Are the Charasmatic gifts for today?

What do you think about the Charasmatic gifts?

  • They are very much alive and well in our churches today!

    Votes: 12 70.6%

  • They have ceased.

    Votes: 1 5.9%

  • Other...

    Votes: 4 23.5%
  • Total voters
    17
Wash.

Wash.

New Member
In Acts and I Corinthians (and other Scripture) there is mention of spiritual gifts like the gift of healing, tongues, prophecy, and maybe a few others...

I Corinthians 13:10 says that when the perfect comes, the partial will cease.

So, Are these spiritual gifts still alive and well or did they cease?
 
I think with stuff like tongues, being slain in the spirit, spontaneously laughing or weeping, etc., it's just hard to tell if it's genuine or not.

1 Corinthians 14:1-25
Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy. 2For anyone who speaks in a tongue[a] does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit.[b] 3But everyone who prophesies speaks to men for their strengthening, encouragement and comfort. 4He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. 5I would like every one of you to speak in tongues,[c] but I would rather have you prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues,[d] unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified. 6Now, brothers, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction? 7Even in the case of lifeless things that make sounds, such as the flute or harp, how will anyone know what tune is being played unless there is a distinction in the notes? 8Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle? 9So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air. 10Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning. 11If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and he is a foreigner to me. 12So it is with you. Since you are eager to have spiritual gifts, try to excel in gifts that build up the church.
13For this reason anyone who speaks in a tongue should pray that he may interpret what he says. 14For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. 15So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my mind. 16If you are praising God with your spirit, how can one who finds himself among those who do not understand[e] say "Amen" to your thanksgiving, since he does not know what you are saying? 17You may be giving thanks well enough, but the other man is not edified.
18I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. 19But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue.
20Brothers, stop thinking like children. In regard to evil be infants, but in your thinking be adults. 21In the Law it is written:
"Through men of strange tongues
and through the lips of foreigners
I will speak to this people,
but even then they will not listen to me,"[f] says the Lord.
22Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is for believers, not for unbelievers. 23So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and some who do not understand[g] or some unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind? 24But if an unbeliever or someone who does not understand[h]comes in while everybody is prophesying, he will be convinced by all that he is a sinner and will be judged by all, 25and the secrets of his heart will be laid bare. So he will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, "God is really among you!"
 
No Biblical backing for this answer-- I believe that they did fade away for a time, but that they are starting to show themselves again. Not in charismatic/pentecostal churches mind you, since prayer language is a completely different thing than speaking in tongues (which many pentecostals seem to have forgotten), but in places like Saudi Arabia, where many Muslims are converting to Christianity based on visions they have seen, or in Russia, where a friend of mine took part in a faith healing where the results were immediate and miraculous (a woman had a large, open sore on her leg, the team prayd for her, and the sore was gone without a trace).

I believe the gifts will return first to those who need them most, and that is those in countries where Christianity is oppressed (like the majority of the Middle East, China, Sudan, etc.). Again, I have no real solid verses that I can point to, I just feel that Americans and Europeans are so lazy in their faith that we have lost God's favor in the area of miraculous gifts.
 
Wasn't there some guy on Survivor who brought a Bible with him (the one object from the outside world that he could take with him or something) and he fell into a fire and got second and/or third-degree burns but was miraculously healed? I don't know if that was an urban legend or not.
 
Pastori, I have your biblical backing. I wrote a paper on this - i'll post it now. It will give you some more biblical force behind what you believe (i hope).

Before beginning my paper on what I know believe concerning charismatic gifts, let me preface it by giving a short introduction concerning where I come from in the debate. Going through my grandmother’s things recently, I have found a wealth of books on the gift of healing, wisdom, and other charismatic issues. This same charismatic nature carried over into my parent’s lives. However, after the issue of salvation evidence by speaking in tongues arose in their church, they left the charismatic movement for a more fundamental and conservative church body. However, the belief in the presence of those spiritual gifts were evident throughout being raised. Before coming to Liberty and hearing the following view, I believed without a doubt that Charismatic gifts are not only very much alive today, but are legitimate gifts that can be used within the church.
The following view is still experimental for me, but is making more sense the more I continue to look into it. Easily put, I believe that the charismatic gifts have not entirely ceased, but are practiced throughout different nations of the world. I could never become a full cessationist because I could not explain away the miracles of God that are preformed throughout the world. However, the frequency of their practice within America and the dogma and emotion that entails can be alarming. With that said, a fresh look at the Scripture concerning the cessation of gifts when the “perfect” comes is where the bulk of the discussion will take place. Please understand that I am approaching this subject with humility and hope that this essay will get you thinking about where you stand.
Every modern translation in Scripture of I Corinthians 13:10 have translated the word “telios” as “perfect.” So, when the perfect comes, the partial will cease. However, doing a search of this same exact word throughout I Corinthians, we see that some translators have decided to use “mature” or “adult” instead of “perfect.” (I Cor. 2:6, 14:20) Furthermore, in Ephesians 4:13, Philippians 3:15, and Colossians 4:12, the word appears and was translated as “mature.” (With the exception of Colossians 1:28, translated as “perfect”) Some translators do translate it to “perfect” as well, but my point here is the flexibility in translation for this specific word.
In addition, the context of scripture around I Corinthians 13:10 would promote the translation of telios into “mature” rather than perfect. Following this verse, Paul drew a comparison between the mind of a child and then becoming a man. When he became a man, he put the childish things behind him and began to speak, act, and reason like a man. Likewise, the church follows this same pattern. The church, in its infancy, needs the charismatic gifts as witness to the gospel of Christ. Following the comparison, the church in America is well matured into adulthood and has no need for charismatic gifts in order to bear witness. However, those churches throughout the world, in Africa, Asia, and parts of Europe require these gifts to bear witness to the gospel of Christ, because the churches are in their infancy.
Now, we turn our attention to Ephesians 4:11-23, we see that Paul gave a different charismatic list than mentioned in I Corinthians. However, we can see a similarity in the area concerning the passing of these gifts. For they remain, until all of us come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to maturity, to the measure of the full stature of Christ. In my opinion, the church in America has reached that maturity that matches Jesus’ ministry without the need to use charismatic gifts to further the gospel. Furthermore, those churches that have not reached that maturity still may practice these gifts.
Even if the word translated truly does mean “perfect,” Cessationists and Charismatics alike attach a very different meaning to the word. Instead of viewing perfect as a specific thing, person, event, or point in a time line, a more accurate view would be more fluid. Cessationists will tell you that the completion of the canon was the perfect; however, was the entire New Testament of the original documents of the canon combined to make the first New Testament booklet? If not, wouldn’t that copy be more perfect since it was an original copy? I would be more inclined to following a Charismatic who states that the “perfect” is the second coming of Christ. However, that view still leaves open questions, like why do only a few people practice these gifts? If it were until the end of time, I would expect more participation since these gifts would have been given by God. The view I am suggesting comes down the middle and says that there is no distinct answer of what the “perfect” is. For some churches, the perfect comes when the gospel can be presented to them in their own language. For others, the perfect comes when the Scriptures are written in their own dialect so they can understand completely. There is no definite answer to when the partial passes and the fullness comes because it is not a thick bold line that people cross.
In conclusion, although this is a new perspective on an old debate, I am wary of being dogmatic about the support I have given. I welcome your challenges as this is the first academic arena I have seen this opinion in. Please understand that I am not trying to rewrite Scripture or make it say something it does not mean. I hope you enjoyed reading this and thinking through it as I did tackling the idea and writing it.
 
ChickenSoup said:
Wasn't there some guy on Survivor who brought a Bible with him (the one object from the outside world that he could take with him or something) and he fell into a fire and got second and/or third-degree burns but was miraculously healed? I don't know if that was an urban legend or not.
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Yes. This guy spoke at my church a year or so after the season. He started praying a lot and decided to go fishing on a lake that supposedly had no fish whatsoever. He managed to catch a nice bundle. He brought it back to camp and asked everyone if they could pray before they ate, and they all agreed. I believe that team dominated that season. As for the guy, he did fall into the fire and he was rushed to the hospital. I think they had to do quite a bit of surgery (maybe reconstructive) but he healed fully! Praise the Lord!
 
Someone who believes in speaking in tongues, please tell me why they are even necessary? What was the point of them in the early church and what are the point of them now?
 
Don't get speaking in tongues confuzzled with prayer language, Wash. :)

Speaking in tongues is done by at most two or three people, and each with someone there who understands what is being said. It is essentially for the same purpose that Balaam's donkey spoke to him-- God using a miraculous way to give a message that cannot wait to be heard.

Prayer language is some people's interpretation of the "utterances (groanings) of the Holy Spirit". The idea is that the Spirit knows best how to intercede on our behalf, and so participants voluntarily give control of their voice to the Spirit. Personally, I have spoken in prayer language before on probably less than 5 occasions-- on my own, in private, because prayer language is a deep and very private thing. It is not necessary by any means, and in fact it's often a copout for me when I can't think of anything to say on my own.

Tongues is necessary to reach certain people right away. Prayer language is never necessary.
 
Well my view of "prayer language" is something only the holy spirit can do, and that it doesn't take control of our voices or something even if we let it because it doesn't have to.
 
well pastori i couldn't really understand you on that one... so wash here is my answer to the question. Speaking in tongues is evidence of the holy spirit dwelling within you... (yes there is biblical back up i believe its in acts somewhere)... i personally have done it thousands of times... no I've never been interpreted, but why should i need to be? I've personally watched probably 200+ people being filled with the holy spirit. So, that being said... how do I know that someone is filled with the holy spirit or has the holy spirit dwelling within them?? simple... because the holy spirit speaks through them in that forgien language.
 
who said that God would speak in English either. Maybe speaking in tongues is what God language is. idk, just throwing something out there :)
 
sdenotter said:
well pastori i couldn't really understand you on that one... so wash here is my answer to the question. Speaking in tongues is evidence of the holy spirit dwelling within you... (yes there is biblical back up i believe its in acts somewhere)... i personally have done it thousands of times... no I've never been interpreted, but why should i need to be?
Click to expand...

1 Corinthians 14:1-25 Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy. 2For anyone who speaks in a tongue[a] does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit.[b] 3But everyone who prophesies speaks to men for their strengthening, encouragement and comfort. 4He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. 5I would like every one of you to speak in tongues,[c] but I would rather have you prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues,[d] unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified. 6Now, brothers, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction? 7Even in the case of lifeless things that make sounds, such as the flute or harp, how will anyone know what tune is being played unless there is a distinction in the notes? 8Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle? 9So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air. 10Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning. 11If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and he is a foreigner to me. 12So it is with you. Since you are eager to have spiritual gifts, try to excel in gifts that build up the church.
13For this reason anyone who speaks in a tongue should pray that he may interpret what he says. 14For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. 15So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my mind. 16If you are praising God with your spirit, how can one who finds himself among those who do not understand[e] say "Amen" to your thanksgiving, since he does not know what you are saying? 17You may be giving thanks well enough, but the other man is not edified.
18I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. 19But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue.
20Brothers, stop thinking like children. In regard to evil be infants, but in your thinking be adults. 21In the Law it is written:
"Through men of strange tongues
and through the lips of foreigners
I will speak to this people,
but even then they will not listen to me,"[f] says the Lord.
22Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is for believers, not for unbelievers. 23So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and some who do not understand[g] or some unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind? 24But if an unbeliever or someone who does not understand[h]comes in while everybody is prophesying, he will be convinced by all that he is a sinner and will be judged by all, 25and the secrets of his heart will be laid bare. So he will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, "God is really among you!"
Click to expand...
What good is tongues without an interpreter?
 
Speaking in tongues is used as a tool in the Bible where it is used and always with an interpreter in the presence of others. The Bible does not give an instance of speaking in tongues without interpretation. That is the Biblical pattern for that gift. Having said that i firmly believe that the Charismatic gifts are for today in the popper context. God can and does heal instantaneously and prophecy as outlined in scripture is present in today's church, more often in the context of a NT prophet (the clarity of right and wrong) than the OT vein (futuresight and thus sayth the LORD style decrees). We are told clearly however that if anything a prophet states in the manner of prophecy fails to come true he is NOT of God but of the enemy. One strike and your out.

Rho
 
but its not like i have an interpreter walking around with me 24/7 incase God gives me a dose of tounges. and i have heard a woman in my church speak in some crazy language that i didnt know what it was. she was speaking weird and then she spoke in english. and as far as i know, nobody knows what she was saying.
 
STC i point you back to the selection posted by C$ above where it states that there is no advatage to tongues spoken without interpteration. We as a church today often swing to either one of two ends on this topic either they are required or they are DEAD. personally I believe they are alive but each has its own specific place and set of rules for usage as set forth in scripture.

Rho
 
but what if it does some personal advantage. maybe someone is struggling with something and God speaks through them. They may not need an interpretation to know that God is still there for them.
 
Tongues as described in scripture is not for personal benifit it is for the good of those around you. Again we look to the portion of scripture that C$ posted above. I am not saying God cannot do whatever he wants but it would be out of the character demonstared in the sriptures for him to use tongues in a purely private personal edification situation.

Rho
 
Also, make sure that the "translators" are genuine. Someone I know went to a Charismatic church and, as an experiment, spoke Arabic and someone "Traslated" for them. Frauds? I think so.
 
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