A question for those who do not believe in the Law

[mrpopdrinker]

I hear the saying alot that we are now under grace and the law is no longer in effect because grace has come etc etc. To those of you who no longer believe in the Law I have a question. If the Law is no longer in effect then why do you need grace anyway? Sin is the transgression of the Law so if there is no Law there can be no sin correct? Now many with this thinking of course do love and believe in the ten commandments. So I also have to ask do you really believe the Law is not in effect? Or are you just picking and choosing what commandments to follow?

 

[[toj.cc]El Jefe[sww:D]]

Can you clarify your questions a bit? What exactly are you terming as the "Law?" And is breaking any part of the Law the only way you think it is possible to sin? I think I understand your question (and I fully agree with what you are going for), I'd just like to better know what your opinion on these two things are before I post my thoughts.

El Jefe de Nadie
spooky wooky wooky

 

[mrpopdrinker]

I am speaking of the Laws given in the Tanakh (mainly Torah although I cant remember if Laws were given after Torah) and the gospels. Yes breaking any part of the Law is the only way to sin.

 

[TastyWheat]

"What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, 'Do not covet.' But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from the law, sin is dead. Once I was alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brough death. For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good."

~ Romans 7:7-12

 

[LionOfJudah]

The law doesnt cause us to sin rather it shows us our sin, the law has some great ideas like Tithing, 10% IS A GOOD benchmark but make it higher , First Cor i think it says give as you have been given to and accordingly. if you can only give 5 dollars and you make 10000 a day, and that i syour best that is FINE.

AS far as believing in the law, i dont believe that it can save me, but Jesus came to fullfill the law not abolish it. So yes we do need to observe the law, but realize it is for the Jews, and that Gods grace is the cover all.

What really matters is that you live a life of LOVE. that one word basicly sums up the entire NT, all the rest is commentary

 

[Whitestone]

Jesus replied. "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

John 14:23

I think this pretty well answers why we should still follow the laws.

 

[mrpopdrinker]

Quote[/b] ]So yes we do need to observe the law, but realize it is for the Jews

So what are you saying then, that gentiles dont need grace?

Quote[/b] ]AS far as believing in the law, i dont believe that it can save me,

Quote[/b] ]Gods grace is the cover all.

Really because I dont believe you can be saved without it. Luke 5:32 "I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance." Luke 24:47 "and repentance and forgivness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations beginning an Jerusalem." 2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slow concerning his promise as some understand slowness. he is patient with you not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. " Jude 1:4 "For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only sovereign and Lord"
I think it is quite clear that we have to keep the Law. We cant just sin and say "oh well grace will cover that no big deal". If we do sin you must repent of your sin then yes grace will cover it. However forgivness cannot come before repentance. There are three parts to salvation, works,faith and grace. Matthew 7:21-23 "Not everyone who comes to me and says "Lord Lord" will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my father in heaven. Many will come do me on that day, "Lord Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?" Then I will tell them plainly I never knew you away from me you evil doers! " Faith alone wont cut it.

 

[Ultima Avatar]

So...you do have an altar? You do go to a synagogue? You are circumcised, being a Gentile? You do sacrifice on the proper days and the proper creatures in the proper manner? And you do wash your hands just so, digging one fist into the other palm just so? And tell me you don't wear denim, or shirts of mixed fibers, because if you do, oh baby.

 

[Master~Plan]

heh, yeah the law is in like Levitacus (sp?). It talks about how if you sin you have to sacrifice an animal to become clean. Or if you have mildew, you have to burn the item or make it clean thourgh ceremonial processes. Theres also parts about dipping doves in blood, and other stuff.
I see the whole point of the old testament as the line that leads to Christ, and the proof that we can not be perfect. Should we obey the old testament and not eat certain animals, and sacrifice animals? I don't think that is nescessary, because Jesus never did. Should we obey the 10 commandments? yes, I think so because God's word is forever truth, and Jesus observed the 10 commandments according to Gods perfect expectation.
I guess I'm kind of slow, but I don't understand the point your trieng to make mrpopdrinker . If you don't think we should sin and say "oh well, I"m forgiven". Your very right. If you think we are saved by works, then I don't agree.
Its the old paradox I guess. Works are useless without faith, and faith is useless without works. So is it the works that save you, or the faith? I believe the faith, but the works prove the faith.(Thats my take on it, I don't really have any scripture off the top of my head.)
-Corey

 

[mrpopdrinker]

Ultima, I am still going through and learning the all the different commandments. As far as sacrifices I do not believe we no longer need to do those as Yeshua was the final sacrifice. It was written that he came to fullfill the law and the prophets. Matthew 5:17-18 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fullfill them. I tell you the truth, untill heaven and earth dissappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means dissappear from the Law untill everything is accomplished. "

Quote[/b] ]I see the whole point of the old testament as the line that leads to Christ, and the proof that we can not be perfect.

Well I am sure you have the right to think what you wish but however God does too. Deuteronomy 30:11-14 "Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. It is not up in heaven so that you have to ask "who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask "Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it? " No the word is very near you it is in your mouth and in your heart so that you may obey it. " It seems Torah isnt that hard to keep and is keepable.  

Quote[/b] ] guess I'm kind of slow, but I don't understand the point your trieng to make mrpopdrinker

I am saying we need to drop this "I have grace so I dont have to follow the hard stuff " theology and return to the Law.

Quote[/b] ]If you don't think we should sin and say "oh well, I"m forgiven". Your very right. If you think we are saved by works, then I don't agree.

Well you see it is a combination of all three things. If I have a head a vocabulary but no toungue then I cannot speak. In the same way if I have grace and faith but no works (or obedience if youd like) then I cannot be saved. Torah wasent a temporary thing. Deuteronomy 4:2 "Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the Lord you God I gave you." Deuteronomy 12:32 "See that you do all I command you do not add to it or take away from it."

Quote[/b] ]Should we obey the old testament and not eat certain animals, and sacrifice animals? I don't think that is nescessary, because Jesus never did

Really would you mind showing me some verses that say he dident? Oh and Ultima I dont know where you live but here in Michigan I think it is pretty standard to be circumcised when you are born, and yes I am circumcized.

Quote[/b] ]You are circumcised, being a Gentile?

 

[Eon]

It certainly isn't a procedure they do as standard - it isn't like, "Well we cut the cord, sir, and we thought "Whilst we have the scissors out, what the hey!"

 

[Thaddius]

The law is very important but it also depends on what laws you are talking about. There are 3 types of laws given to the people in the Torah. Civil laws, Moral laws, and Ceremonial laws. What laws are you talking about here? Some of the laws no longer apply Pop, such as live sacrifices.

I agree with what you are saying here, I just don't understand why you think most of us feel the law no longer applies. The Bible NEVER says that. We are supposed to follow the laws to show obedience and to help us keep from sinning. If you attend a church that teaches the law is no longer important, then run away as fast as you can. While it is not what saves us (we are not saved by the law) it is what we are to live by to know what sin is.

Cory

 

[Master~Plan]

[/QUOTE] "Should we obey the old testament and not eat certain animals, and sacrifice animals? I don't think that is nescessary, because Jesus never did..."
Really would you mind showing me some verses that say he dident?

Quote[/b] ]
heh calm down man, no one is out to get you. Were all friends talking here...

The thing about that is, acording to logic, Jesus never sacrificed animals to atone(sp?) for sin, because he had no sin. And the Bible doesn't say he didn't not do alot of things. We can't go into proving absolute negatives.For argument sake, the Bible doesn't say Jesus never rode on a unicorn. However it doesn't mention he did. The new testament is an eye witness account of 4 men who included everything of relevance. and of course 2tim 3:16? "...all scripture is God breathed..."

Deuteronomy 4:2 "Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the Lord you God I gave you." Deuteronomy 12:32 "See that you do all I command you do not add to it or take away from it."

I'm going to assume your Jewish, or a Gentile aspiring to practice Judism(sp?) If thats what God convicted you of, thats great. Sure, its a great verse but you have to keep in mind who it was spoken to, and when. This verse was God talking to the isreallites after they escaped to Egypt. God never said anything like this to the Gentiles. This is the Covenant of Abraham. Hurray, I get to use my new Bible concordance!(thanx sis) and it says according to Luke 22:20 Jesus said "this cup is the new covenant" (during communion) the old covenant is one God made to Abraham and his people, that if they were perfect and followed Gods law, they could get into heaven and be the chosen people. The people broke the covenant by not being perfect. Sooo, Jesus is the new covenant. The cup represents his blood, and the bread his body that was pierced on a cross. The covenant is, I give Jesus my sins, and he dies as a ransom for them, and I go to heaven. My God came down to earth, had the love of a father, lived a perfect life, and hung on a cross because my sin nailed him there. I don't deserve ANY of it. I don't understand why God did it. I turn my back on God every time I sin, but he still loves me. I wish I never sinned and I try not to. I want to do Gods will to prove I love Jesus.

 

[Master~Plan]

leave it to me to mess up the quotes... well you get the idea haha

 

[Kidan]

but it also says that note one bit of the law will pass away, and that any who claims to change or nullify the law is a false prophet.

 

[mrpopdrinker]

Quote[/b] ]heh calm down man, no one is out to get you. Were all friends talking here...

Sorry if I did come off a bit harsh I dident mean to.  

 

Quote[/b] ]The thing about that is, acording to logic, Jesus never sacrificed animals to atone(sp?) for sin, because he had no sin.

Well that is one reason. Another reason he couldent sacrifice was because he was not a priest. Also he was God so there really isnt a point in sacrificing to yourself.

Quote[/b] ]and of course 2tim 3:16? "...all scripture is God breathed..."

2tim was writtin by Paul and to be outright blunt with you I reject his writings. Also that was speaking of the tanach. The new testament was not written when it was written.

Quote[/b] ]I'm going to assume your Jewish, or a Gentile aspiring to practice Judism(

I am a gentile yes. I guess my beliefs are closest to observant messianic Judaism. Infact christianity was never supposed to happen. There was only supposed to be Judaism however they rejected the Messiah therefore messianic judaism was born and then christianity. The name christian if I remember correctly was a insult by the greeks said to those who follow Yeshua and it just stuck.

Quote[/b] ] If thats what God convicted you of, thats great.

God is not going to tell one person to believe one way and another to believe another way. Thats one problem I see with alot of christians today. When it comes to do somthing they start a sentance with I think or I feel. God is God and his Laws are his Laws and we are commanded to keep them. You cannot base things on feelings.  

Quote[/b] ]Sooo, Jesus is the new covenant.

Ok so what then? I quoted earlier that Yeshua said that he dident come to do away with the Law and anyone who teaches against it will be called the least in heaven. Although I dont believe they will make it into heaven.

Quote[/b] ]This verse was God talking to the isreallites after they escaped to Egypt. God never said anything like this to the Gentiles.

You know the ten commandments were also said to the Jews maybe you shouldent keep them?

Quote[/b] ]Some of the laws no longer apply Pop, such as live sacrifices.  

Actually I would say sacrifices never stopped but that they no longer need to be performed. He was the final sacrifice for all time and his blood goes very far. I dont know if I said that right or not but I think youll understand what I mean.  

Quote[/b] ]just don't understand why you think most of us feel the law no longer applies.

Most christians I know or speak with say that they are under grace and they no longer need to keep the Law.

Quote[/b] ]While it is not what saves us (we are not saved by the law) it is what we are to live by to know what sin is.

Yes we are to live by it. No its not really what saves us. However to recieve the atonment I would say that we have to keep them. That is what I think scripture teaches.

 

[Thaddius]

Pop,

Why do you outright reject Paul? Can you give us clear indication of where he contradicted Christ in his teachings?

Cory

 

[Master~Plan]

Quote[/b] ]Infact christianity was never supposed to happen. There was only supposed to be Judaism however they rejected the Messiah therefore messianic judaism was born and then christianity. The name christian if I remember correctly was a insult by the greeks said to those who follow Yeshua and it just stuck.

Its true I don't understand God as much as I would like to, but I know that God knows everything, and as far as things that are suppose to happen and not suppose to happen, this is not the case. God knew everything that happened would happen from day one. As far as Christian- yeah, I heard it means follower of Christ too, but never heard the insult twist.

Quote[/b] ]God is not going to tell one person to believe one way and another to believe another way. Thats one problem I see with alot of christians today.

ah, I agree, God commands all his people the same, I guess when I say "if thats what God convinced you of..." thats my way of saying we should agree to disagree, but I guess your still interested in the matter.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]This verse was God talking to the isreallites after they escaped to Egypt. God never said anything like this to the Gentiles.

You know the ten commandments were also said to the Jews maybe you shouldent keep them?

yes, but I said earlier the difference is that Jesus kept the ten commandments.

Quote[/b] ]2tim was writtin by Paul and to be outright blunt with you I reject his writings.

I'm still trying to read your take on the Bible. do you belive any of the new testament? You quoted Duet 4:2, and Duet12:32, do you believe anything written chronologically after dueteronomy? Do you believe Jesus was God? Your argument is unlike anyone's I have ever heard, and for what its worth I think its very interesting. But what it comes down to is that the old covenant is strictly between the Jews and God. If your a gentile, you have nothing to do with it, and you can't keep it because God never promised anything to you untill Jesus came. oh, and plz give me the reference for when Jesus said he did not come to break the law, I've read that verse but I couldn't find it when skimming through.

-Corey

 

[mrpopdrinker]

Quote[/b] ]yes, but I said earlier the difference is that Jesus kept the ten commandments.

Yea you said that. However you couldent prove it. To quote you.

Quote[/b] ]And the Bible doesn't say he didn't not do alot of things. We can't go into proving absolute negatives.For argument sake, the Bible doesn't say Jesus never rode on a unicorn. However it doesn't mention he did.

That is not proving anything.

Quote[/b] ]oh, and plz give me the reference for when Jesus said he did not come to break the law, I've read that verse but I couldn't find it when skimming through.

However I can prove that he did by quoting scripture. Matthew 5:17-19 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fullfill them. I tell you the truth, untill heaven and earth dissappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means dissappear from the Law untill everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. "

Quote[/b] ]I'm still trying to read your take on the Bible. do you belive any of the new testament?

Yup.

Quote[/b] ]Do you believe Jesus was God?

Yes, like most here I am a trinitarian.

Quote[/b] ]But what it comes down to is that the old covenant is strictly between the Jews and God.

No not really. There were (and still are) converts to Judaism. I believe they were called prosylites(sp). Although there are a certain group today called the B'nai Noach (translated noahide?) or somthing like that. Also the Jews if I remember correctly (I dont feel the best at the moment and done feel like looking for it.) were called to be a light unto the nations. They word for nations I believe is goyim goy translates as gentile. So yea I think I have something to do with it.

 

[Master~Plan]

I guess communication got mixed up somewhere along the long path of replies back and forth.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]yes, but I said earlier the difference is that Jesus kept the ten commandments.

Yea you said that. However you couldent prove it. To quote you.

What I said ,if you look back earlier, is that you cannot prove that Jesus didn't sacrifice animals. Thats all... and because Jesus was perfect we can assume he followed the ten commandments. I'll stop correcting old issues, I don't think that will contribute much more to the converstion.

If you want to pick and pull peices out of the new testament to reject and accept to fit your argument, I guess thats your call. As for me, I believe the Bible is God's written word, and Jesus is the living word. Mahfrot in another forum gave the story of the forming of the Bible very well:

Quote[/b] ]As far as the kinds of prophets and stuff that actually made it into the Bible, that was really a tough decision. The books that were chosen as part of the Canon (as it's called) were put under a lot of scrutiny, especially concerning the book's authorship, how old it was when found, it's content (i.e. is God even mentioned?) and relevance. It's true that there are probably a couple of books (intertestamental prophecy and such) that might've deserved to belong in the Canon compared with others, but as Christians we say that we have complete trust in God that whatever ended up in the Canon was by His inspiration.

The Jews rejected Pauls teachings while he was alive, and I guess nothing has changed, but my beliefs are that God worked through Paul. Most of his ministry was aimed at the Jews, and the Jews persecuted Paul for it and tried to have him killed. Paul addresses this same issue were discussing(sp?) in Romans 3:19-Romans 4.
I believe no one is justified through the law because we have all fallen victim to sin. salvation comes by faith in Jesus Christ alone. I don't think we have a common ground to argue on anymore because you have rejected part of the Bible.
At the same time, I am sick of Christians who will throw around thier grace like a free ticket to do anything they want. God knows our hearts.

-Corey