WoW in space

Cryøgenic

Cryøgenic

New Member
I'm so tired of hearing that from people that don't know anything about TOR. I'm not lucky enough to be in the beta but I have been reading and watching everything I can find about TOR to try and get an idea of the direction Bioware is taking it. I noticed something interesting, to me at least, the other day.

When I put together all the bits of scattered info The Old Republic looks less like a "WoW clone" and more and more like KOTOR. Here are some of the things I think are similar.

Fully voiced cinematic quests and story: both KOTOR and TOR (hurray for no more generic text windows)

Companion Characters: quite a few in KOTOR to choose from with different abilities for security and demolitions and buffs or healing, two taken at a time, makes comments during some quest dialogue, will react positively or negatively to how you talk to them: TOR has different roles for companion characters, tank, dps, support but only taken one at a time, affection system of some sort based on your actions and possible romance options.

Crew skills: In KOTOR you could get your Wookie crewman to make grenades for you and I think the droid could make stuff for you as well: TOR has an extensive crafting system and mission system to keep your crew busy.

Space Combat: when you first steal the Ebon Hawk in KOTOR and escape the planet you must shoot down the pursuing fighters with the Hawk's turret: In TOR there will be space battles you pilot through while traveling from planet to planet.

It seems to me that TOR isn't really copying WoW but improving on a game released previously, I think before WoW even, and making it an MMO. I'm sure there are some things they have followed WoW's lead on but that's how thing keep improving. Taking what works and building on it is a good plan.

I could be completely wrong about all this tho and they could be just making a WoW clone with cheddar monks in it.
 
This is all very true, and quite frankly when Bioware starting making this, I'm sure they followed WoW to make sure their game is as completely different as possible. Which seems to be the reason why it might have taken so long? I think this game is made for the Star Wars fans who have longed to have an MMO where SWG failed miserably and also cater to those who simply want to try a different MMO. Although I did play SWG for quite awhile when it first came out, just simply for that Star Wars feel of a game, but at the same time WoW was out and so I started to play WoW and got hooked on it for a long time. But then I stopped playing after the last expansion. I really hope this game succeeds where SWG failed and is just as fun as WoW was for me... But really like any other game, what makes it really successful is the replay value of it. I could care less about graphics, sounds, voice...etc. If you can combine all those to make it have an awesome replay value, then I'm sure I'll be a good paying customer for a very long time. :D
 
That would be so awesome if it was like that. KOTOR was fantastic and turning that into MMO would be pure win.
 
I would say TOR looks like it will be a cross between WoW and Bioware's single player RPGs like Mass Effect and KOTOR. The dialogue system looks like it is closest to Mass Effect's with the conversation wheel and such, the universe and space ship and all that will fit pretty closely with what you saw in KOTOR, and the combat style will be fairly typical of an MMO - such as WoW. That's obviously a simplification of what we'll see in TOR, but that at least seems close to what I'd expect from it.

And that's pretty much what I was hoping for, so that sounds fine by me. :)
 
Honestly, I never came across a better MMO combat style than WoW, the only exception to that will hopefully be GW2. The mechanics for their combat look simply amazing, and I can't wait to try it out. As for SWTOR, i really wont mind it feeling a bit like WoW, cus WoW was epic! (until craptivision took over) For the most part though it seems that questing will feel nothing like wow, nor crafting, nor gathering, nor FREAKIN AWESOME SPACE SHIP BATTLES! That is all.
 
Well it is more or less supposed to be the sequel to the KOTOR games. Like a KOTOR 3 through 6 based on the amount of content.

WOW in space is just a fun way to put it and is only a testament to the fact that its hype at the very least has elevated it to the point of noticeable competition with WOW, though bioware has made a point to communicate that WOW users are not their primary target. But in regards to similarities, it would just be dumb business to not emulate at least a few things from the most successful MMORPG to date.
 
Here is a recent review that talks heavily about wow in space.
http://tap-repeatedly.com/2011/10/05/impressions-star-wars-the-old-republic/
Granted the guy only played for an hour, but his opinions were similar to what I felt after being in beta a few months now.

I think a big part is where the individual player is at in their expectations. Like epik, there are many that still really enjoy wow. Also there are others that think the mmo genre has gone stale thanks to wow and it's clones.
 
ewoksrule said:
Here is a recent review that talks heavily about wow in space.
http://tap-repeatedly.com/2011/10/05/impressions-star-wars-the-old-republic/
Granted the guy only played for an hour, but his opinions were similar to what I felt after being in beta a few months now.

I think a big part is where the individual player is at in their expectations. Like epik, there are many that still really enjoy wow. Also there are others that think the mmo genre has gone stale thanks to wow and it's clones.
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I am getting tired of WoW, but it isn't the combat that makes the biggest difference to me. If the combat mechanics are all you care about, then I don't see any MMOs coming that will impress you if WoW doesn't. Guild Wars 2 does look like it has a few elements with potential, but I still haven't seen anything from it that really makes it look that good to me. As I've said before, maybe that's just because I was so thoroughly unimpressed with the first Guild Wars.
 
GW1 and GW2 are completely different games from the ground up. Other then lore I would not use 1 to evaluate 2 at all. GW1 was not really an MMO in the typical sense.

Its alot more then the combat that is stale. Its the kill quests, the exclamation over the head of the quest giver, the quest hubs, the holy trinity, the best content locked behind raid instances, and lots more.

I care about MMOS from top to bottom, not just the combat. I have been playing MMOs for over 10 years strong now. Its my favorite genre and the only one I care about. I am very impressed with RIFT which is a wow clone for the most part. Both Firefall and GW2 are being produced by original blizzard developers. Both of them have made multiple comments on this topic and are facing their games to innovate and push the genre forward. I like how the Firefall dev calls it the "Circle of suck"

here is some interesting quotes on the topic from these guys and blizzard themselves in regards to the new Titan project.



__________________________________________________ _______________________

Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, Guild Wars 2

Jeff Strain is a game programmer and one of the three founders of ArenaNet. He served ArenaNet and NCsoft as the leader of the Art and Production teams and President of Product Development respectively. He was previously the lead programmer of Blizzard's MMORPG World of Warcraft; he also created the StarCraft campaign editor and worked on Diablo and Warcraft III.

http://www.guildwars.com/events/trad...7/gcspeech.php

Quote:
I personally have heard numerous designers and producers working on unreleased MMO projects describe their game in these terms: "It's like WoW, but..." I just shake my head when I hear this, because the team that is best poised to deliver a successful game that is an evolution of WoW is... well, the WoW team. They've got their thing, and they're good at it. Let's all carve out our own thing, and be the best at it. Truly great games are made by passionate teams who are on fire with the notion of changing the industry. If you are aiming at a competitor rather than aiming to make something fresh and innovative, you've lost.

Don't believe that there is some magic design element that you will add to your MMO that will allow you to steal all of WoW's subscription customers. If you find yourself saying, "It's like WoW, but...," you're in trouble. To reiterate an earlier point – go do your own thing, and let them do theirs.

I'll end by paraphrasing the famous Japanese game designer, Masaya Matsuura: Go forth, and do weird and difficult things! Thank you.
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__________________________________________________ _______________________

Mark Kern, founder of Red 5 Studios, Firefall

Mark E. Kern is best known for being Team lead on the Massively Multiplayer Online game World of Warcraft and a founder of Red 5 Studios. He has previously worked on Starcraft, Diablo 2, Warcraft 3

http://www.vg247.com/2011/10/06/fire...suck%E2%80%9D/

Quote:
“We’ve got to break out of the mold,” he said. “If I see another action MMO combat game with exclamation points over quest givers, I’m going to commit seppuku! We’re pouring so much money down a very stale formula. It’s an illusion to say that ‘Oh, that’s safety’. It used to be safety but it’s not anymore.

“Gamers are ready to try different things. It’s time to take risks and I’m really looking towards the independents to try that. I want to see the Notch of MMOs. Please don’t spend $200 million on another WoW clone because it just doesn’t do anybody any favours. <- did he just take a jab at SWTOR here?
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__________________________________________________ _______________________

Mike Morhaime, founder of Blizzard Entertainment, World of Warcraft

Michael "Mike" Morhaime (born 1966) is the president and a co-founder of Blizzard Entertainment (originally founded in 1991 as Silicon & Synapse), a video game developer located in Irvine, California, currently owned by Activision Blizzard.

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2...zard-title.ars

Quote:
"Without giving away any details, we have some of our most experienced MMO developers, people who spent years working on the World of WarCraft team, working on this project," Morhaime said. "We're really trying to leverage all the lessons we learned through the years. Some of which we were able to address in World of WarCraft and others that maybe because of the design decisions we've made, you just can't address. So we're kind of taking a step back with all that knowledge to make something that's completely new and fresh. We're not trying to make a WoW sequel." In fact, he explained that the two titles will co-exist in the future.

"To break the mold, sometimes you have to start over," Morhaime told the audience.
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__________________________________________________ _______________________

And then we have Bioware's founder who disagrees with them all.

Greg Zeschuk, founder of Bioware, Star Wars: The Old Republic

Dr. Gregory P. Zeschuk is a VP and Group Creative Officer at BioWare Corp. and Electronic Arts. He co-founded BioWare in 1995. Ray and Greg were the Co-Executive Producers on Shattered Steel, the Baldur's Gate series (PC), MDK2, MDK2: Armageddon, the Neverwinter Nights series, Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic (Xbox and PC), Jade Empire, the Mass Effect series and the Dragon Age series.

http://www.vg247.com/2011/02/10/biow...mmo-standards/

Quote:
“It is a touchstone,” Zeschuk said of WoW, according to GamesIndustry. “It has established standards, it’s established how you play an MMO.

“Every MMO that comes out, I play and look at it. And if they break any of the WoW rules, in my book that’s pretty dumb.

“If you have established standards, WoW established them.”

After commenting that triple-A development is still a viable approach to gaming, Zeschuk conceded that The Old Republic is not expected to be a WoW-killer.

“It’s not like we’re actually going out there to beat anyone, we’re going out to place,” he said. “The audience will tell us if we have a place.”
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__________________________________________________ _______________________
 
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What the Lewis B article seems to fail to realize is this...

Games are being dumbed down to appeal to the masses. Fast paced combat, especially in PVE situations, ends up leaving less capable players in the dust, and too frustrated to keep playing. The WOW formula works so well because they've learned to have low expectations of their players, and if you want them to commit to paying each month to come back, then you want as many people as possible to feel as though they are progressing and receiving that sense of satisfaction to keep pressing forward.

The reason I PVP so much is because that's the arena I feel is most skill-based and fast paced.

And... I'm out of time so... that's all I have to say about that for now!
 
sayhellotolane said:
What the Lewis B article seems to fail to realize is this...

Games are being dumbed down to appeal to the masses. Fast paced combat, especially in PVE situations, ends up leaving less capable players in the dust, and too frustrated to keep playing. The WOW formula works so well because they've learned to have low expectations of their players, and if you want them to commit to paying each month to come back, then you want as many people as possible to feel as though they are progressing and receiving that sense of satisfaction to keep pressing forward.
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And that's one reason I think that the focus on story in TOR gives it a great shot at being a huge success. Story is something that anyone can appreciate - regardless of how good they are at the game or how hard they want it to be.

Another point I saw brought up that is really good is this: How different do you really want the game to be? I personally am pretty happy with the way WoW works in most areas, and changing it up too much really just isn't that appealing to me. I simply don't have the time or money or even the desire to keep up if every new game has to be completely different from the other games in its genre. I LIKE the familiarity that TOR brings to the table.

What I've seen from GW2 has looked entertaining, but honestly I think it will have the same problem in the end that people are complaining about in WoW - after a while it all starts feeling the same. This is true of every single video game that I've ever played. The longer you play a single game, the more repetitive it gets. The point that I really want to see addressed by developers is not "Can you make the initial feel of the game seem unique?" but "Can you disguise the repetition of this gameplay well enough that I can keep playing and replaying your game for months or years?" I would say that TOR looks like it will answer the second question with a yes (due to the storylines/choices available), and that's what matters to me.

EDIT: Oh, and one thing I'd throw in here is a reminder that when you're talking to me you're talking to someone that played through KOTOR at least 20 times (I can't even count how many times anymore) simply because I wanted to find every single different way that you could go through the story in that game. The combat in that game was REALLY repetitive, but that wasn't the important thing to me. I could go on and on about obscure things that you can have happen if you go through that game different ways - and I've found that same thing to be true about Bioware's other RPGs. THAT is the element I look forward to most in TOR. Not only will I have the MMO elements of raiding and fellowship that I got from WoW, but I'll also have all the subtleties of a Bioware RPG. That to me sounds awesome. The gameplay mechanics will have to be horrible to ruin that (and they're not).
 
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Grimbeorn said:
And that's one reason I think that the focus on story in TOR gives it a great shot at being a huge success. Story is something that anyone can appreciate - regardless of how good they are at the game or how hard they want it to be.

Another point I saw brought up that is really good is this: How different do you really want the game to be? I personally am pretty happy with the way WoW works in most areas, and changing it up too much really just isn't that appealing to me. I simply don't have the time or money or even the desire to keep up if every new game has to be completely different from the other games in its genre. I LIKE the familiarity that TOR brings to the table.
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I think you are going to be pleased with the way TOR plays then.

There are standard conventions now in the MMO genre that a developer cannot deviate from if they want their game to be successful, and WoW, for better or worse, popularized most of them. Players expect it now, and the Star Wars universe and lore will only get you so far.
 
Also... Who doesn't like starting a game when its fresh off the shelves?

Did anyone play WoW or Everquest on the day it released? I did for both and MMO's are like 10x more fun the first three months when everything is new and you don't feel behind and nobody is trying to rush through. Groups are super easy to find, pvp is more fun as nobody knows all the tricks yet, its great.

And even better for me now than in the past, I'll be playing with a specific intent to share the gospel however I can to a generally unreached people group. (considering how many people substitutes normal social interactions with MMOs)
 
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