The Bible vs a Biology Textbook

[The Mighty Gerbil]

I'm a Gerbil the next step in man's Evolution

Death had to occur before sin or else what did all the carnivores eat. Technically eating plants causes them to die as well (Genesis 1:29-30). Clearly this did not extend to Adam and Eve. Man is set apart from the animals by God. Now while God can and does do the "direct sudden miracle out of thin air" it doesn't mean he does so in every case. Whether you believe in evolution or not in our case he did not make us from nothing "Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being." Genesis 2:7. It is interesting to note that both evolution's "mud" and the "dust" God made us from are very similar base materials (mud is wet dust). I also tend to think of God forming something not with limited physical hands but with things like time and nature. The bible is only a 1000 page book so clearly technical details on many things would have been left out. So it becomes a question of how many steps were in there.

Also consider words in the Bible we may take as allegorical may not be. They may simply be the product of a vocabulary that could not come any closer. If you had a vision of the future that showed a plane dropping a nuke you couldn't very well call it a plane because you don't know what one is. You'd call it whatever was most similar to your mind like maybe "dragon" or something. Technically it's all a sliding scale of accuracy depending on what terms you know Dragon < flying boat < Plane < Fighter < F 16 . Likewise there was no concept of evolution so how could you call it evolution?

While I am in the weird group that believes God made us via evolution at some point he certainly endowed us with a soul and set us apart from all other life on earth (and it doesn't mean it was a strait path with that whole making eve thing). Whether he set us apart at the dust point or the theoretical later monkey point it still makes us more than animals and that's the important part. That's also the reason I don't think evolution should be taught in schools because it is presented as the "origin of life" and it's not, God is. Teaching children they are the product of randomness and are nothing more than animals is asking for a generation that can justify anything they do (Why not kill a person when he is no different than the food I eat?).

Also In school I remember being taught that a meteor killed the Dinosaurs. That it was presented as a theory was completely lost on me and probably the class too as there were no other theories presented nor any debate on it's accuracy. Now they have modified that theory to add that they evolved not simply died out. My point is if they can present such a alterable theory there is no reason not to give intelligent design air time as well (they've just now decided Pluto isn't a planet but were teaching that for a long time).

On a couple of side notes:

First much of what is taught in schools is subject to bias. There are probably not to many blatant lies but clearly some subjects are given more time than others resulting in a skewed view (slavery, being cruel to Native Americans, Christian cruelty > abolitionists, Native Americans being cruel to others, Christian charity). If anything what should be impressed upon school children, by schools themselves, it's that everything that comes out of a teacher (or anyone's) mouth or is written in a book is not necessary correct. Imbuing them with a sense of individuality and a thirst to question seems to have taken a backseat to conformity i.e. political correctness.

Secondly the term "random" (which is used in evolution) is understood by many as "proceeding, made, or occurring without definite aim, or pattern". When it should be perceived as something more akin to "proceeding, made or occurring from a unknown aim or pattern". For science to use the term at all, by the first definition, is against the principles of science itself, yet in evolution it is used. That fact was never clarified to me in school. I believe science on occasion uses "random" to avoid simply saying "we don't know".

Thirdly to the comment on the conflict between making the Heavens and Earth in 7 days and the trillions of years model both could be correct. I've heard one scientist's theory that because time is relative (time supposedly slows as you approach the speed of light) when you take the whole universe into account the timeframes of 7 days and trillions of years could be the same, depending on where you are in the universe. I'm soooo not a physicist so I cannot comment on it, I'd just thought I'd mention the theory exists.

Finally I'd be perfectly happy to have you guys debunk evolution. I really have no love for it and would be perplexed as to why any Christian would cling to the theory so much they would be offended if contradicted. I've heard on the forums the evolutionary model doesn't work beyond micro-evolution but I haven't got around to researching why.

 

[ppar3566]

what you said.

Well said. The important part is that we are different from animals and I think you have hit on some important points.

I don't have any particular love for evolution either but I do get frustrated by a lack of clear thinking on the issue by Christians. It is true to say that evolution v Creationism is not a big deal to us. But it can be a major stepping stone for many non-christians people to coming to know Christ, that I think need not be one. I mean sure there are other things that non-christians have problems with that we must hold to (i.e. virgin birth and resurection), but on both the weight of evidence and the fact that there are other interpretation of how God made the world byond typicall intelligent design and thus I don't think we shouldn't be going out of our way to push ID view on others when there is no need.

As a side note I talked to my sister the other day about this issue where she said she told her 3 children that evolution was a lie and God made the world via the literal interpretation of Genesis, because it was easier for her children to understand and to fit in with their friends at church. I pointed out to her that by not giving her children a chance to consider evolution as part of Gods plan could result in their oldest child (the one that will probebly go to college) having to adandon Christ because of the weight of evidence for evolution he recieves at college or ignore all the evidence at college and struggle with how to intergrate God into the new worldview we all gain when we go to college. I know I struggled with the same issue about three years ago and now I look back on it and wish someone had of told me that evolution and God's word could go together. Would have saved me lots of pain!

 

[ppar3566]

....

1. I whole hartedly agree with you on your last point. I gained a lot of respect for you and your point last time we discussed this and it definately sent me away to do more research. I kinda wanted to get away from the actual central debate to, like you said, making sure we avoid conflict.I think in this way you might have missunderstood the parts you quote from my previous post. I wasn't putting them up as my views rather I was asking for clarification on someone elses view. I did say I leant towards a similar view in 1 instance but I wouldn't put my views in the same way nor am I 100% in agreement with them.
2. I think your question about why couldn't what the first Jews belived and what we believe now both be valid is a good one (and yes I know it was a retorical question). I point back to my earlier quote about how Gods word should never be interpreted in a way that is not in keeping with the historical and literary context. This is really important. I have grown up in a conservative fundementalist AOG church. In the AOG we implicitly suggest that God gives different interpretations of the same passage to different people and that these interpretations need not have anything to do with the historical and literary context. This sounds fine and was couched in the idea that the Holy Spirit was reavealing these different interpretations among us. The problem was that sometimes the different interpretations of the passage clashed suggesting opposite things and because we did not take the literary and historical context seriously we had no point of call to decide which if any was the right interpretation.

 

[Odale]

As a clarification of what my statement was, here is a quote of the sentence I was targeting.

In the beginning, God created everything, and it was good. There was no sin. And because there was no sin, there was no death.

Here is what I meant:

1. God made the earth and everything on it, save Adam and Eve.
2. God made Adam
3. God made Eve
4. They ate the forbidden fruit
5. By eating the fruit, they introduce sin into the world
6. Now, you can sin, and when your body fails you (your body is no longer functioning, and it ceases to move/interact with the world around it...), you have the opportunity for your Soul to die.

Death = Not physical death, but spiritual death.
Death = Your spirit can no longer go to be with God, because you have sinned. Therefore, you must go to Hell.
Death =/= You are immortal.
Death = Your spirit is going to Hell after your Earthly experience kicks the bucket.

...That's also the reason I don't think evolution should be taught in schools because it is presented as the "origin of life" and it's not, God is.

Where I went to school, there was a giant sticker in the book on the inside of the cover in plain view that clearly stated that evolution is a theory, not a fact yadda yadda yadda. I am sorry that you did not get the best picture while you were in school, but I believe that if school systems clarify that some of the information in the book can be flawed, (not everything the schools teach them can be flawed, then students would question every subject's validity) then there is no problem opening their eyes to new points of views / arguments / beliefs etc.

(time supposedly slows as you approach the speed of light)

Actually, how you worded it, time does not slow as you approach the speed of light, but you speed up; so it seems (to you) that time has slowed.

On another note... as you venture further away from earth time does actually slow, because time has to quicken in order to maintain the rotation degrees and time ratio.

Anyway... back on topic!

 

[TheChad1215]

This is all incredibly intriguing. Props to everyone--one of the best threads I've read lately and perfectly civil (which I wish I could see more of surrounding these things...). I'm one who has justified and "synergized" the theories with my own beliefs and have, for a time, taken a step away from the whole debate to focus on other parts of my faith. But I still love hearing it all.

-Chadley

 

[Bonk!Ow!]

As a clarification of what my statement was, here is a quote of the sentence I was targeting. Here is what I meant:

1. God made the earth and everything on it, save Adam and Eve.
2. God made Adam
3. God made Eve
4. They ate the forbidden fruit
5. By eating the fruit, they introduce sin into the world
6. Now, you can sin, and when your body fails you (your body is no longer functioning, and it ceases to move/interact with the world around it...), you have the opportunity for your Soul to die.

Death = Not physical death, but spiritual death.
Death = Your spirit can no longer go to be with God, because you have sinned. Therefore, you must go to Hell.
Death =/= You are immortal.
Death = Your spirit is going to Hell after your Earthly experience kicks the bucket.

But entropy kicked in. Weeds would grow in the crops, it would become work to produce food from the soil, it would be painful giving birth, etc. It was a physical death, too. Not immediate, but they obviously died eventually.

 

[Stc95]

Ya. i agree with you Durruck. Evolution says we are getting bigger, better, stronger, smarter. But really we are getting smaller, worse, weaker, and dumber. In the last 50 years they had to dumb down the SAT's so people would get higher scores... TWICE, and people are still failing..

 

[Odale]

I don't think the SAT's figure in to evolution too much.

From Durruck:

And if you take a step back, and think about that God created the perfect world, the perfect man, woman, trees, plants, animals, etc... and then gave us all free will, you could say that everything that's happened since Adam's time has been DE-evolution. We've gotten sicker, lived shorter lives, been affected by more problems, and flat made a mess of this place. Doesn't sound like we're really getting any smarter, does it?

Why have we gotten sicker? Why have we (in some cases) lived shorter lives? Why do we have more problems than we ever have before?

The answers are simple! We have progressed!

Scientific Revolution that began way back in the Renaissance has produced many medicines, many machines and other inventions intended to make our lives easier; however, many of those inventions, medicines and other paraphernalia that humans produced had unseen effects. The act of burning coal was seen as totally acceptable 100 years ago, and when the first automobiles with internal combustion engines emerged, no one knew the exhaust was caustic.

In many cases, the cost of progression has been the health of people, the wellbeing of Earth, more problems and other malevolent attributes that we still to this day may not see.

The simple answer is that the reason we have problems with our health, made a wreck of our planet and other problems you've cited (except longevity... think we got that under control with the exception of 3rd world countries) are all caused by humanity's effort to advance ourselves.

 

[Avesther]

I came upon a revelation a few days ago and I thought it would be good to share it with you all.

Bible-believing Jesus-loving God-fearing Christians can NOT believe in evolution. Here is why...

In the beginning, God created everything, and it was good. There was no sin. And because there was no sin, there was no death. Evolution needs death as a stepping stone from one advancement to the next. Man was made, and THEN there was sin and death. It wasn't the other way around. To believe in both the Bible and your biology textbook puts you at war with yourself.

Note: I am speaking of macroevolution, not microevolution. Microevolution has been documented and proven. Macroevolution, the growth from ape to human, has not.

1. I believe and don't believe in evolution. I do not believe it is possible for life to evolve from one species to another. While it may be true that you can take a fruit fly and have it reproduce thousands of times, eventually you will come up with a fruit fly that is unable to reproduce with the population of fruit fly's of their parents. But it is still a fruit fly, not an new species of apes.

2. I believe God is big enough to create through simple will of creation : Poof, there is man. And through evolution : Allowing changes within a species according to God's design. Don't limit God unless God has said it is not in his nature to do.

3. The bible is not a biological text book, thankfully. I'd hate to think where medicine would be if it were. A biology text book is a sum of knowledge, whether right or wrong, garnered by human observation. It is up to the discerning reader to determine what they believe in a text book to be factual or what to chalk up to inexperience.

4. The bible in itself is a living word. Today something may be allogorical to you, tomorrow, that same passage may have more direct impact on how you view your relationship with God and the world. This is why it is so hard to say one passage or another can be taken litterally or not.

5. Evolution, as survival of the fittest, is always about loosing genetic information. Take for example the fruit fly's above. How is loosing the ability to breed with the parent sample a gain in information? For a more direct example, if you take a species of dog that's genes are such that it produces long and short haired types and throw the species into the artic, eventually, all the dogs that carry the short hair genes will die off in the cold leaving only dogs with the long hair genes. This type of dog will have lost the ability to produce short haired dogs, this is a genetic loss of information, the dogs did not gain the ability to produce long hair, they've always had it.

6. Even microevolution in a great many cases is impossible to have occoured. The trial by error method in Evolution in many sub systems of our own existance would fail miserably. Many systems, in our own bodies, if not perfectly in place would mean certain death long before the time line required for survival of the fittest would ever kick in. There are many systems that could not ever survive a step by step evolutionary process, they simply had to be there upon them coming into being. Take for example our bodies ability to create scabs so we don't bleed out. The system that does this within our body is so extremely complex that should any one part of it be out of order, the scabbing does not form, or the congealment blood will not happen. Even today, if your body can not properly form a scab, you are at risk of dieing, but thanks to the evolution of medicine, treatment of these blood conditions are possible. The first life in the evolutionary scale to have blood flowing through veins would have to have had this process already in place because there were no doctors, no drugs and nobody knew First aid to put pressure on wound.

 

[Cruxshadow]

I tend to take a pretty high level look on this issue. In terms of science, we must look for observable evidence, the things we see around us, and natural principles we can discern. In the Bible, we have litterally "The Word of God", but does that mean that everything in the bible is litteral? Some say yes, some say no, for the sake of open inquiry I'll leave the question open.

Depending on how we answer that question, affects how we read the first sentance :
In the beginning of God's preparing the heavens and the earth - the earth hath existed waste and void, and darkness on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God fluttering on the face of the waters, and God saith, `Let light be;' and light is."

Does this mean a flat ball of rock and water floating in nothingness and darkness, and at God's word, a light is turned on? (not the sun, that is made later).

Or is this the best way that Moses can explain something that is so alien to his time and language? Certainly God uses imagery and signs frequently thoughout the bible in dreams and visions, that are not neccesarily litteral, is it possible this is the case here?

What I can say is that if we read it in terms of a vision or symbology, we find an interpretation that has a remarkably tight tracking to natural history compared to anything else humanity has written down before the 19th century. We have "nothing", we have an earth that essentially Is Not (the idea, not the form). Is The Deep water, or is it the quantum canvas from which all matter and energy is given form? Does God turn on some light switch somewhere, light a candle, (a light emitter), or does he at this time AUTHOR light, that is to say, did the very physical concept and laws of electromagnetic radiation exist and apply before God spoke this, or did they come into existance and become truth BECAUSE of his utterance?

The latter is certainly fits the awesome God who is the founder and creater of the universe, not just a mere presence within it. What does it mean to be Outside the Universe? What exactly does Time mean to something that is not neccessarily bound by the Time Space continuum, indeed, something which CREATED the Time Space continuum?

Personally I don't like to get into a situation where I say what can and can not do with our universe, nor has and has not done. Even with the state of our science today we are very ignorant about what came before Planck density, and what goes on beneath the quantum foam. I am content with God's message of his creation, his wisdom and love, our rebellion, and his offer of salvation and redemption to all who would receive him. It describes our universe and humanity very well in my opinion, and while always worth discussion and pondering, isn't worth contention and ire amongst his children.

 

[Elihu]

In dealing with the subject of what was here before the time of Adam it is important to note that there are not many scriptures referring to this time period and those that do are general, so the conclusions drawn from them must not be overly dogmatic.

In trying to get an idea about what was here before Adam we must, of course, look at the Genesis record. Genesis 1:1-2 says:

Gen 1:1:

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Gen 1:2:

And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

The first verse reveals God creating the heaven and earth. Verse two says the earth was without form and void. It has been noted by many Bible scholars that the word “was” should be translated “became”. One such scholar is Albert Barnes who wrote “Albert Barnes’ Notes on the Bible.” Following are Barnes’ notes on Genesis 1:2:

...the verb (”was”) in this sentence, we observe it is in the perfect state, and therefore denotes that the condition of confusion and emptiness was not in progress, but had run its course and become a settled thing, at least at the time of the next recorded event. If the verb had been absent in Hebrew, the sentence would have been still complete, and the meaning as follows: “And the land was waste and void.” With the verb present, therefore, it must denote something more. The verb hayáh “be” has here, we conceive, the meaning “become;” and the import of the sentence is this: “And the land had become waste and void.” This affords the presumption that the part at least of the surface of our globe which fell within the cognizance of primeval man, and first received the name of land, may not have been always a scene of desolation or a sea of turbid waters, but may have met with some catastrophe by which its order and fruitfulness had been marred or prevented. (Commenatary on Genesis 1:2)

Between the time of God’s original creation of the earth in verse one and it becoming formless and without void, something must have taken place. Let’s look at another scripture that seems to verify this fact:

Isaiah 45:18 (KJVR):

For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

God did not create the earth in “vain.” The Hebrew word for vain here is tohu. This word means without form and has the idea of confusion. God did not create the earth without form or in confusion. To the contrary, the Bible states:

1 Corinthians 14:33 (KJVR):

For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

God is not the author of confusion. Notice in Genesis 1:2, the earth became without form (The Hebrew word is the same as in Isaiah 45:18. It is tohu). If God did not create the earth “tohu,” how did it become “tohu” or without form and in confusion?

We believe the confusion and barrenness on earth was the result of the fall of Lucifer. Several scriptures reveal that God had placed Lucifer on earth to rule over it for God. We are given several glimpses of what was existed before the creation of Adam. These scriptures refer to the fall of Lucifer:

Ezekiel 28:12-18:

Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffic; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

Isaiah 14:9-17:

Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.

All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?

Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

In Ezekiel it says Lucifer was filled with violence from the multitude of “merchandise” and defiled God’s sanctuaries by the iniquity of his “traffic.” Both merchandise and traffic mean “trade” in Hebrew. Lucifer was over the trading and commerce of some sort prior to his fall. In Isaiah 14, it states that Lucifer weakened the nations and made the world as a wilderness and destroyed the cities thereof. This must have been before Adam because even during the tribulation the earth will not be made a wilderness nor all the cities destroyed. When the terms “nations” and “cities” are mentioned we automatically think of man as we know him and our present way of life.

This passage indicates the existence of cities and governments over which Lucifer ruled and also governed trade. It also seems to indicate that some form of being existed before Adam. We can only speculate what these beings were. Some theorize demons are some form of this pre-Adamic race of beings. We know demons are not the fallen angels because the Bible clearly records that the fallen angels are being held in Tartarus awaiting judgment. (See 2 Peter 2:4. The world “hell” is the Greek word tartarus) Demons are always are looking for a body to inhabit. Demons look for a host body to live in. (see Mark 5:12 where the demons desired to depart into the swine) It seems demons are disembodied spirits looking for a body to dwell in. These quite possibly could be from a race of beings that lived prior to Adam whom Lucifer ruled over and who are now disembodied spirits. Again, we must not be dogmatic over such issues.

Let’s look at another passage speaking of the world before Adam.

Jeremiah 4:23-27:

I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.

I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.

I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.

I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.

For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.


God gave Jeremiah a vision of the world prior to Adam. God showed him the earth that had become without form (tohu) and void, and the heavens that had no light. Man had not yet been created and the birds that apparently existed had fled. The fruitful place was a wilderness, all the cities were broken down, and the whole land was desolate. We know this was not after Adam because since the creation of man there has never been a time when the earth was without form and void, neither are there any scriptures indicating that this condition will occur in the future. Verse 27 indicates that although the land will be desolate, it will not be completely destroyed. God had plans to restore the earth, create man, and replenish the earth. (Genesis 1:28)

Although this has been a fascinating study, I believe the Bible says little about this time period because it does not impact our lives today nor our future destinies. Whatever and whoever existed before Adam cannot be compared to the creation of man. Adam and Eve were created in God’s image and man was designed to rule with Him over all of the works of His hands. Jesus came to earth as a man and died for humanity. There is no salvation provided for demons or fallen angels. When God originally created the heavens and earth, He had mankind in mind. What or who existed before man is fun to ponder and speculate about but we must guard about placing undue emphasis upon it. Enjoy your studies!


Rick McFarland bio
Director/Singles Director
Real Answers bookstore
Grace Church

 

[Elihu]

In a previous question, (please refer to the archive question: What was here before Adam?) we showed from the scriptures that God did not create the earth in confusion or in chaos. (Isaiah 45:18) God is not the author of confusion. (1 Corinthians 14:33) Genesis 1:2 says the earth became without form and void. We believe this came because of the fall of Lucifer.

From Ezekiel chapter 28 and from Isaiah chapter 14, we are told Lucifer ruled over the earth and over Eden, the garden of God. When Lucifer fell, some type of destruction came. But Genesis 1:1-3 indicates God spoke to the void, His Spirit moved and the earth as we know it was created.

The Bible gives very little information, but it seems Lucifer ruled over beings prior to his fall. The Bible gives us no indication of exactly what type of beings they were. The Bible says Lucifer was corrupted by trade and merchandise (Ezekiel 28:16, 18). Apparently a race of beings existed that were involved in trade and commerce of some kind. The demons may have come from this race that existed before Adam because the Bible indicates demons seek bodies to inhabit and they seem to be disembodied spirits. It seems clear that demons are not fallen angels since the fallen angels are being held in chains in the Abyss. (2 Peter 2:4, Jude 1:6) Demons are alive and roaming the earth.

Dinosaurs probably existed during the time Lucifer ruled prior to his fall rather than after his fall. One common question is, “Were dinosaurs on the Ark?” If there had been the dinosaurs would have existed during the time period between Adam and Noah and would have been destroyed in the flood. The problem with this scenario is according to the dimensions of the Ark mentioned in the Bible, many of the dinosaurs would have been much too large! We have found fossils of dinosaurs that would not fit into the door of the Ark. Some of the larger dinosaurs would have taken up so much room none of the other animals would have fit!

Man has found dinosaur fossils 130 feet long and 60 feet tall! The Ark dimensions were approximately 450 ft. long, 75 ft wide and only 45 feet tall. Some of those dinosaurs would definitely have had to duck their heads to get into the door! I am sure God did not tell any creatures, “So sorry Big Guy! You’re just too big. I guess you’ll just have to die in the flood!” The Bible says every clean and unclean animal type living at the time of Noah was present in the Ark. (Genesis 7:2)

Some Christians teach dinosaurs are not real and the fossils man has discovered are fakes or even worse, God made them to test whether we believe Him or science. We believe dinosaurs once lived on the face of the earth and their fossils are genuine. There is no need to try to explain away the dinosaurs and the age of the earth because the Word of God reveals that the earth predates Adam and Eve and the creation account (the time from Genesis 1:2 through chapter 2).

This period is not so much a record of original creation as it is reconstruction of creation after the fall of Lucifer. We believe Genesis 1:1 is original creation and verse 2 and onward is the reconstruction of the earth. Between verse 1 and verse 2 was the reign and fall of Lucifer and we believe the time of the dinosaurs. God judged the earth with a flood and the earth became without form and void. The Bible does not go into great detail about the time of Adam and Eve or what existed prior to Adam, so we can not be overly dogmatic on these issues.

Sometimes there appears to be discrepancies between science and the Bible, but don’t be concerned because science is catching up to the Bible! Every day there are more and more discoveries proving what the Bible says is true. Every science, from astronomy to zoology, is making discoveries supporting biblical truths and the fact that God is the Creator. There are many things we do not understand now, but we can believe in the One Who does understand! One day He will answer every question. I look forward to that day, don’t you!


Rick McFarland bio
Director/Singles Director
Real Answers bookstore
Grace Church

 

[Elihu]

**Found the above an interesting read, thought I would share.

 

[tjguitarz]

Everything said in your very long post.

Eh... about the dinosaurs... did the Bible say that only adult species were allowed into the arc? I'd imagine that some teensy dinosaurs would be able to fit with tremendous ease. Furthermore, a large percentage of dinosaurs were not very big.

There is plenty of evidence to support dinosaurs existed with man. For instance, numerous different cultures all around the world have had astonishingly accurate drawings or carvings of dinosaurs compared to those we know today. Many historians have made notes of dinosaurs in their notes. Marco Polo, on his trip somewhere in Asia, made mention of a giant monster that stood on two large legs and had two scrawny legs hanging off its chest (T-rex...?). It's not just really really old guys that made note of dinosaurs. Stories from London in the 1800s spoke of a Pterodactyl found living while they were carving away a train tunnel. Furthermore, fossilized footprints have been found with both man and T-rex in the same place on the same level of dirt.

 

[Stc95]

Ehilu, i disagree on a few points listed above. I have broken them up (kinda) and divided them with fun ----------'s. Please correct anything that might be wrong or ask a question or debate.

The problem with this scenario is according to the dimensions of the Ark mentioned in the Bible, many of the dinosaurs would have been much too large! We have found fossils of dinosaurs that would not fit into the door of the Ark. Some of the larger dinosaurs would have taken up so much room none of the other animals would have fit!

you dont take the mommy and the daddy animals, you take the babies cause:
1) They eat less
2) They sleep more
4) Take up less room
3) They make more babies (which is the whole point!)
-----------------------------------------------------

God did not create the earth in “vain.” The Hebrew word for vain here is tohu. This word means without form and has the idea of confusion. God did not create the earth without form or in confusion.

And God is not the author of confusion. Thats plain and simple. But by your definition Tohu means void and with the idea of confusion... with the IDEA of confusion.

Isnt God confusing to US? Our minds are not able to understand. God works on a whole level above. So yes, it probably did look VERY confusing, but was it? God created it, He knew what He was doing. It might have the IDEA for confusion, but God knew exactly what it is He was doing, makeing the Earth.

And you got to start somewhere, when building a house you start with wood right? and then you start with the "skeleton" of the house right? well... that looks confusing! That has the IDEA of being confusing right? Just a bunch of peices of wood standing up, running straight, holes. But when you continue making the house it all comes together.

You can say the same thing with biscuits. all the ingrediants are gross alone, but when you put them all together and 400 degrees of heat, they make something delicious.
---------------------------------------------------------

We believe the confusion and barrenness on earth was the result of the fall of Lucifer. Several scriptures reveal that God had placed Lucifer on earth to rule over it for God. We are given several glimpses of what was existed before the creation of Adam. These scriptures refer to the fall of Lucifer:

Ezekiel 28:12-18:

Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

This scripture can't prove that Satan fell BEFORE Adam because the Garden wasnt MADE until Adam was created. Therefor Satan couldnt have fallen before hand because he was walking around in Eden as an Angel. A good guy... Pre-Fall..

[QUOT=Elihu]By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. [/QUOTE]
Merchandise can mean getting groceries at the store. It can mean buying a house in heaven. Or couldn't it be some abstract thing? Like maybe power?? "For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north"
Satan wanted to be God... but the position is taken and he couldn't do a good enough job anyway. Satan's "merchandise" or "trade" i believe, is his power, his desire to become as God. Or could it be that Satan got greedy in hevean?? Satan is an angel living in hevean right? They have trade there? Doesnt it say that we will have jobs in hevean (lacking scripture, plz forgive)? and the root of all Evil is the greed for money, no? Just because merchandise means trade, doesnt mean it was pre-Adamite civilization trade.
--------------------------------

These quite possibly could be from a race of beings that lived prior to Adam whom Lucifer ruled over and who are now disembodied spirits.

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned

There was no death before sin. I think that scripture makes it pretty clear. If there were people who lived before Adam, they would have had to have been immortal (or at least immortal until Adam sinned). Because as Romans says, death entered through sin, and sin entered through Adam.

Personally i dont think any living thing (those with the breath of life) did not die BEFORE Adam sinning. This means that there were no carnivors. Everyone ate plants (which arnt alive, no Breath of Life).

And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

This explains dinosaurs. As Dinosaurs are just lizards REALLY big right? Did you know that a lizard never stops growing. Well Adam if nothing died for lets say 50 years... thats a BIG lizard.
-------------------------------
Jeremiah 4:23-27:

I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.

I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.

I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.

I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.

For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.

Could this not be after the Rapture? God said He will make a new Earth.

Behold, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind.

There will be no people on THIS earth because after the Rapture and Tribulation God will judge everyone and He will make a new Earth. THIS Earth will be without form and void. There was no man because Jesus took them all. All the cities were broken because of no man to repair them. (Ever see I am Ledgen with Will Smith, picture that expect no Will Smith and no people... nothing... OR it WILL be like I am Ledgen and that is where the souls who will be cast into the pit of fire will stay until ultimate Judgement).
----------------------------

Although this has been a fascinating study, I believe the Bible says little about this time period because it does not impact our lives today nor our future destinies.

The Bible talks a lot about this time period, there's a whole step by step process of how God did it. If it wasnt important it would read "God made the Earth, made Adam and Eve...." But He didnt write it that way he wrote it very precise "Let there be a firmament... Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together..." Very precisise.

It does impact our lives today because Evolution is corrupting our society. (The Gap theory leaves room for Evolution). Evolution is dangerous. Hitler bases his Hit List by who is most "Ape-Like" Jews were considered almost pure Ape.

In 1959 President Eisenhower (a man which i hold in high honor, but obviously didnt make a good choice) asked congrass for $1 Billion for the promotion of the new science of Evolution. He did this because the Russians were beating us in the Space Race, Ike thought that they were winning because they were teaching evolution in schools. So Ike gets $10,500,000 to pump into our schools to teach evolution.


NOTEk well its really late for me. I got school in the morning, i'll add more to this tommorrow when i have time. Thanks all.

 

[Avesther]

Good read Elihu, I love tickling my brain with such thoughts. This is not the first time I've read that Genesis reveals two different creations and Adam and Eve are not part of the original creation. From a historical point of view, it really begins to make sense. And it really congrues (lines up, is synergous) with all the research I've done on creation vs evolution.

 

[moxie]

Wow, that was a great read Elihu. I'm definitely going to do more research on that theory, as I think it may coincide with some other things I've been thinking about regarding paranormal activity.

 

[Stc95]

I've Edited my post above to refect more on what Ehilu has said.

 

[Elihu]

This was something that was written by someone at my church a while back. My pastor has taught (not necessarily saying he supports it or not) on these and other things pertaining to creation and evolution to help "inform" the congeregation of the different teachings that are out there. I personally love seeing alot of aspects, as it helps me to affirm what I myself believe. I was born and raised with a "by the book" approach to creation as in Genesis, and most of me adheres to that today. But I can't help but be curious about other thoughts on the subject. I wanted to see what others thought of this Gap theory as I find that its been the closest in relation to the Word and science. I could do a rebuttal on the above, but I've had no time to research more on my own about it and don't want to portray something without knowledge.

 

[Elihu]

Ok, doing some research at work though I prob shouldn't be...lol. I'm going to provide links that are both for and against the Gap Theory. Its not exactly what I would call heavy reading, but its def. by no means light either.

Example 1

Example 2

Example 3

Example 4

Example 5 - a good read