A question for those who do not believe in the Law

[Avesther]

Quote[/b] ]At the same time, I am sick of Christians who will throw around thier grace like a free ticket to do anything they want.

We were instructed not to throw our grace around like a free ticket...its in Romans. Hmm..a letter by Paul.

 

[mrpopdrinker]

Quote[/b] (Gods_Peon @ Feb. 08 2004,12:34)]

Quote[/b] ]At the same time, I am sick of Christians who will throw around thier grace like a free ticket to do anything they want.

We were instructed not to throw our grace around like a free ticket...its in Romans.  Hmm..a letter by Paul.

I always used Jude. Although you could probably find Paul saying both sides of the matter. As for why I reject Paul. He twists and misquotes the tanakh alot in his writings. One example would be romans 9:11-14. In there Paul is saying that the Tanakh says God hated Esau but loved Jacob just because. However the Tanakh says no such thing. Paul is misquoting from Malachi 1:2-5 which does say Jacob I loved but Esau I hated. However if you read it you will see it is talking about the nation of edom and not the person of Esau. In genesis 25:23 there is also nothing to indicate that God hated Esau before he was born for no reason. God is better than that.

Quote[/b] ]and because Jesus was perfect we can assume he followed the ten commandments.

We can assume he followed the whole Law.

Quote[/b] ]If you want to pick and pull peices out of the new testament to reject and accept to fit your argument, I guess thats your call.

Oh please I rejected Paul long before this thread. I dident do it to make scripture fit my view. I did it because I have found Paul to be a false teacher.

 

[Thaddius]

Pop, I will ask again for this overwhelming evidense you have found that Paul contradicts Christ. If you cannot produce it, I'll just have to chalk you up there with Leo.


Cory

 

[Kidan]

The thing you must remember about Paul, is that he organized the early Christian teachings into the religion as it exists today. Paul was the first apostle with training to be a teacher/preacher. Why would it be surprising then that our teachings come from him?

At no time does Paul contradict Christ. At no time does Paul say that the Law is null and void.

Now, are his writings used improperly? Of course! Especially in the way that we (since the KJV was written) read the Bible. With Stanza and verse attached as a later addition it affects how we read the Bible. Sentences will begin and end in different verses. Thoughts and concepts are split in different places by different Study Note makers. It's hard to grasp where Paul's quoting a previous letter, and what's his notes even.

Now what about Jude? In it, Paul teaches that grace alone is not a valid license to do whatever. He is speaking against church-goers, who are active, participating in all the little things church-goers do, and yet they still live like the devil the rest of the week. He says these people are not saved, even though they claim the grace of Christ.

Faith without works is dead, and works without faith is pointless. Our primary work in this world is to lead a life as Christ-like as possible. We should strive to obey the law. Yet if we falter, or if we fail, then we can claim the grace of Christ. As long as it's a stumble, not a U-turn.

This is the grace that Paul teaches. Fully in line with the works doctrine that Peter & John teach.


While I appluad that you are questioning and wondering about the Bible, it's authenticity, and whether or not it's 100% correct. I cannot concur with the dismissal of Pauline doctrine and his epistles. At the same time I cannot concur with the full dismissal of the law. Since it's clearly taught that we should strive to live up to it.

 

[mrpopdrinker]

Quote[/b] ]Pop, I will ask again for this overwhelming evidense you have found that Paul contradicts Christ. If you cannot produce it, I'll just have to chalk you up there with Leo.
Cory

Now I see! It isnt enough that he conflicts the rest of the Bible but now I have to go and find a direct contradiction of words between the two!

Quote[/b] ]Now what about Jude? In it, Paul teaches that grace alone is not a valid license to do whatever.

Paul did not write Jude.

 

[Thaddius]

Then show me where he contradicts the whole Bible. I'm just saying if your going to sell this line of stuff, your going to have to prove it to make it valid. I still don't understand the whole point of this thread. It seems no one here is saying the law is invalid. I think your preaching to the wrong crowd.

Cory

 

[Thaddius]

<bump> still looking for an answer on this from Pop.

Cory

 

[mrpopdrinker]

Quote[/b] (Thaddius @ Feb. 16 2004,11:37)]<bump>  still looking for an answer on this from Pop.

Cory

Ok. I posted a contradiction before on the I believe it was the predestination vs freewill  thread. I posted the same one on this thread but never got an answer from anyone trying to rebut it. I dont feel like typing it again (nor do I have the time) so I will just quote myself from elsewhere.  

Quote[/b] ]Or did Paul have no idea what he was talking about? I would have to say Paul dident know what he was talking about. Lets look at the verses. Romans 9:11-13 "Yet before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad in order that God's purpose in election might stand not by works but by him who calls she was told "the older shall serve the younger" Just as it is written "Jacob I loved but Esau I hated"." Now Paul is supposed to be quoting Malachi and Genesis right? Well lets see what they have to say. They had better add up to!
quote:
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Malachi 1:2-5 "I have loved you says the Lord. But you ask "how have you loved us?" "Was not Esau Jacobs brother?" The Lord says "Yet I have loved Jacob, but Esau I have hated, and I have turned his mountains into a wastland and lefte his inheritance to the desert jackals." Edom May say "Though we have been crushed we will rebuild the ruins." But the Lord almighty says: "They may build but I will demolish. They will be called the wicked land, a people always under the wrath of the Lord. You will see it with your own eyes and say, "Great is the Lord even beyond the borders of Israel.!
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Hmm look at that no mention of God hating anyone before birth. Infact it is not even talking about Esau but rather the nation of Edom. The genesis passage speaks nothing of God hating anyone before they were born either, read Genesis 25:23 for yourself and see. So is there somewhere in the Tanach elswhere that says God hated Esau before he was born? Or is Paul just misquoting and misunderstanding the Bible? Look like he is misunderstanding it to me.

 

[Master~Plan]

Quote[/b] ]Hmm look at that no mention of God hating anyone before birth.

Reading Romans 9, it looks to me that Paul is saying that before the twins were born God said that "the older will serve the younger". This is proof of God having favoratism before birth, before they committed any good or evil.

Quote[/b] ]Infact it is not even talking about Esau but rather the nation of Edom.

It suggests in Malachi that God is talking about both Esau and his descendants(sp?) saying because of Esau's foolishness, his inheritance/future will be bad. His discendants will not prosper. Thats my take on it. I don't see how what Paul says in Romans 9 conflicts with Malachi.

-Corey

 

[mrpopdrinker]

Quote[/b] ]Reading Romans 9, it looks to me that Paul is saying that before the twins were born God said that "the older will serve the younger".

Yes and that was said in Genesis and it was a prophecy.

Quote[/b] ]It suggests in Malachi that God is talking about both Esau and his descendants(sp?) saying because of Esau's foolishness, his inheritance/future will be bad.

I am pretty sure Esau was dead by the time the book of Malachi was written. So how could it be talking about his future?

Quote[/b] ]Thats my take on it. I don't see how what Paul says in Romans 9 conflicts with Malachi.

Paul is misquoting Malachi to try and get people to believe that God hated Esau for no good reason.

Quote[/b] ]This is proof of God having favoratism before birth, before they committed any good or evil.

We are not talking about favoratism here. We are talking about hatred.

 

[Thaddius]

Quote[/b] ]Chapter 9 might be divided thus: (a) The apostle's solicitude for Israel (vv. 1-5), whose seven-fold privilege he names. There is a difficulty of interpretation in verse 3, which might be helped by a slight variation in the translation, which some have rendered: "I have great heaviness for my brethren (for I myself were wishing to be accursed from Christ)." The thought may be that he is expressing sympathy with them in their spiritual darkness, because he was once in a like case. (b) The fact that some of Israel were saved (vv. 6-13). The Word of God had taken some effect for there were Israelites who had believed, and were now counted not only as Abraham's natural posterity but his spiritual children. This principle of selection was illustrated in the choice of Jacob over Esau. "Hated" (v. 13), must not be understood of arbitrary wrath, but only as expressing choice. ©. The sovereignty of God in such a choice is defended (vv. 14-24), for His mercy is under His sovereign will. The reference to Pharaoh must not be understood of arbitrary action on God's part, but as involving the free choice of the wicked monarch. God did not put forth effort to change that choice, so that the hardening of his heart was the penal consequence of his folly. (d) The Old Testament predicted the rejection of Israel and the calling of the Gentiles (vv. 25-33). (Cf. Hos. 1:10, 2:23; Isa. 10:22, 23, etc.)

Quote[/b] ]6-13 The rejection of the Jews by the gospel dispensation, did not break God's promise to the patriarchs. The promises and threatenings shall be fulfilled. Grace does not run in the blood; nor are saving benefits always found with outward church privileges. Not only some of Abraham's seed were chosen, and others not, but God therein wrought according to the counsel of his own will. God foresaw both Esau and Jacob as born in sin, by nature children of wrath even as others. If left to themselves they would have continued in sin through life; but for wise and holy reasons, not made known to us, he purposed to change Jacob's heart, and to leave Esau to his perverseness. This instance of Esau and Jacob throws light upon the Divine conduct to the fallen race of man. The whole Scripture shows the difference between the professed Christian and the real believer. Outward privileges are bestowed on many who are not the children of God. There is, however, full encouragement to diligent use of the means of grace which God has appointed.

now, let me break it down for you. Mind you our versions today are translated into English, including English word structuring and punctuation.

Here is from Strongs Literal Bible. I took out all the other reference numbers except the two in question.

12. it was said to her, The greater will serve the lesser.
13. Even as it has been written: Jacob |0025| I loved, but Esau |3404| I loved less.

Quote[/b] ]Strong's Ref. # 25

Romanized agapao
Pronounced ag-ap-ah'-o

perhaps from agan (much) [or compare HSN5689]; to love (in a social or moral sense):

KJV--(be-)love(-ed). Compare GSN5368.

Quote[/b] ]Strong's Ref. # 3404

Romanized miseo
Pronounced mis-eh'-o

from a primary misos (hatred); to detest (especially to persecute); by extension, to love less:

KJV--hate(-ful).

You are allowing hangups in the english language to cloud the truth behind the scriptures. I think if we could read it in Hebrew, it would have a clearer understanding. I figured you didn't have anything else besides this, and I do hope that you will figure it all out soon pop. I hate to see a fellow Christian struggle so.

Cory

 

[Master~Plan]

thats some scholorly work there thaddius, thanx bro.

 

[mrpopdrinker]

Thank you Thaddius I do appreciate you posting this. The literal translation certainly does change the meaning. It also seems to be in accordance with the Hebrew scripture (the Tanach) which to my knowledge translated accurately does indeed say loved less. I am going to try and get this Bible and restudy this and some of my other issues with Paul.

 

[Thaddius]

Pop, as I said before, I myself have been down this road, mainly from information I found on the same site as you. I am glad you found the information I posted beneficial. If I can be of any help, let me know. I'll see what I can dig up.

Cory

 

[mrpopdrinker]

Quote[/b] (Thaddius @ Feb. 20 2004,11:52)]Pop, as I said before, I myself have been down this road, mainly from information I found on the same site as you.  I am glad you found the information I posted beneficial.  If I can be of any help, let me know.  I'll see what I can dig up.  

Cory

Actually if you dont mind me asking I was wondering if you could give me the ISBN number of the strongs literal Bible you quoted from. I have been having trouble finding it online and we are going to to christian bookstore in a few hours. I cant read greek however this translation looks like it would make for a much better study and understanding of Paul.

 

[TastyWheat]

Quote[/b] (mrpopdrinker @ Feb. 20 2004,6:19)]I cant read greek however this translation looks like it would make for a much better study and understanding of Paul.

Strong's is pretty good, and I think Luther's original German Bible is pretty accurate too.

Of course, nothing beats the primary sources. The Greek New Testament that I work from is the 4th edition edited by Bruce Metzger and the UBS. It really is handy to see the NT as it literally is instead of how English has mangled some parts of it.

gg Greek

 

[Thaddius]

Pop, I won't be able to get it posted until tonight, as it is at home and I am at work. I use some Bible software that I have at home. It has a built in Strongs Bible. Don't know if that helps much....I'll take a look at it when I get home.

Cory

 

[mrpopdrinker]

Quote[/b] (Thaddius @ Feb. 20 2004,2:51)]Pop, I won't be able to get it posted until tonight, as it is at home and I am at work. I use some Bible software that I have at home.  It has a built in Strongs Bible.  Don't know if that helps much....I'll take a look at it when I get home.

Cory

Actually dont worry about it. I was looking at some old Bible software I got a few years ago and it has the traslation as well as the numbers. Thanks anyway.