Soldier/Demo Update

[Whon]

This spells murder for engies... Since they put this in for soldiers they need to give engies a sentry that does less damage, but can take out projectiles out of the air, with a percentage of error to make it not be able to kill everything in sight.

 

[Omega Amen]

After the War... I might give Soldier another try if I get the Direct Hit. There is something about his current rocket launcher that I disliked greatly, but I could never put my finger on exactly why.

 

[Glitch]

the soldiers should be good. they fixed the exact thing that i hate while using the soldier.
although... since the soldier is still super slow, i think i will still get frustrated while playing him.

 

[vibrokatana]

the soldiers should be good. they fixed the exact thing that i hate while using the soldier.
although... since the soldier is still super slow, i think i will still get frustrated while playing him.

Soldier also has a health boost, so it evens out. Once you figure out how to rocket jump (not just up) things become much, much easier.

I tend to take on a suicidal approach with soldier, it is fun to jump into a pack of enemies and scatter them.

 

[The Mighty Gerbil]

This spells murder for engies... Since they put this in for soldiers they need to give engies a sentry that does less damage, but can take out projectiles out of the air, with a percentage of error to make it not be able to kill everything in sight.

The direct hit is probably meant for it. The soldiers have an achievement for it too...

Guns of the Navar0wned
Kill 5 Engineer sentries while you are standing outside of their range.

The New weapon and achievement announcements are out...

The Scottish Resistance
The Equalizer
The Buff Banner

Looks good as far as ideas. Soldiers have been issued pickaxes in war so I guess it works. The new sticky launcher looks set to add another layer of complexity to Demos. I'll refrain from guessing whether something is overpowered until the release although Valve has said The Equalizer is a direct upgrade to the shovel...

At the moment the Equalizer is a flat upgrade to the shovel. Down the road we might do some balance adjustment to make the shovel a more competitive choice.

Based on what I read I expect the weapons to replace each other like so...
Stickybomb launcher = The Scottish Resistance
Grenade launcher = The Chargin' Targe
Bottle = Eyelander

Rocket Launcher = The Direct Hit
The Shotgun = The Buff Banner
The Shovel = The Equalizer

In addition It's the soldier who is going to be able to blow himself up YAY! See achivement...

Spray of Defeat
Use a grenade to gib a player.

Plus this quote...

This weapon also has the Soldier's associated kill taunt. When you taunt with the Equalizer he will toss the weapon aside, remove one of his chest grenades, and blow himself and any enemies nearby sky high. (The taunt anim plays at a slow speed like other kill taunts, so it isn't trivial to pull it off. The damage radius is very tight as well.)

Demo will have at least one new taunt too...

Second Eye
Provide an enemy player with a freeze cam of you shaking your rump.

Which is probably a taunt for the Eyelander or Targe in reference to Braveheart.

He probably has a second taunt too with this achievement...

Scotch Tap
Glory in the slaughter of your enemies using the Eyelander.

I wonder what his killing taunt will be though. If the soldier already blows himself up it would be repeating yourself to have the demo do the same.

It's nice the Demos are catching up too. I expected the Demo to win by a little when the war started becuase of spam power and the fact match class limits are 1 demo 2 soldiers. I thought I was going to be completely wrong but with them catching up I can't be as far off as a I thought.

Noticeably missing is the announcement of a new map. I expected at least one community map will be announced.

 

[Omega Amen]

Based on what I read I expect the weapons to replace each other like so...
Stickybomb launcher = The Scottish Resistance
Grenade launcher = The Chargin' Targe
Bottle = Eyelander

Umm... not quite.

The targe replaces your tried-and-true sticky bomb launcher,...

So, it will be:

Stickybomb launcher = The Scottish Resistance OR The Chargin' Targe
Grenade launcher = N/A
Bottle = Eyelander

To be frank, reading from its description, I don't see The Scottish Resistance as being a useful alternative to the regular stickybomb.... Well... 16 crit stickies on one spot does sound appealing.

 

[Keero]

I really wanna use the buff banner. Only reason I actually use the Jarate is for crits. I like the sound of all the Soldier stuff. This will be fun.

 

[The Mighty Gerbil]

Umm... not quite.

So, it will be:

Stickybomb launcher = The Scottish Resistance OR The Chargin' Targe
Grenade launcher = N/A
Bottle = Eyelander

Ah ok. I guess then the Soldier update will work differently by replacing all three weapons? Ohhh O.O this means the demo should really get the secret weapon if it is to replace the grenade launcher as he won't have an option for it T_T. Maybe this is what caused more people to go Demo and make a come back.

To be frank, reading from its description, I don't see The Scottish Resistance as being a useful alternative to the regular stickybomb.... Well... 16 crit stickies on one spot does sound appealing.

If what stickies detonate is based on which you are looking at you could...

1. Place some stickies on a point and keep them there while using the rest of them to fight.

2. Place multiple ones on a door and detonate only the half you are directly looking it. Thereby keeping stickies on the door more often. I know once I see a Demo's stickies detonate I rush in knowing he needs a second to place more and this won't be the case anymore. Basically multilayer defenses IMO.

3. Can make the demo sticky jumping thing a more viable escape tactic as you can keep one in reserve.

4. You can stand on your stickies while using them to fight.

On a side note I wasn't really feeling the sword for the demo thing but I'm a melee kind of guy so I'll probably like it.

 

[Omega Amen]

If what stickies detonate is based on which you are looking at you could...

1. Place some stickies on a point and keep them there while using the rest of them to fight.

I can see that being useful if I can detonate from a point where I do not have line-of-sight, which I can do with the regular sticky bomb as opposed to the TSR (according to your stated assumption here).

2. Place multiple ones on a door and detonate only the half you are directly looking it. Thereby keeping stickies on the door more often. I know once I see a Demo's stickies detonate I rush in knowing he needs a second to place more and this won't be the case anymore. Basically multilayer defenses IMO.

I can see that being viable in certain situations, but in actively defending a prolonged attack, I don't see that as being as advantageous anymore considering the longer prime time.

3. Can make the demo sticky jumping thing a more viable escape tactic as you can keep one in reserve.

I escape when I am low on health, which usually means I am not sticky jumping either.

4. You can stand on your stickies while using them to fight.

Okay, that is a very good point. In fact, with that in my mind, I think players new to playing the demoman might prefer the TSR just to avoid self-gibbing.

Honestly, the ability to destroy other stickies is the most appealing to me, but then usually some other class player takes care clearing stickies.

On a side note I wasn't really feeling the sword for the demo thing but I'm a melee kind of guy so I'll probably like it.

Really? I'm pumped. With the targe, it finally gives the demoman a real CQB option.

 

[Glitch]

and as for the name.... "Scottish resistance?"

hurray. I guessed the name correctly

Can't wait to try out this new update....
surprisingly, though the soldier is the easiest class to play... i really stink as a soldier. hopefully the new update will help with that.
and I can't wait to use the shield and sword for the demo... OH MAN... I always dreamt of being a black William Wallace.

 

[Omega Amen]

The Soldiers won the War.

And they get the Gunboats, basically drastically reducing rocket jump damage.

 

[The Mighty Gerbil]

hurray. I guessed the name correctly

Way to go ^^ .

So far I think this is one of the best updates yet. Of course it's full of Valve bugs but for weapons and a fun idea I like it.

So far I've gotten 4 of the Soldier weapons and none of the Demo weapons. It was so easy to get stuff via drops although the drop rate appears to have decreased again. Here is my opinion on the ones I have.

The Gunboats: I REALLY like them. It's almost like limitless rocket jumps if you can control your height so you don't get falling damage. Yeah it's very hard to give up the shotgun but it's worth it sometimes. About the only other negative is their usefulness is directly related to what map you are playing on. The new map ctf_Doublecross is clearly intended for their use and they pwn on it. Also if you have a medic healing you their usefulness goes down a bit. I'm thinking that maybe the weapon that the demo did not get may have done the same thing just for him.

The Equalizer: I like this one a lot too. It's the speed boost not the damage boost that is so great. Pair this with your Gunboats and you have crazy mobility. I generally rarely whip out the shovel unless it's for fun, I'm out of ammo or there is a spy. I'm of the group that thinks this weapon has no downside.

The Buff Banner: I can see it's usefulness but it seems to be directly related to if you have a group who will team up with you to push. At the moment I just can't give up my boots for it.

The Direct Hit: In spite of people liking the Direct Hit it's not a "must" swap IMO. It is more powerful and harder to aim than the regular rocket launcher like Valve said so most of the time you do want it equipped, however, the splash damage on the regular gun can hit multiple enemies much more often so it's not just a question of needing to be "better" to use it. You give up something useful even if you are good with this gun. Basically if I am spamming groups of enemies at mid-range I find the regular launcher to still be good in all other cases (one on one, on enemies at a distance/close up, vs sgs, etc.) if my aim was any good I'd use the Direct Hit.

The downside with these updates is I am feeling like I am falling farther and farther behind as a spy LITERALLY. When Soldiers/Demos aren't running, jumping, or dashing I can still kill them but their speed increase and frequent explosive and damaging jumps are more obstacles for me. Quite frankly with the new weapons it seems easier to kill just about everything as well as move faster nerfing every class a little bit. I don't really want any nerfs for the weapons yet but I wonder if they will be forthcoming since some of these weapons are just so good (at least the ones I have tried).

Also the Sandman works more in line with what I suggested now as it only disarms you for the bonk period unless the target is very far away. It doesn't need the HP debuff anymore. If it must have an additional debuff I'd go back to no double jumping although I don't think that is needed either.

 

[The Mighty Gerbil]

You guys should go to options and try the new mmorpg type damage display option (it's under multiplayer options um approx third one up from the bottom I think). It makes it a lot easier to tell if you are hitting an enemy as you can see the numbers at range.

 

[Whon]

Personal opinion the targin charg is way too powerful. I have no problem having it protect that much from the front really, but it should be like any shield, a rocket in the back should have full damage, this is an ancient weapon, not a force shield like halo.

 

[Omega Amen]

I might as well contradict in some aspects due to my experience playing extensively with both the targe and the regular sticky launcher this weekend.

When using the targe, soldiers who are stubborn and absolutely refuse to change to their other weapons have a hard time killing me. Soldiers who adjust and use their shotgun or their melee weapon have been taking me down easily, actually faster than without the targe, since I am more likely to be within the lethal range of those weapons. I have also suffered a lot more deaths from pyros, scouts, snipers, heavies, and spies when using the targe. And the targe literally makes no difference against an engi. Without the stickies, I also become a liability in defense since I can no longer effectively stop large groups/pushes.

The targe really nerfs other demomen, but when I was using the regular sticky launcher this weekend, opponents using the targe were not enough to change my play style, my performance during matches, or even the outcome of matches. I also found that I tend to rack kills more quickly with the sticky launcher as well, and destroy engi buildings more reliably.

If you want to nerf the close combat kit, I recommend making changes where its offensive buffs are more risky to obtain. I do think the targe needs to be nerfed in regard to its charge ability. It recharges too quickly, which means critical melee hits and safe escapes are too frequently available. Make it recharge more slowly, and also make the charge distance longer. This also means the critical window comes later and the drawbacks of losing directional control will be more apparent. Then make the Eyelander's health and speed buffs temporary that can only be maintained with another sword kill within a short time period. This will punish close combat demomen who are reckless and ignore the support of his teammates.

I have still not got The Scottish Resistance yet. Not many demomen are using it so far.

 

[Keero]

I like the Targe as a Pyro. It's stupidly easy to counter, like a medic trying to melee you. (150 HP anyways) Before, I had a lot of problems with stickies since people airbursted them. Now? Clear skies. xD

 

[The Mighty Gerbil]

I got to more weapons so I'll comment on them...

The Chargin' Targe : I have not used it much due to it's obvious pairing with the sword (which I don't have). I have charge bottled someone though. My experience on the receiving end seem mixed. On one hand it does nothing much for Pyros, Sgs and Heavies. On the other I've hit a Demo with multiple stickies and 2 grenades and he still has not died XD. I do think it needs a small nerf in the explosive resistance department. I don't mind some but I don't think he should be able to take quite that much. The actually charge isn't as easy to avoid as I thought it would be but that may just be me. I've stepped out of the way only to have a Demo curve the charge at the end and still get the crit. I'm going to have to play with it more to be more exact. I certainly don't think it's a game breaker though. There are simply a lot of people using it now so you run into it a lot. Stickies definitely > than Targe overall though.

The Scottish Resistance: I have no idea why people are saying it's not that good on the steam forms. It's crazy good as in why would I ever want to use the regular one good. That's not to say it doesn't have negatives it's just that they are minor to the positives. The negatives are...

1. I have not found a way to sticky jump properly as yet. You may have to do it backwards (looking towards the sticky) as all I can do at the moment is go straight up.

2. Yes it has a longer priming time. This however is more minor than Valve lets on. You will basically have to lead your shots more and you can't air detonate. If a Pyro charges you you may be in for it. Although for other things you can have stickies on the ground ready to detonate and stand in them. With 16 deploy-able you will have them available. Also I don't think it's easy for people to tell sticky types apart so they are still intimidated not knowing if they are primed yet.

3. You will have to be able to manage resources. As in remembering where did I leave X stickies.

4. It needs a new crosshair. It just has the standard sticky crosshair. It needs one that shows the exact viewing area which detonates. The ones that you can detonate change color to indicate it but a large circle crosshair would still help.

The positives are...

1. You've not only got more stickies but with control over which detonate you will find you run out less IMO.

2. You don't have to stay on a point OR be within sight of it to detonate the stickies. You can detonate them through wall you just have to look in the direction they are in. It does have a range but you can pretty far away from a point and have stickies on it. I wish you could see the stickies through walls so you could target them but I guess you can't have everything. Now you can spawn camp multiple spawn doors at the same time .

If you are an aggressive Demo it's possible you may prefer the regular one but this one is far from being a purely defensive sticky launcher.

 

[vibrokatana]

The Chargin' Targe : I have not used it much due to it's obvious pairing with the sword. My experience on the receiving end seem mixed. On one hand it does nothing much for Pyros, Sgs and Heavies. On the other I've hit a Demo with multiple stickies and 2 grenades and he still has not died XD. I do think it needs a small nerf in the explosive resistance department. I don't mind some but I don't think he should be able to take quite that much. The actually charge isn't as easy to avoid as I thought it would be but that may just be me. I've stepped out of the way only to have a Demo curve the charge at the end and still get the crit. I'm going to have to play with it more to be more exact. I certainly don't think it's a game breaker though. There are simply a lot of people using it now so you run into it a lot. Stickies definitely > than Targe overall though.

The targe makes the grenade launcher much, much more effective. Unless their is a sniper or a scout running around you have free reign to spam grenades (and because it only takes one or two hits for most classes this is very effective). People don't really have an incentive to close with you as you will crit swing them with the sword. If you do nothing but rush into groups of enemies you will be slaughtered, but if you play strategically the extra survival power is incredibly op.

As for pyros it is sorta mixed. If they try to just use the flamethrower on you then they will be minus their head due to the resistances (which also effects the DoT). If they airblast and shotty then your dead.

 

[The Mighty Gerbil]

As for pyros it is sorta mixed. If they try to just use the flamethrower on you then they will be minus their head due to the resistances (which also effects the DoT). If they airblast and shotty then your dead.

That is what I've been doing so far in fact Pyro is my preferred class to kill them with. Heavy can do it as long as the Demo doesn't get close to you. I've mowed down one charging directly for me but you have to start shooting them at a distance. I do think the Targe needs an explosive damage resistance nerf I just don't think they are quite as overpowered as they seem... as yet. I need to test more though.

It also seems possible to use the mini-crit on your grenades although I haven't tried it.

 

[Omega Amen]

As for pyros it is sorta mixed. If they try to just use the flamethrower on you then they will be minus their head due to the resistances (which also effects the DoT). If they airblast and shotty then your dead.

If the Pyro has the axetinguisher, the Pyro wins. At this point, I am charging away from Pyros.

That is what I've been doing so far in fact Pyro is my preferred class to kill them with. Heavy can do it as long as the Demo doesn't get close to you. I've mowed down one charging directly for me but you have to start shooting them at a distance. I do think the Targe needs an explosive damage resistance nerf I just don't think they are quite as overpowered as they seem... as yet. I need to test more though.

The targe is only really useful in certain types of maps as well. For example, it is far more effective on smaller maps or cart maps where the battle areas are inherently smaller.

But on bigger maps, especially with multiple layers of elevation? You might as well sit out the game. For example, on gravelpit last night, I saw 4 fellow demomen on my team start out with the targe. Within two minutes, they all switched back to their stickies and never switched back for the rest of their play time on that map. With the targe, they could not get anything done, and I was just as ineffective when I tried the targe midway through the game.

A grenade launcher, believe it or not, can only do so much at long range. It is far less reliable in taking down engi buildings, and it is most effective in firing in groups of enemies to quickly soften them up. On a larger map, where opponents are more spread out and there is more crossfire, the targe makes you waste a player slot on the server.

It also seems possible to use the mini-crit on your grenades although I haven't tried it.

No, you do not yield crits for grenades with the charge. Your launcher will get the crit glow, but the grenade actually does not get any crit buff. It only applies to melee.

The targe's cooldown is still too short, in my opinion. Too many crits and escape opportunities.

Also, Gerbil, I was not aware that you can detonate TSR stickies with no line-of-sight. I will experiment with TSR some more now that you told me that. I think though you are really understating the negatives. You are going to get a lot of demos killed with the way you portrayed the TSR.