a ravine or next to a river/swamp/NPC Village... To which was replied...

Just recently we had a player banned because they built too close to another player. Creepers caused a lot of damage to the established players area and they misunderstood and claimed griefing. It was cleared up and they were unbanned but mob damage causes a lot of grief.

On Beta, we had players who built right next to each other near spawn and then would fight over the mines below them with the players next to them. I even had a problem with 2 players in beta who showed up in the mines under my castle even tho I started way out in the middle of nowhere. Prosimm built under my valley in the current world (we discussed it and it was ok). Mining causes a lot of problems. And if the spawn world is permanent, what do you do when it's all mined out?

A completely safe world with no mining would solve those issues. The discussion before you got here seemed to indicate that no one really had a problem with the way it was set up. I understand you're issues and I see you're point so how do you suggest we solve the issues of mob griefing, mine ownership and mine depletion?

And then after this Wolf made some other good points that suggest we use a created spawn world rather than one generated by a seed. Not many of these issues were addressed, and only in the past 2 pages of this thread has the idea of using a seed world taken hold.

My suggestion:
Well... I can make this quick and easy... We keep the adventure world until the next minecraft update and then trash it and start a new adventure world, if there's something you want moved from the adventure world, we can move it. We could use a map type everyone agrees on (Poll it?), but obviously a created world so in the future we don't need to get a completely new world because of an update (People are always going to want the latest stuff in the world, so a 1.8 world when 1.9 comes out isn't going to do. We'll have to go through this all over again at least twice before Minecraft 1.0.) What do you guys think?

 

[Abea]

The original reason for this entire thread was to find out what people wanted to do. And by a vote of 11 to 6 the poll showed people wanted a "New map. When 1.8 is released". That poll was created with the assumption of a normal building environment, spawn world, etc as it has always been. The "Adventure world" is the new concept, not the building world. That was the concept I was going with.

Again, I don't care if we use a seed or a created world, as long as it is created using the new landscape features in 1.8/9. Yes, 1.8 brings about a whole new way to play. But it also brings about several new landscaping features as well as lighting features, and a biome changes. Things that a building world would probably like to use.

Look, I'll go with whatever. Maybe all this should have been put to a vote in the first place? Idk. I don't even care if anything I have is moved in the first place. I've never had a problem with it. But others do.

Bottom line, here's what the new concepts are compared to previous updates.

1) Moving stuff from the old map to a new map. (Something I'm guessing lots of people wanted and that is why it's being done?)

2) Adventure world where there are no real rules. (Suggested by Wolfeman)

3) A systematically laid out spawn area. (Suggested by Wolfeman)

4) A created building world using skylands (Suggested by Gator)

I guess when I was throwing in my two cents, it was from the standpoint of how things have always worked, and then incorporating in the new suggestions. Not the other way around. Seems to me that moving stuff from the old map is the major problem here, everything else could be done no matter what.

You know ProSimm suggested to me in private chat (Pro if I get this wrong, please correct it) an squared area that could be moved from map to map. Everything outside of that map could be regenerated from map to map and that area moved to the new map. Its not my suggestion so maybe he can explain it better. Maybe doing that would solve some of the issues here.

As for me, I dont really care what is done. If I have to, I'll just build any big stuff in my own single player world. I'm never one to build something huge (other than Herods temple). My areas are always left pretty natural with a very small house. I'm not going to fight someone to keep it, I'll just go build somewhere else. Odds are, I won't be challenged for my area because I usually don't have stuff of value. And if someone wants to PVP me, well, I'll just log off. That's what I do when a skelly wants to fight with me. Then, I can keep all my stuff.

Just curious, why isn't anyone else sounding off about this anyway? What do you all think?

 

[Soka7]

Ok ok, I talked to my mom (Abea) for a while about this and explained some stuff to her that she didn't know and wanted me to post that when she said "seed" she was just thinking that a seed made a world, buildings and all, when actually a seed gives you just the raw terrain and not all the stuff players add into it (like if we were to put the same seed as gamma, we'd get the same terrain but none of the buildings.)

Second, I'd like to explain the downsides of using a player-made/created world rather than a seed world...

1. No new terrain features, like ravines, rivers, swamps, or NPC Vilages.

2. No ores to mine or caves to explore.

These are the two main issues with a created world. However, these features can be mimicked in the same way that buildings can be moved from one world to another. Although a NPC village/rivers/swamps/ravines/strongholds/libraries won't be randomly found, we can put them into a created world from an adventure world just like moving a building. Depending on what form of created building world we would decide to use, should we decide to use a created world, we may not be able to transfer entire rivers or ravines obviously. However, we can mimic them with player-made terrain by carving holes in the ground and filling it with water or making trenches and placing iron and gold ores in them.

Also, in the same way that the world itself could be created, we can create ore mines for players to dig in, literally sandboxes set aside to find minerals and ores they might want to find (like Gator's idea) separate from the building areas. For instance, floating ores in the sky like glowstone in the nether, or perhaps a bedrock bucket filled with a chunk of ores and minerals that can be refilled with new ores after a period of time. We could also designate the adventure world as the world we should mine in, which gives us more reason to explore the adventure world. There are several different ways to address this issue and not run out of things to mine.

I want to clarify now that a player-created world would not have an issue with new features. For instance, Beta was always raining because it's terrain was generated before the weather feature, but with a player created world we wouldn't have that issue because the terrain would be the same as someone moving a house from beta to gamma. The player made house isn't the issue, it's the generated terrain around it that made it rain. Also, the new lighting system and the new blocks will all be available in a player created world, such as brick stairs and iron bars, as well as Endermen and the new animal items and AI and combat. The only things that you would not get in any new update are the two things stated before.

 

[Catakou]

My suggestion:
Well... I can make this quick and easy... We keep the adventure world until the next minecraft update and then trash it and start a new adventure world, if there's something you want moved from the adventure world, we can move it. We could use a map type everyone agrees on (Poll it?), but obviously a created world so in the future we don't need to get a completely new world because of an update (People are always going to want the latest stuff in the world, so a 1.8 world when 1.9 comes out isn't going to do. We'll have to go through this all over again at least twice before Minecraft 1.0.) What do you guys think?

I will talk too grey when he has time about what is going too happen. I don't go off and tell everyone whats GOING too happen without talking too someone who has been at this longer then I have. So ill get back too everyone when I know whats going on.