Tuesday morning ponderings...

[Zazzy]

Since the server is down for maint...and I have too much time on my hands. I thought I'd waste some forum space and share my thoughts and plans for Zacch. He's a lot of fun to play, and I'm kinda proud of my hunter and being able to get him all the way to 60.

I think my plans shall be to get Zacch the best PvP reward gear possible. I know the higher in rank you get the harder it can be to gain the next rank. But the pvp gear is pretty good. It comes in sets of 6 though, instead of 8. For instance, the rare pvp gear is better than the beaststalkers. And the epic pvp gear, for those who make it, is better than the raid tier 2 epic gear (dragonstalkers) as individual items, at least. Still gotta account for the fact that you don't get a pvp belt or bracers.

So, I wanna see how far I can get in pvp ranks. And then, I still need to get an epic mount, or I may just get the pvp mount at rank 11 since it's so much cheaper and I'm well on my way there.

Then last, but not least, I need a better bow! I've been using a lvl 50 bow for too long now. I'm surprised I can still beat Haiden in duels as often as I do. A nice one seems to drop in ZG. Or if I can ever get exalted with WSG, they have a nice bow also. Or perhaps God will bless me with an epic bow drop in Deadwind pass one day while farming.

So, those are my plans for Zacch, until the expansion comes out and then it's back to questing and better gear, again.

If I can reach those goals before the expansion, I shall play my newest toon, Xroads on Cenarius server. A lvl 2 tarren druid. I always thought druids seemed cool. They can do it all.

And then my lvl 32 mage is still laying in wait for some action as well. No plans for him though.

 

[Sassperilla]

hmm Zacc i like ur ideas lol since i did the same thing this mornin but yea im tryin to PvP Sass to Commander even though atm im trying to get the money for a normal mount

 

[Zazzy]

And just to clearify, I still love running raids/instances/pvp fishing trips etc... with my fellow guildies and will definetly fit time in for you guys still. Hopefully ZG is something we will continue to run as that is one that's easier for me to make time for out of all the raids. Maybe even ony, but I have to get attunded first!


Redeemed FTW

 

[Melinarlia]

Well....I really don't have plans for Meli now that she's got her epic mount. Been playing my priest a bit and getting experience healing and playing a healer. I guess I've never really had plans for Meli but since not too much of my set is dropping in MC....I don't know. Meli's geared pretty well for tanking now since I got the Deathbone Leggings and her defense is now over 400 with 4800+HP. Hmm....anyone got any suggestions for what Meli could do next? =P

 

[Avesther]

Actually the PvP gear is built differently then the PvE gear. I don't know much about hunters, so I'll give you my thoughts based on the priest gear.

Here is the Prophecy set
Every piece individually and the set bonus are all about helping me be a better healer. +134 healing, 170 Intellect (tonnes of mana) and 117 Spirit (tonnes of mana regeneration for long fights).

Compared to the blue PvP set
+114 healing, 80 intellect (massive hit on the mana pool) and 0 spirit (considering I have a talent that takes 25% of my spirit and adds it to my +healing\+damage, 0 spirit = BAD).

I would say for myself that the Blue PvP set is far inferior to the tier 1 epic set. I would never wear my blue PvP set into an instance where I was expected to heal. Blue PvP has less +healing, less intel (by an amazing amount) and no spirit. All the important to priest stats have been severly diminished on the blue PvP set.

My tier two set has +300 healing, 176 Intel and 127 spirit. My teir two PvP gear is +169 healing, 128 intel and 0 spirit. Again, PvP set < teir two epic set.


I'd be interested to hear why you believe your PvP set > Tier one epics.

 

[Yucke]

I'd be interested to hear why you believe your PvP set > Tier one epics.

Well, mana users and non mana user's needs for both, PvP and PvE differ by a large margin.

I can understand why you think your tier 1 is > pvp (tier 1). It's because as a mana user, having a lot of +int from gear is really important. Having a lot of spirit helps you last in long encounters and having +healing makes your heals more efficient. Your tier 1 set provides you with all those.

With your PvP set, I believe that you'll find a lot more +stamina on it as well as +damage instead of just +healing and a lot less +Spirit/Int. This is because in PvP, encounters don't last no where near as long as PvE fights. Thus you needs are different.

Lengthy mana pool+heal efficiency+regen from tier 1 is swapped for More health+^^ burst damage from +damage with your PvP set.

However, for melee classes, our needs are a bit different. I agree that my tier 1> my pvp set but not by much.

http://thottbot.com/?set=548 PvP

120 (+20) stamina
5% Crit
4% to hit
174 (+40) Attack power
0% dodge
0 resists

vs

http://thottbot.com/?set=204 NS

134 stamina
5% (plus ~6 from all the agi) Crit
2% to hit
239 Attack Power
12% dodge
34 fire resist
24 shadow resist

Difference:
+6 stamina
-6 crit
+2 to hit
-25 Attack power
-12 dodge
-34 fr
-24 sr.

NS better than PvP? Yes. Is it worth the upgrade? Possibly. For myself, no. The -6 to crit and -25 ap amounts to maybe -6, maybe -7% dps however the +2 to hit makes up for 2% of it. (1 crit=1 to hit= 30 attack power DPS wise).
The -12 dodge IMO is neglegible. In PvE, rogues shouldn't have aggro thus there's nothing to dodge. The primary source of damage rogues take in instances is from aoe which is not dodgeable.
PvP wise, dodge is useful to some extent against 2-3 classes. Warriors (yes they have overpower but would you rather eat an overpower every 6 seconds or mortal strike, hamstring, their white attacks AND over power?), Enhancement specc'd shammies however most will kite you around with shocks and totems, pallidins however once your stunned, your dodge % becomes 0 annddd other rogues.
Yes, the + resist will be nice to have in some PvE encounters but that's like respeccing just PvE. Is it worth getting a whole new 8 piece set just for 58 resists, +7% over dps?

PvE stats- agility, crit and more agility, anything else is just a bonus because our role in raids is dps, dps and more dps---sustained damage
PvP stats- stamina, attack power and crit which give burst damage---burst damage
Our energy is always regenerating at a set rate so spirit does not do anything for rogues (the hp regen from it is unoticeable). Our limiting factor is our stamina unlike casters which is both their mana and stamina.


I already have the PvP set so I have little incentive to collect the tier 1 set or obtain any piece of it. The helm is really nice however if I equipped it, it'd break the PvP set stamina bonus and I'll be leaving myself gimped.

This is why I would really like to see some Ony raids soon...need tier 2 helm =D please?

 

[Avesther]

Good arguements Yucke, and the +damage really helps a priest do damage. But, would you rather a priest with my set up who is able to pump out 1100+ heals every 1.4 seconds to keep you alive through 5 minutes of fighting or a priest doing 500 to 700 in damage every 2.5 to 5 seconds for 30 seconds?

I think the logical answer is seeing as rogue can get 400dps compared to my 160dps, you want the rogue alive. My healing averages 785HPS, and unless you have more then three on you, I can out heal most damage.

So, from a Form over Function view point, a priests function of healing in PvP is still better in Prophecy. I can out heal the damage that I am the target of in prophecy, but not in my blue PvP set. Because my blue PvP set blows when it comes to mana and regen, I have to choose, heal or damage. I run out of mana way to fast, and it takes way to long to regen. So even if I survive, I'm a sitting duck for the next 30 seconds while I have to drink.

The additional stamana I get from Blue PvP equates to about 200 may 300 health. Which is taking one additional hit from something that gives white damage. And the additional armor is about 300, which equates to the mitigation of 20 or so. So the actual PvP benefits from the PvP sets does not offset the loss of Mana, Regen or efficiency of heals that I give up.

 

[Yucke]

Well I guess it depends on the priest's role they want to play in PvP and their spec.

They can either be a support healer and heal his allies- go tier 1 or if they solo as a shadow priest and melt some face -go PvP.

You'll get the full benefits from the PvP set if you were specc'd shadow.

Fights in PvP usually don't last long enough for a priest to exhaust 7k mana+all their regen so the -spirit is not much of a loss PvP wise. Usually health is what gets depleted first...with that being said, 4-5k mana would suffice and more stamina would give a bit more time to fully utilize your 4-5k mana. Shadowform or Shadow weaving increases the +damage from the PvP set by uh...many %'s allowing for more efficient face meltage.

I agree, the +armor is nothing. Just toss up Inner Focus, that gives alloottt of armor.

Also, sure you can out heal damage. Even without prophecy however, taking stuns, interrupts and white attacks into account, you would be better off with more +stamina and 1sec off fear cd than more efficieny in healing.

^^ That's uh...looking at the sets from a pure PvP PoV.

back to your question

But, would you rather a priest with my set up who is able to pump out 1100+ heals every 1.4 seconds to keep you alive through 5 minutes of fighting or a priest doing 500 to 700 in damage every 2.5 to 5 seconds for 30 seconds?

I'd rather have you heal me instead of dps . Oh, drop a fear bomb occasionally...and PW:S please =D. =\ That's why shadow priests annoy me soo much...I'll be standing next them and with 3423 dots and they'll just ignore me and melt some face while i die...but they're soo fun to play-solo of course.

So I believe we can sum it up with

tier 1- mana longevity, healing efficiency (group)
PvP- Burst damage, survivability (solo)

BTW, if and when I get my priest to 60, can I go on raids as dps =D? (given that we have enough healers that raid).

Ony raid sooon pleaseee

 

[Quantum_Man]

Once I acquire enough +dmg/heal gear to make a difference, I will make a case for having a shadow priest in raids. When we are first learning an raid perhaps not right away, but I think the benefits of a raiding shadow priest should be utilized. It's the only class that can both DPS and heal at the same time via Vampiric Embrace. Put him in a group of rogues or some group that doesn't have aggro directly but does need the occasional heal due to the mobs/bosses AOE attacks. Their health will constantly be getting topped off, letting the other healers focus on MT/warriors. At the same time of course, the said Shadow Priest(SP) would be DPSing so mobs/bosses can go down a little faster which is always a good thing.

Additionally Warlocks will love the added 15% damage bonus from Shadow Weaving, further decreasing the time it takes to down mobs/bosses. And of course, if absolutely needed, the SP can drop shadow form and heal "normally" as required by the specific boss and/or mobs.

I would love to try this when we get MC on farm status.

 

[Azzie]

I usually mix and match damage and healing gear for pvp. For me, it ALWAYS depends on what I'm fighting.
This is the way i sort out how i fight different classes as a holy/ret pally:
Rogues? All-out dps.
Warriors? All-out dps.
Warlocks? Attrition war, full +mana/healing.
Mages? Switch back and forth...
Hunters? Attrition until hunter is oom, then throw on all-out dps.
Shamans? Attrition war, full +mana/healing.
Druids? Attrition war, partial +mana while moderate mana-efficient dps.

 

[Avesther]

Once I acquire enough +dmg/heal gear to make a difference, I will make a case for having a shadow priest in raids. When we are first learning an raid perhaps not right away, but I think the benefits of a raiding shadow priest should be utilized. It's the only class that can both DPS and heal at the same time via Vampiric Embrace. Put him in a group of rogues or some group that doesn't have aggro directly but does need the occasional heal due to the mobs/bosses AOE attacks. Their health will constantly be getting topped off, letting the other healers focus on MT/warriors. At the same time of course, the said Shadow Priest(SP) would be DPSing so mobs/bosses can go down a little faster which is always a good thing.

Additionally Warlocks will love the added 15% damage bonus from Shadow Weaving, further decreasing the time it takes to down mobs/bosses. And of course, if absolutely needed, the SP can drop shadow form and heal "normally" as required by the specific boss and/or mobs.

I would love to try this when we get MC on farm status.

You do realize that you'll have to make your case to me right? And that means you'll have to explain to me why you would be afforded this before I would afford it to myself.

 

[Quantum_Man]

I suppose whoever has more +dmg would get to do it. Since that would affect both vampiric embrace and DPS. But you have better +healing gear than me. =P

 

[Yucke]

I usually mix and match damage and healing gear for pvp. For me, it ALWAYS depends on what I'm fighting.
This is the way i sort out how i fight different classes as a holy/ret pally:
Rogues? All-out dps.
Warriors? All-out dps.
Warlocks? Attrition war, full +mana/healing.
Mages? Switch back and forth...
Hunters? Attrition until hunter is oom, then throw on all-out dps.
Shamans? Attrition war, full +mana/healing.
Druids? Attrition war, partial +mana while moderate mana-efficient dps.

Can't swap armor while in combat.

I go from daggers to swords if I'm lagging or if I'm bored.

Other than that, the only gear slots i swap around are my trinkets depending on who I'm about to attack.

Lock/Priest/Mage- PvP Trinket+Maelstrom
Everything else- Blackhand's Breadth+Maelstrom.

 

[Yucke]

You do realize that you'll have to make your case to me right? And that means you'll have to explain to me why you would be afforded this before I would afford it to myself.

If I can bring my shadowpriest along, it'd be like replacing my rogue (dps) with another dps...who can shield, dispel and melt faces =o

 

[Zazzy]

After a little more research, I can honestly say, in a study of the same 6 pieces of armor that both the pvp and dungeon/raid sets have (head, chest, legs, hands, shoulders, and feet), that the pvp set does have better stats for a hunter, mostly. For example, the pvp epic gear for hunter has 2485 armor, 175 agility(plus bonuses) 144 stam, 48 int. Better than raid 1 gear, however, the raid gear as +fire and shadow resistance and 31 spirit, where the pvp gear has none.

So, I'm still going to try to get as far up as i can in pvp rankings.

 

[CGamer]

I thought I'd get in on this conversation as I have two level 60 characters with different needs a priest & a mage...Case 1

Alhana - Level 60 Human Priest - Raiding Typical Role
Current Max Heal Setup
+440 Healing - Drawbacks I loose +spirit & +mana regen & +intell, which is bad news in long fights.

My typical balanced combo - +320 heal, +300 spirit, +300intell, 32mana per 5secs. I don't currently have all my tier 1 set.

For her to use either of the PvP sets for raiding would be ridiculous as I would loose +spirit, mana regen & +healing. However lets look at Case 2....Gnimish

Gnimish - Level 60 Gnome Mage - PvP Typical Role
He currently has about 3k life/6k mana, +200 spell damage. For him the PvP sets would be on par with the Tier 1&2 mage sets.

Example 1: Lieutenant Commander's PvP Set vs. Arcanist Set
Total's
Total Set
+damage = 134
+4% crit with spells
+1% chance to hit
285 more damage absorbed by mana shield

Total
Armor 778
Stamina 116
Intellect 83
Spirit 20

Arcanist Regalia
+damage = 146
+2% chance to get a critical strike with spells
+1% chance to hit with spells
+11 mana/5s
Decreases the magical resistances of your spell targets by 10.
Decreases the threat generated by your spells by 15%.
Armor 584
Stamina 109
Intellect 160
Spirit 72
Fire 37
Shadow 27

There are some plus & minuses for each set, also take into consideration the PvP set has 2 less pieces the the Tier 1 Raid set. Would it be feasible for a mage to run upper instances in a pvp set...I'd say definitely YES. Would I use the Priest PvP set in Molten Core over my Tier 1 set definitely...NO.

In some cases Depending on the class the PvP sets would be on par or greater in some ways then the Raid set. Ultimately though each set has it's pluses & minuses.

My dream for Alhana is her full Tier 2 set at least...my dream for Gnimish is the full Field Marshal Set with a few extras, the Ironbark staff from AB, Sageclaw from AB, the caster ring from AV & one of the off-hands from AV. One day all my dreams wil come true.....