Tips on creating a successful guild?

R

Reziun

New Member
Hey everyone! I was wondering if you all had tips on creating a strong World of Warcraft guild, I've tried advertising on the Lightning's Blade (WoW-US) servers, and in-game but, I definitely get a lot of slack or comments against me and I just ignore 90% of them.

But how did many of you create successful Christian guilds, whether it be in WoW or in another game?

Thanks!
-Rez
 
This is probably not what you're looking for, but my question in this instance is always this:
Why do you want to create a guild?

My thinking in this is that there are already a lot of Christian guilds out there, and it's a lot easier just to join them (I should add I don't play WoW, so I'm advocating for one of them). It's supposed to be about fellowship, after all. Even if you could bring 10 people into your guild, that is 10 that could've been added to a larger fellowship (not that I'm saying numbers are everything, mind you). Most of the time people are starting guilds simply because they want to run them and be in charge. That's all fine and dandy, except I believe things are a bit different when Christianity is involved.

Now, of course, if you have prayerfully seeked God and he told you to start a guild, then by all means. But if God tells you to start something, you don't need anyone to tell you how to make it successful. God will do that! If you prayerfully seek God and this isn't a God-led ministry, I'd advise against it, and even go so far as to say it will never have any success. Even if you achieve numbers, if it's not God-led, it's not Christian.

I hope that doesn't come off the wrong way! :) I'm not trying to say what is or isn't in your heart or motivations. I'm simply saying the question you asked brings up a catch-22. Hope this helps.

"Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make your paths straight." (Prov 3:5-6)
 
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To throw some monkey wrenches in, TF (the guild I'm in) seems fairly "successful," and we've never advertised. Simply, we started up 5 years ago with a handful of friends, a website (which we hardly update,) and a commitment to decent, fair, and skilled play. We left the advertising largely in God's hands.

About a year in, we also joined an inter-guild alliance (back when those things worked,) and we made no bones about the fact that we were Christians. While we have gained some members through that alliance, I don't believe that the SGA was our primary "recruiting zone" -- especially since recruitment was banned between SGA guilds.

All in all, I believe our growth and success came from God. We haven't ever had a recruitment drive, but our guild keeps hitting player cap, 5 years later.

I would say, trust God for you growth. But also make a website so people can google you.
 
Which guild is "TF"?

I run with Narrow Path on Thunderhorn...they are also frequently hitting cap.

There are a few pretty big Christian WoW guilds out there, including Redeemed on Stonemaul.

I am not sure there are as many large Christian Horde guilds though. Most active Christian guilds that I have seen are primarily Alliance. The OP might consider creating a Christian Horde guild as it seems that faction may need a Christian hub for fellowship?

I tend to gravitate toward the larger guilds myself because my daughter plays as well, and a larger guild tends to have more opportunities for her to fellowship throughout the day. Nothing against small guilds and start ups at all. Just a personal preference from a Dad.
 
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Good points raised here.
Not much I can add, just sharing some experience on guild leader life. While I don't lead any guilds anymore and have instead taken up leadership positions in several others, here's what I learn't from 3 years of guild leadership in a real game and several years of casual game playing in the sandpit, king of the playground and all that years I regret spent on maple<inserts a slew of vulgarities>story. Back when I didn't know better games were out there and that was what my IRL friends were fooled into playing.

1-Guild leaders get a lot of pain.
>From people who are not prepared to do anything themselves, but want the impossible. Demanding promotions, and quitting if they don't get it. The officer that hasn't been doing anything for months and QQs when he's demoted.

2-Everyone expects to be treated and has the right to be treated as equals.
>I was perceived as domineering. While not really true as I was doing what's for the greater good of my guild, and true at the same time as no one else was prepared to stand up and fight, it was against a threat they did not acknowledge, and offended half the guild when I insisted on pushing ahead with the activity test mail system to force people to reply to a mail sent round every month. Many just protested by not doing anything or leaving.

3-You gotta LOOK like you're working for something.
Everyone needs a vision. Not just oh we're gona hang out and do a few dungeons when we feel like it. Building a nation from the ground up. Inspire your folks :D

4-Democratic ideals
Everyone likes to have their say. Even if they don't have anything to say. People like to feel valued, from day one they join the roster. I get n00bs who ask for things that are no way possible on the guild's current position, but entertain them nonetheless. While it does not necessarily mean they can replace you any second, having a semi democratic structure such as voting in officers, voting for non impromptu decisions such as which guild we're gonna raid the hell out of next, that's what keeps people feeling valued and not part of a one man show.

5-Guild activities
Goes without saying. A guild that plays together stays together.

6-Don't trust anyone too much.
Backstab backstab backstab. Play EVE for a week. You will understand.
Be wary of those that want too much responsibility or rise too fast. It may even be a good idea if you suspect things are turning foul to place a second character in the guild and ensure that alt rises in rank fast. Good to hear the rumors going around. Spying your own guild. Frowned upon, not very nice, but necessary sometimes.

7-Don't just let anyone in.
Spies. Looters. Ninjas. Kicking people out, even some who seem isolated and insignificant, can trigger fears and talking in your main member base. Especially those who feel insecure. They may even leave beforehand, and seeing someone get kicked out triggers the rest to start looking for a new guild as a 'back up plan', the new guild may lure them into QUITTING to join them.

8-Don't stress, chill :D
You have officers. Don't stress on doing everything all by yourself. I freaked myself out when I couldn't get good officers. Till I found a really good one. Who then decided to run his own guild, took most of the people he recruited, and left.

9-(not applicable to you) check game turnover.
You're playing WoW. Don't stress about this one.
However it is hard to maintain a guild when the game is dying. I decided to throw in the towel after 2 years and just let the guild run itself after seeing waves of new recruits filling the same 50, then 25 slots. Now there are hardly 25 people logged in at any one time in game.

10-Lastly, know when to move on.
I've learn't a lot from 2 years of failures in leadership. While I no longer have the time to lead a guild full time, I'm much more comfortable in my current leadership roles, and know personally how to avoid many pitfalls.
However, one thing even more important I have learnt, know when to quit. If the first few 'guild resurrection' recruitment waves don't work, perhaps it is time to move on. To a different game even.


Thanks for readin, if you feel you can handle it, GET OUT THERE AND RECRUIT! It is certainly a good experience I believe each one of us should have. *slap on back, here's your sword of +100000000 pwnage, cut down everything that stands in your way*

Remember, if all else fails, it may be easier to join an established guild and after some time proving you're worthy, request some leadership roles, small to begin with. Careful, as spies are those that want to rise too fast. Leaders are scared of that. See point 7. I've been booted for 'being a spy' several times though I wasn't. After my own experience in leadership, I know how not to tick off guild leaders so much now.

Lastly, a word of encouragement. You never know till you try, good luck, if you intend to form a CHRISTIAN guild, you will probably be with a nicer bunch, though your spy problem may get out of hand. Never lead one of those myself, or been in one, swear way too much in battle. My first try in ToJ and I'm still struggling. The concept of keeping the chat window closed when I'm bored and want to throw around some not so nice remarks seems to foreign to me.
Which brings us to point 11 - anger management.
Don't lose your cool in guild chat. Anywhere BUT guild chat.
 
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Reziun said:
Hey everyone! I was wondering if you all had tips on creating a strong World of Warcraft guild, I've tried advertising on the Lightning's Blade (WoW-US) servers, and in-game but, I definitely get a lot of slack or comments against me and I just ignore 90% of them.

But how did many of you create successful Christian guilds, whether it be in WoW or in another game?

Thanks!
-Rez
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Keep it a relaxed environment. The natural tendency for any leader is to make rules; I suggest that you refrain from that. Keep it real, keep it personal, and deal with matters as they come up, and on a case by case basis.

In recruiting, stay casual. Mention your guild in passing, like 'oh hey, by the way..'. I used to do this as I was finishing instances and group quests, and it worked quite well. You're more likely to get a response from people if you don't act like a car salesman.

Understand that you'll spend most of your time out of the game (or on the 2nd monitor). Initially, don't devote more time to gaming than to managing and setting up the guild creation process.

Treat your guild like a service. Continually ask yourself what you can do and can provide for your members. Tools like VOIP, forums, and website are all really great at helping new members ease into the experience, and it helps create a great community. Work really hard for your members, but also understand that you're taking a big risk and it's possible it may not reward you as quickly as you like.

As you start gaining members you'll realize that they're all unique; some personalities will clash, and some will have special needs or emotional issues. Welcome them, and pray for them, and let them know you're praying for them. It means a lot. Others will have more worldly or relational issues, like they're going through a divorce or having financial troubles. Be prepared to deal with that, and provide for them as God allows you (and you should strive to provide for them).

Take lots of notes. Step away from the game when you need to just to reflect and organize your thoughts.

Communicate well with your members. Take great effort to speak to them. As a Christian community, I think it's so important to reach out to each person occasionally and spend time with them. Even when you need to spend time away from the group at large, you should express that in a meaningful, genuine way to those concerned, and then go ahead and step away. Keep those you care about in the loop.

My 2 cents.

God bless,
 
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When I first saw this thread, I had intended to say something to the effect of, "If God does not bless your endeavor, it is doomed regardless. Spend time in prayer and make certain you feel His call to start a Christian guild before striking out." Then RyanB and Neirai beat me to it, so all I can do is re-phrase and repeat.

I can't say much about starting a new Christian guild from scratch. As President of Tribe of Judah, I pull from existing resources to help other staff members establish new guilds backed by the Tribe of Judah name, staff, and experience. If I was just now arriving on the Christian gaming scene, I don't know if I'd have the inclination to start a new clan or guild. (Then again, I recently turned 30; I started ToJ when I was 19. Quite a bit has changed in 11 years.)

My own experience in establishing Tribe of Judah might provide some insight, but the context was wildly different. In May 1999, there was, to my knowledge, no existing Christian gaming community. (I later discovered that at least one Christian clan pre-dated ToJ.) One of the most helpful things I did in ToJ's early days was leave room for growth: ToJ started as a StarCraft clan, but the name and structure was flexible enough to later add chapters for additional games. I started ToJ thinking, "If this doesn't work, I'll close up shop, but I'll at least know I tried. If it does work, I need to leave room to expand." It was a simple idea but it's served ToJ well.

I'll look through some of my old posts and letters I've shared with other leaders in the Christian gaming community and re-post those thoughts in a separate reply.

In immediate reply to the flak you're catching on the WoW forums: I learned in Tribe of Judah's early days to include an alternate method (outside the forums where I was posting) for those interested in joining ToJ to contact me or apply for membership in my recruiting post. (This is where a web site comes in very handy.) After posting the recruiting call, I left the thread and didn't come back. After a while, I had already seen the patterns of inane replies ("lol Jesus," "I'm an atheist/agnostic/Jew, can I join?" or variation, reference to Jeebus, reference to Salem Witch Trials or Crusades, "Religion is the opiate of the masses," etc.) start repeating.

I learned an important lesson from that tactic: Trolls are lazy. People interested in joining will click the link or send the e-mail or take the next step to contact you and learn more about the guild. If trolls have to do something more than click reply, type out their vitriol, and click another button, they're not going to bother.

On a lighter note, I recommend keeping a copy of this image on your hard drive at all times to help keep perspective:



EDIT: Credit for the image goes to artist Omar Noory.

Haters will indeed hate. But your recruiting post is not addressed to them. Your post is meant to reach other Christian gamers. Don't get sidetracked; there are only so many hours in a day and time is too valuable to spend it arguing with people who show no interest in gainful discussion.

In short: Don't feed the trolls. Responding politely feeds them with attention. Responding angrily reflects poorly on you and on all Christian gamers. The wisest course is to ignore them completely. Be ready to speak with people legitimately interested in Christianity, but learn to avoid people who are blinded by hate.
 
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Tek7 said:
I'll look through some of my old posts and letters I've shared with other leaders in the Christian gaming community and re-post those thoughts in a separate reply.
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As promised, here are a few excerpts from letters I've written to other leaders in Christian gaming:
I'll add that staff communication is a necessity as you grow and branch out. Make certain you communicate regularly with your staff and stay informed on what problems and opportunities they're facing and what they may need to fulfill their assigned responsibilities.
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In our community, games are merely tools--means to an end. The fellowship and our common faith is what brings us together. I understand a common faith isn't necessary to hold a multi-game community together, but it certainly has helped in providing a foundation of absolutes on which everyone can agree.
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When it comes to recruiting, many of our new members learn about our existing chapters by word of mouth, but we do post recruiting calls to public forums when we're starting a new chapter or guild or when we're trying to increase our numbers. Sometimes you'll have more members than you expected. Other times, it may feel like pulling teeth to try to bring new people in.

Keep in mind that different chapters will be different sizes. Size is, in and of itself, neither good nor bad. Smaller chapters can provide that feeling of camaraderie that larger chapters can't. Larger chapters will be able to offer more gameplay options than smaller chapters.

[...]

Put another way: Don't be disappointed if you start a new endeavor and numbers are low. It's better to have 10 people who play regularly and enjoy each other's company than a hundred that are always at each other's throats.
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Even with all those efforts, though, it can be difficult to bring people together. Ultimately, you have to understand (not just know) that the community will only develop so far as the members will invest their time and effort. Consider it the gaming group equivalent of the adage, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink."

It's also important to understand that games are only relevant enough to sustain an active gaming group for a limited time. I suppose that would be a variation on the saying, "We all start dying the moment we're born." You'll want to make sure your group is set up so you can quickly build up and disband groups for various types of games. You'll learn with practice and streamline the process over time, but there will be some growing pains.
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And here are some clips from the other letter I was thinking of:
Tek7 said:
I can offer a few tried and tested tips, though:

Remain transparent. Some matters must, of course, be handled privately, but operate "out in the open" as often as possible.

[...]

Don't repress your frustration; deal with it. Leadership can be frustrating. Even Jesus had to get away from the crowds now and then. Sometimes the rapid-fire nature of a leadership role makes it difficult to get away, but it's almost always better to step away when you start to feel angry and then return when you're calm.

Express frustration using trusted private communication only. Everything you type on the Internet may come back to haunt you. If you find yourself having to vent about a particular member or situation, make certain you do so using a trust private communication method.

[...]

"Haters gonna hate." There's a reason Paul included the phrase "so far as you are able" when he admonished Christians to "live at peace with everyone." While most of the resistance we face as leaders in a Christian gaming community comes from outside, the most difficult resistance to deal with is internal. When it's outside, we can simply kick, ban, and otherwise deny admission. When it's inside, well, it can be quite troublesome.

Ultimately, we are here to serve the Lord. The game and the guild are just a means to His end. If he wants the guild to survive, it will. He'll make a way. If He doesn't want it to continue, it won't. That, of course, doesn't relieve us of our responsibilities, but it does help relieve the, "If I don't do this, it just isn't going to get done; everyone is depending on me" burden. I learned a long time ago that some things just weren't going to happen in my time or how I wanted. It's still a difficult lesson to take to heart, but easier after I've seen God carry Tribe of Judah through 11 years.
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Thank you everyone :D

After much debate and thought into, I've decided unfortunately not to continue with the Guild. :(

While I would love to see it, I cannot commit the necessary time to it, and there are already great Christian guilds on WoW out there
(Although a Horde PVP focused (BG's, Arena, WG) guild would be sweet :) )

I really do appreciate all the advice! and if sometime in the future I feel that God is calling me to start another guild on a game I will definitely keep all the information in mind!

I thank you for such a great community! As well as hope to stick around, if anyone needs a fairly decent pvping horde holy pally, let me know :D

-Reziun
 
Never mind that last post, I jumped to early and I know I probably look like a fool but thats alright!

I am going to continue with the Guild, and just because I find it hard getting members right now or that I get a lot of flak for it doesn't mean I'll stop.

If I feel this is what I should be doing right now than nothing should stop me ^_^

So Arms of Grace isn't done yet, we've just really begun :O
 
I think a PvP guild would be easier to operate than a PvE guild in World of Warcraft because you aren't restricted by dungeon lock-outs and resets, etc. You can really PVP anytime you want.

From what I've learned from my various roles in guild leadership I have two basic things you must do...

1) Establish a vision for the guild. People need to know what the guild's purpose is and where the leadership want it to be in the future. If you want a PvP guild and you have a good number of people in the guild who want to PvE... they probably wont be very happy with PvP and may leave.

2) Know the people in your guild. You must know their needs and wants. If their needs and wants aren't congruent with the guilds needs and wants, then people will not be happy.

(Sorry if I repeated anyone, I didn't read all of the responses first.)
 
I'd like to spend a few moments here interacting with and arguing against a few things silverleaf said -- but hopefully in a spirit of information exchange, not superiority.

Democracy vs Fascism. Sort of.
silverleaf said:
4-Democratic ideals
Everyone likes to have their say. Even if they don't have anything to say. People like to feel valued, from day one they join the roster. I get n00bs who ask for things that are no way possible on the guild's current position, but entertain them nonetheless. While it does not necessarily mean they can replace you any second, having a semi democratic structure such as voting in officers, voting for non impromptu decisions such as which guild we're gonna raid the hell out of next, that's what keeps people feeling valued and not part of a one man show.
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I know this is going to sound controversial, but democracy in a guild isn't that great of an idea.

Democracy is founded on the idea that when you have enough people, there is no way to get them all to agree; also, that when you have enough power and enough people, it is evil to force minorities to do what majorities want. But, in a guild, your leadership needs to have cohesion. Which means democracy might be a bad thing. Also, nobody is forcing your guild members to stay in the guild -- so if they don't like to do what you want, then they can or should leave.

Let me clarify:
I am an officer in the Forgiven, have been for about four and a half years. The Forgiven runs on, for a lack of a better term, a small-f fascist system. Our guild mistress makes the rules, and the officers advise her and uphold the rules she makes. The rest of the guild has little effect on the rules.

I am also a council member in Terenas's Alliance Small Guilds Association, and I have been for about four years. The SGA runs on a small-d democratic system. The council members discuss rules, vote on them, and determine how to enforce them. The rest of the SGA can ask their representatives to bring up issues and how to vote on them.

Frankly, the Forgiven has a lot better cohesion than the SGA. And there is a simple reason for it: at the end of the day, every officer in the Forgiven must be agreed. We don't have a choice. So, if there is a hot-button issue in the guild that we are divided on, we need to come to a conclusion that works. We can't just sit on it or stew.

By contrast, in the SGA, there are council members who will simply throw monkey wrenches into conflicts for fun. Or they will turn easy issues into conflicts. Or they will spend upwards of 3 years stewing because a vote went against them and will sow dissent because they can. This is bad. This is because, in a democratic system, a dissenter may stay a dissenter, because it is their right.

In a small-f fascist system, a dissenter may resign, or may come to an agreement. It's more or less their job.

I would strongly advise you to surround yourself with trustworthy officers, and make them get along. If you feel that you are the one who should be leading the guild, make sure you have the last word on decisions.

Guild activities
5-Guild activities
Goes without saying. A guild that plays together stays together.
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The statement "a guild that plays together stays together" is certainly true. I think we've lost more players to playing with other people than any other cause ;).

As you get a lot bigger, however, you will find that creating guild activities becomes harder and harder, as your leadership probably will include people who can't spend 100% of their time catering to the entertainment needs of your guild.

Your best bet is to stick with the activities that naturally include in the game (raiding, pvp, arena, world events) instead of creating your own. PvP is a good bet since it doesn't contain lockouts or player caps.

In cataclysm, Blizzard will be including the option to PVP against your friends -- which may be a larger aspect.

As it is, The Forgiven doesn't build events much anymore, as we don't charge our players money to pay the people who would have to make event coordinating their new fulltime job.
 
Neirai the Forgiven said:
I know this is going to sound controversial, but democracy in a guild isn't that great of an idea.
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QFT.

Democracies may work well enough in some situations, but even America isn't a "pure" democracy. (One could argue that all governments are oligarchies--rule by merchants--at their core, but that's a topic for a separate thread.)

And democracy simply isn't a viable option with a staff composed entirely of volunteers. If members who may have joined yesterday get the same amount of influence as a staff member who's served for a year, that staff member is, understandably, going to tire of the situation and resign.

There are only so many hours in a day. Staff members don't want to spend the bulk of that time working to help others understand and agree with their decisions. That's why a clear and properly enforced chain of command is vital to the stability and longevity of any organization. Distance (members living in different cities around the world), time-shifting (members living in various time zones), and a lack of financial incentive (all staff members are unpaid volunteers) makes that clear chain of command even more vital to the group's survival.

I can't speak for other gaming groups, but Tribe of Judah operates on a simple principle: The people who do the work decide the course of the organization (within reason, of course; even those who invest the most time wouldn't be allowed to steer the organization in a direction contrary to Scripture). This gives members incentive to join staff while ensuring important decisions are made by informed members invested in the group's continued success.

When I think of democracy, I think of mass media manipulating the opinion of a largely (often happily) uninformed public and politicians funded by interests that often run counter to the health and well-being of most citizens. It may very well be the least of all evils as far as government is concerned, but it doesn't scale down very well--especially not when the people doing the work that keeps the organization running do said work for no pay.

Just so there is no room for misunderstanding, let me say it clearly: I love my country. I love the United States of America. I think we have one of the best forms, if not THE best form, of government on the planet. But even the best form of government can not simply do away with human nature or deny the power of money. I thank God I am able to vote, attend church services without having to fear for my life, and choose how to spend the majority of the money I make. Yes, the US has its issues, but it's still a great nation.

Back to the original topic: There are times when an informal vote is in order, but not on crucial matters (for the reasons Neirai listed).

Please don't misunderstand: Leadership should most definitely value the input of active members. Leadership should lead for the good of the individuals and groups over which they hold authority. I've watched my staff members invest countless hours and tremendous efforts into building communities for Christian gamers. But volunteer leadership shouldn't be expected to explain and justify every decision they make. There simply isn't enough time for that. If some members disagree with leadership decisions, they are free to leave--a luxury not afforded to citizens of nations, and a clear difference between volunteer organizations and countries.
 
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