April 2008 Imprimis

I don't have the brain power atm to digest the whole article..but it was reminiscent of the last school council meeting I went to where they quoted someone saying something like -- the collaborative answer that a group would come up with would invariably be better than that of one expert. I guess its more of the humanistic world view that if we just all group together our collaboration, commonality, norming -- whatever you want to call it -- will come up with the best answer. I watched an Oprah you-tube video yesterday which sounded like more of the same self-realization etc. (worth a watch..it makes ya think http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JW4LLwkgmqA&feature=related ) It puts me on my guard to see all the "ear tickling" that is going on...Makes me wonder what they would say about there being ONE WAY or ONE ANSWER??
 
Many people view the UN as a kind of world government, a higher level of government than national governments. For a government to be effective, it needs the respect (or fear) of those it governs over, and it has to be able to enforce its laws and policies. The UN has neither.
 
[7F]LarryBoy;283870 said:
For a government to be effective, it needs the respect (or fear) of those it governs over, and it has to be able to enforce its laws and policies. The UN has neither.
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Agreed. The UN is about as effective at governing its membership countries as gasoline is at putting out fires. Some may respect the idea of the UN, but nobody really respects what it has become. It reminds me of the US federal government. Many of the founders had deeply held reservations about establishing a central government to "form a more perfect union". Many of the fears these founders had have already come true as our federal government gains more and more control over our personal and financial lives. The more people expect from their government, the less freedom they have, and also the more corrupt the authority becomes. No country is exempt from the nature of government which seeks to control and grow its power. US citizens were given the power to affect this, and sadly we use it to help the government grow rather than to limit it. The UN has no authority, and the US proved that when we tried to get the UN to act on its own resolutions. The resolutions are nothing but words on paper without the courage to enforce them. The UN has no courage, and in my mind has no moral or political authority whatsoever.

The U.N. Budget Committee voted two to one against effective outside auditing of U.N. programs. This tells you pretty much everything you need to know about how the U.N. operates. And I should add that the countries voting in favor of these reforms contribute over 90 percent of the U.N.’s budget, whereas the countries voting against them contribute under ten percent.
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Sounds a lot like the fight here in the US over taxes. Democrats constantly repeat the mantra "tax cuts for the rich" in opposition to cutting taxes at the federal level. What they never tell you is that the rich pay most of the tax, therefore any cut made will inevitably benefit the rich. They also fail to define rich. In some proposals made by Democrats, rich is defined as more than 50k a year, 100k for a 2 income household... whoa. In my situation, I make less than 30k a year and had just under $900 withheld from my paycheck last year (just from federal). I have an accountant do my taxes every year and I take as many legal deductions as possible. I am receiving a tax refund from the feds of over $3000 dollars. Do the math.

I paid in tax for 2007: $900
Feds are refunding to me: $3000
Extra $ the taxpayer is paying me for being poor: $2100
I am also receiving a stimulus check for: $900
Total money I am stealing via my government from the taxpayers: $3000

Do poor or middle income people like me really pay taxes? The taxpayers are actually paying me because I'm poor and my expenses are extremely high (I'm an idiot, pay me money). I am not creating jobs, I am not developing the economy, I am not investing in the economy, and the government is rewarding me for my lack of effort and punishing the creators of wealth and opportunity. To me this shows a absolute lack of understanding of economics by the people in this country and represents a dire need to teach financial education in our schools. If we taught as much about economics as we do about Darwin the Democrats party would either completely dissolve into nothingness or have to revamp its platform on poverty and taxes.

In summary, I don't trust government to manage anything. This includes the U.N. In fact, the bigger the entity (the more chefs in the kitchen), the less trust I have for it.
 
It is highly interesting how, in some of my travels to other countries (ya, I do that for work), the UN is used to bash the US over the head, regardless of its effectiveness. It kinda like the keoto(spelling?) treaty (for reduction of greenhouse gasses, disproportionately affects US of course). The US refused to sign it, and decided to let private industry do what they could.

FYI- 2006 (latest year available) Keoto treaty member emissions went up 2%. Very few members even approach complaince. Oh, the US you ask??? dropped one-half of a percent year over year.......
 
Actually, that new article parallels the original. The reason we are still in the UN is the same most others are...because its better than nothing, but just barely. If we removed ourselves, it would remove any influence we have over the UN (as the first article states). As such it is within our interest to seek approval where we can get it, as the second article states. While the 2nd is obviously pro-UN, and the first decidedly anti-UN (with the understanding we still have to remain, despite its failings), I see little contradiction in the macro view of the issue.
 
3-demon, I think it's actually the middle class that pays most of the taxes. The wealthy have the money to pay people to find ways to get out of paying most of their taxes (offshore corporations, etc), and frequently do. And as you pointed out, poor people don't have the money to pay taxes in the first place.
 
Middle class is definitely the bread & butter of any economy. I'm not an economist, but I've heard and believe that. Its why so many 3rd world countries have lousy economies. They have the rich, and the poor, but very few in-between, unlike most developed nations.
 
Actually, do some research and you may be surprised at how MUCH the "rich" actually pay in taxes. I have not reached what you call rich, by any means, but I have certainly seen how my taxes have gone up more quickly in proportion to the amount I make as I get my raises. I recently read (and not from just one source, anyone can say anything once) that the top 20% of Americans actually pay nearly 80% of all income taxes. The often given excuse is that the rich avoid paying most of their taxes. This may be true for some few (the Clintons actually avoid much of their taxes through a sham charitable organization bearing there name, but which gives very little to charity for example), but most wealthy individuals still have to pay a lit in taxes. Of course, if you pay 50% of your $2MM income in various taxes (income taxes, Property taxes, Sales taxes, state income taxes, etc easily add up to this), you still have $1MM left over. Therefore its seems like they pay little, especially if you make $60k for example and have to pay $6k in taxes. Since you have only $54k left and the rich guy has $1MM, he must not pay enough right? Wrong of course. This attitude is simply coveting your neighbors goods.

I agree with the statement that a viable middle class is the bread & butter of the economy, if you only had upper and lower income then their is no true freedom or true economic development. However, it is also true that without an upper class of the hugely successful, there would be no one to create jobs for the middle class. And, without the lowest economic level, there would be no one doing some jobs which need to be done, but no one really likes to do. The entire structure is necessary for a healthy vibrant economy.

Until Christ comes back and establishes His benevolent dictatorship, I would much prefer to live in a society where we are free to work to chose our "class - upper, middle, so called lower", than live in a society where moving between the classes is not an option. After He comes, I would gladly do whatever role He places me in. No one else is qualified to determine my role in the world, and no one but you should determine yours either.
 
[7F]LarryBoy;284485 said:
3-demon, I think it's actually the middle class that pays most of the taxes. The wealthy have the money to pay people to find ways to get out of paying most of their taxes (offshore corporations, etc), and frequently do.
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You obviously have not been drinking your tainted Kool-Aid. According to our politicians, the middle class is actually shrinking. Another problem with that statement is what the definition of middle class is. Where do you draw your lines?

What makes a typical rich person rich (forget Paris Hilton types for a moment)? A rich person is typically a person who owns assets. Assets are defined as things that put money into your pocket rather than take money (a.k.a. liabilities). If I own a 60 unit apartment building and I take in $11,000 a month in income, what sort of other taxes am I responsible for? Property tax? How about the management company I employ to manage the building, am I not paying their salaries that include a corporate or other form of payroll tax? Sure, if I can afford to buy a 60 unit apartment building I can afford to shelter a lot of my income from taxes, but it’s likely that what I pay is still far greater than what the middle class pays. If I am wealthy, I likely own lots of real estate and businesses. I use these businesses and real estate properties to lower my own personal burden of taxes. How is the tax revenue that my businesses and real estate generate factored into my personal contribution of tax? The answer is it is not factored in at all. The middle class is comprised of many small to medium business owners as well. Many of these people have access to the same tax sheltering mechanisms that the wealthy have. The wealthy just have more, and therefore pay more in taxes. Case in point:

Exxon mobile pays more tax than 50% of Americans combined
 
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3-dEMON said:
According to our politicians, the middle class is actually shrinking. Another problem with that statement is what the definition of middle class is. Where do you draw your lines?
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This is purely my speculation, but I'd guess that the "middle class" is set at some arbitrary income amount. It doesn't figure in cost of living or change from year to year.

The downfall with such a number is that while I live quite comfortably here in middle-of-nowhere in Ohio, I'd likely qualify for government assistance in New York City. The other problem is that the number likely doesn't keep up with inflation. Anyone that files 1040 (long form) for US tax returns sees the line about Alternative Minimum Tax. The threshold for limiting your deductions on your property taxes and charitable contributions hasn't moved in well over 20 years. That means that every year that we get 2-3% raises at work, we all move closer and closer to being penalized for "making too much". I would guess that the "middle class" lines are impacted much in the same manner.
 
I would think that the reason "3rd world countries don't have a middle class" is because there is no ability for the lower class to attain a higher class.

Face it, in much of America, probably a good third of the middle class is either people who are ascending towards "upper" class, or people who are dropping from on top.

In many 3rd world countries, the poor are oppressed and kept poor by the upper class, who personally feel they benefit from it. Too bad that in the long run it means their country will always be dominated by the G7 nations. When it comes down to it, many of these nations resist things like Free Trade because it would allow their poor to market things independently, allowing them to grow into an entrepreneur class -- a middle class.

Okay, so I'm saying this from a complete lack of any evidence. Lol. Except that I took Renaissance Literature in College. The Renaissance was when the middle class started up. It was what they called the "Merchant class." Merchants, for the first time ever, were free to trade goods between allied nations without first having to hand them all off to their feudal lord. Merchants had no titles or breeding but many of them were wealthy, even some to the point of being more wealthy than the monarchs.

So what I'm saying is, as soon as the 3rd world countries allow ground-based entrepreneurial work, and don't suppress such endeavors, we'll see a middle class in those countries.

my 2c.
 
Just to echo Neirai, the ability for citizens to work hard and have that hard work benefit them directly (monetarily) is what makes nations wealthy. Wealthier people have money to spend, and so other people provide things for them to buy, which in turn makes more money. This is why China is finally starting to become wealthy. They're allowing their citizens to run private businesses and trade directly with other countries.

It's when you live in a country where the government will take everything you make anyway, or where you will never be more than what you are now, why should you bother putting in more effort than is absolutely necessary to get by? There's no motivation to do so, no motivation to be better. This is also why governments need to be a little careful with taxes. Every time taxes are raised, there are a number of people who decide that it's not worth it to work anymore, or work more than X amount. They'd rather just live off the system. England had this problem a number of years ago. The tax rate for income over a certain dollar amount was over 100%. Well, who's going to bother making more than that? It's very bad for a nation's economy when people decide it's not worth it to work more than the minimum.
 
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