Are you willing to admit that you could be wrong?

[Eon]

This brings us smack bang onto that same problem I generally have debating Christianity - first of all we're all supposed to be upset that we're so unworthy and vile and then we're supposed to worship the one who made us that way.

I still don't understand why we should apologise for being weak if that's the way he wanted us?

 

[[toj.cc]phantom]

Understood. The Calvinist position believes in Predestination, does it not? Meaning while God chooses some, he purposefully does not choose others, correct?

I do not believe that there are people that God chooses not to go to Heaven. Remember God doesn't condem we condem ourselfs. On the other hand I believe that there are people that God knows will make it to Heaven, the Bible refers to these people as the Elect.

 

[Dark Virtue]

It is not just a God given right DV, it is a God given command.

How do you balance that with what you said earlier, "As to the question of whether I should expect anyone to change their beliefs do to any argument I can put words to, the answer to that is also NO."

This answer will probably upset some on this website and many will not agree...God leads his chosen to repent. The chosen were predestined from the beginning.

How do you explain the difference in the belief of Predestination? Especially in the light that those who believe in Predestination are in the minority of Christian believers? Why do you believe you are right and that those who don't believe in Predestination are wrong?

I have the Bible to back it up (Yes I know DV, the Bible is not a good enough argument for you. You want facts from a study and I don't have them.). Any Christian who has been one long enough to do much Bible study at all will come to the conclusion that works follow faith.

You misunderstood the question. I wasn't asking about how you reached your conclusion, I was asking about the number of believers that subscribed to the faith issue. You said, "For a very high percentage of Christians this is a none issue." I was asking about how you calculated the percentage.

No wars were waged over these issues DV.

No? You may want to do some research into the early Christian church during the first few years of its existence. Especially how they treated rival sects like the Gnostics.

Some may have claimed these issues as a reason for war, but they were not Christians. Not all who say they are a Christian are one DV. Some say their a Christian because their gamdma was, others because they live in America, and others because they can manipulate people using Christianity as the guise for their power play.

If this is the case, then why do "Christians" like Benny Hinn not suffer the persecution of "true" Christians? How do you reconcile two groups of Christians who believe they are "true" yet point the finger at each other and claim the other is not?

haha...where did you get the idea that all I am interested in is MY salvation DV? I am interested in yours...why do you think I spend time here in discussion with you?

What does it matter if you believe in Predestination?

I pray that God will open your eyes and call you.

Maybe I don't understand the whole Predestination thing. Hasn't God already made up his mind who has been called and who hasn't? Long before man was ever created?

Your right Christians are not nearly as united as I wish they were. But if they are Christians then they are united with me on the important issues.

I don't agree. I count Predestination and the path to salvation important issues, and Christians aren't united on those topics. What do you consider "important" issues?

Athiests are united under one god DV. The god of self.

Last I checked, Human Secularism wasn't a god. Nor are all atheists human secularists. I believe your statement is erroneous. Would you mind explaining?

 

[Dark Virtue]

I do not believe that there are people that God chooses not to go to Heaven. Remember God doesn't condem we condem ourselfs. On the other hand I believe that there are people that God knows will make it to Heaven, the Bible refers to these people as the Elect.

I'd love to hear you discuss this with Didasko who believes in Predestination.

 

[Didasko]

How do you balance that with what you said earlier, "As to the question of whether I should expect anyone to change their beliefs do to any argument I can put words to, the answer to that is also NO."

My point there was that God must give you understanding before anything I do or say can make a difference. So, in reality it is God not me.

How do you explain the difference in the belief of Predestination? Especially in the light that those who believe in Predestination are in the minority of Christian believers? Why do you believe you are right and that those who don't believe in Predestination are wrong?

I did not believe in predestination until very recently. Not too long ago I also believed that faith was a choice we made. Through bible study, serious discussion, the study of church history, prayer, and other readings I have come to the conclusion that God predestined his chosen. I believe that if a Christian subscribes to a completely free will approach that they are in error. However, they may believe the same of me.

My question is...Is that difference important enough to split the church over? Is that difference enough to call into question their Christianity? Absolutely not! Do to the fall we are fallible creatures. We make mistakes. As I have said before on the important issues we agree. A belief in predestination or the lack thereof has nothing to do with salvation.

You misunderstood the question. I wasn't asking about how you reached your conclusion, I was asking about the number of believers that subscribed to the faith issue. You said, "For a very high percentage of Christians this is a none issue." I was asking about how you calculated the percentage.

I understood your question, read what was in the parenthesis I anticipated your question and I don't have a study to show you. Sometimes I use common sense. oops...Now we must discuss who's common sense and why we all have different common sense right? There's no sense in discussing that...lol

No? You may want to do some research into the early Christian church during the first few years of its existence. Especially how they treated rival sects like the Gnostics.

hhmm...do you read all of what I say or just part of it? I answered that in the next sentence. Lots of things are done in the name of Christianity that are not Christian in nature. If someone blew up New York and said God told them to do it would you hang that on Christianity too?

If this is the case, then why do "Christians" like Benny Hinn not suffer the persecution of "true" Christians? How do you reconcile two groups of Christians who believe they are "true" yet point the finger at each other and claim the other is not?

This is exactly the point I tried to make above DV. We haven't killed Benny Hinn and don't plan too.

Oh my DV...this question does not even deserve an answer. People claim to be what they are not ALL the time. Let's move on.

What does it matter if you believe in Predestination?

God uses us for his purposes DV. Someone on this discussion board may be used someday to reach you. We are here for God's pleasure and purposes. Whether a Christian is a Calvinist or not, God's will be done. Amen!

Maybe I don't understand the whole Predestination thing. Hasn't God already made up his mind who has been called and who hasn't? Long before man was ever created?

You understand it perfectly God know's who...but I sure don't. I'm not going to write you off on my own.

I don't agree. I count Predestination and the path to salvation important issues, and Christians aren't united on those topics. What do you consider "important" issues?

Christians are united on the path to salvation DV. Please don't show me your info on the different beliefs again I get it. But remember what I said above in the Benny Hinn section.

Last I checked, Human Secularism wasn't a god. Nor are all atheists human secularists. I believe your statement is erroneous. Would you mind explaining?

I'm not talking about a conscious worshiping of self. We all have a god DV. For some of us it is the true God. For others it's money, or knowledge(as an end unto itself), or fame, or self, or _____ fill in the blank.

 

[Dark Virtue]

My point there was that God must give you understanding before anything I do or say can make a difference. So, in reality it is God not me.

So is it possible that God refuses to give some understanding? Isn't that the point of Predestination?

I did not believe in predestination until very recently. Not too long ago I also believed that faith was a choice we made. Through bible study, serious discussion, the study of church history, prayer, and other readings I have come to the conclusion that God predestined his chosen. I believe that if a Christian subscribes to a completely free will approach that they are in error. However, they may believe the same of me.

So which view is correct then?

My question is...Is that difference important enough to split the church over? Is that difference enough to call into question their Christianity? Absolutely not! Do to the fall we are fallible creatures. We make mistakes. As I have said before on the important issues we agree. A belief in predestination or the lack thereof has nothing to do with salvation.

Interesting. You said, "DUE TO THE FALL WE ARE FALLIBLE CREATURES". Weren't A&E fallible as well? After all, didn't they make the worst mistake of all?

Belief in Predestination has EVERYTHING to do with salvation, doesn't it? It determines how you seek salvation.

I understood your question, read what was in the parenthesis I anticipated your question and I don't have a study to show you. Sometimes I use common sense. oops...Now we must discuss who's common sense and why we all have different common sense right? There's no sense in discussing that...lol

LOL

hhmm...do you read all of what I say or just part of it? I answered that in the next sentence. Lots of things are done in the name of Christianity that are not Christian in nature. If someone blew up New York and said God told them to do it would you hang that on Christianity too?

Well you bring up an interesting point. How do you know God DIDN'T tell them to do it? Who are you to say who God speaks to and who he doesn't? God works in mysterious ways does he not? God's destroyed cities in the past, so why not New York? Where and how do you draw the line of whether or not God speaks to someone? Why should I believe that God speaks to YOU?

This is exactly the point I tried to make above DV. We haven't killed Benny Hinn and don't plan too.

LOL, I wasn't claiming anyone kill Benny Hinn. Let me be more specific. If Benny Hinn isn't a "true" Christian as many claim, why doesn't the majority of Christianity put a stop to his little charade?

Oh my DV...this question does not even deserve an answer. People claim to be what they are not ALL the time. Let's move on.

I'm sorry, but I think this question is valid, let me pose it once more: How do you reconcile two groups of Christians who believe they are "true" yet point the finger at each other and claim the other is not?

God uses us for his purposes DV. Someone on this discussion board may be used someday to reach you. We are here for God's pleasure and purposes. Whether a Christian is a Calvinist or not, God's will be done. Amen!

I thought that man couldn't prove God's existence? If that's the case, how can someone here "reach" me? I thought that was wholly up to God?

Would you mind citing a biblical source that claims we are here for God's pleasure? Thanks.

Christians are united on the path to salvation DV. Please don't show me your info on the different beliefs again I get it. But remember what I said above in the Benny Hinn section.

I don't understand how you can claim that Christians are united on the same path to salvation when Christians DIFFER on how to achieve salvation!

I'm not talking about a conscious worshiping of self. We all have a god DV. For some of us it is the true God. For others it's money, or knowledge(as an end unto itself), or fame, or self, or _____ fill in the blank.

Why do you feel the need to claim that everyone worships a god? Secular Humanism can't be defined as worshipping a god. Granted, some worship money, some knowledge, etc, but not EVERYONE has a god. Would you mind defining the term "god" in this case?

 

[Genesis1315]

Off topic...

In defense of Benny Hinn, if he has accepted Christ in his heart is he not a true Christian?

An answer is not really needed since we have not arrived at a general consensus one being a true Christian.

and now back on topic.....

Let me pose this question - 10 people are standing around at a party discussing their religions. The list of religions includes
# Christianity
# Islam
# Juche
# Hinduism
# Shinto
# Buddhism
# Neo Pagan
# Baha'i
# Sikhism
# Rastafarianism

Now, how many of those give a certainty of rewards in the afterlife?

(disclaimer: the above listed religions are just a sample and with the exception of Christianity, none were speficically chosen)

Gen

 

[Dark Virtue]

I've asked before, but I will ask again since I have yet to receive an answer. What is the definition of a "true" Christian. Above and beyond that, how do you know someone isn't a true Christian and who is?

Gen, you've brought this up a few times so I'd like to attack this topic head on.

You talk about the certainty of rewards in the afterlife. You believe that you understand what is required for your eternal reward, but according to other Christians, you have failed to meet that requirement. So how do you know your view is correct? What do you say to the Christian that believes in a different path to salvation, the one that doesn't believe your path is correct?

Every one of those religions you listed has their own rewards. Each one offers 100% certainty of that reward, all you have to do is meet the requirements. How does that differ from your outlook? The rewards may not all be the same, but the certainty of the reward for the "true believer" is there.

If these suicide bombers actually believe they will be greeted in heaven by Allah and 72 virgins and that this reward was their reward of choice from various religions, how do they differ from you and your choice of reward/religion?

 

[SLNT_FIR]

You cannot tell who is a "true" christian at first glance. You will have to be with them for awhile and see how they make choices, how they speak about things, how they act at church, how they behave around different relatives, people, friends, etc...

I've asked before, but I will ask again since I have yet to receive an answer. What is the definition of a "true" Christian. Above and beyond that, how do you know someone isn't a true Christian and who is?

We cannot tell whether you were or were not, because we can only interact with you through text, which leaves much left to be known about you. As you do not that much about us.
--
For a very blunt answer that you want yes or no, we cannot tell at first.

We needa spend time with them in person and that is that.

 

[Dark Virtue]

You cannot tell who is a "true" christian at first glance. You will have to be with them for awhile and see how they make choices, how they speak about things, how they act at church, how they behave around different relatives, people, friends, etc...

All you've said is that it takes a while to tell who is a "true" Christian and who isn't. I asked HOW you could tell, not how long it would take to tell.

We cannot tell whether you were or were not, because we can only interact with you through text, which leaves much left to be known about you. As you do not that much about us.

I'm not asking about myself, I'm asking in general.

 

[Genesis1315]

This is what I base my stance of one who accepts Christ as their Lord and Saviour can be marked as a True Christian

ROMANS
10:10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

10:11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

DV, you are the first that I have heard from or read that states that a suicide bomber will receive is reward no if's and's or but's. I had understood that they might, if they committed the act well enough. From what I have understood of the Noe-Pagan religions who believe in reincarnation, on one knows 100% if they made it to the next level. Only Christianity has stated 100% for sure.

Gen

 

[Dark Virtue]

This is what I base my stance of one who accepts Christ as their Lord and Saviour can be marked as a True Christian

Isn't that EVERY Christian though?

DV, you are the first that I have heard from or read that states that a suicide bomber will receive is reward no if's and's or but's. I had understood that they might, if they committed the act well enough. From what I have understood of the Noe-Pagan religions who believe in reincarnation, on one knows 100% if they made it to the next level. Only Christianity has stated 100% for sure.

Actually what I said was that they BELIEVED that's what their reward is, just like you believe what your reward is.

What I was trying to say was that you BELIEVE you have done what it takes to achieve 100% salvation, which is no different than a suicide bomber who BELIEVES he is doing what it takes to qualify for 100% salvation as well.

Hope that clears that up.