"Criticism of Final Fantasy VII" or "Grab your torches and pitchforks!"

Tek7

Tek7

CGA President, Tribe of Judah Founder & President
Staff member
Originally posted in thread Female characters in video games:

Tek7 said:
There is a bright light in the darkness, though. Final Fantasy VI features Terra and Celes, two strong female characters. FF6 is a great example of what developers can achieve when they create female characters with their own identities, strengths, and flaws. Unfortunately, Squaresoft had to go ruin it all with Tifa and Yufie, two weak stereotypes (like the rest of the cast) in Final Fantasy VII. I couldn't tolerate Final Fantasy VIII long enough to play past the first disc, but I did appreciate FFIX's Garnet.
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Atown said:
i think if your wanting to be objectional then u need to editoralize else where :rolleyes: :p

but honestly the FF8 characters and FF7 were just fine in my mind. also go play FFT because they were just fine.
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Atown said:
i think if your wanting to be objectional then u need to editoralize else where :rolleyes: :p

but honestly the FF8 characters and FF7 were just fine in my mind.
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I know I'm likely the only sentient being in the universe who didn't like FF8. For the record, I like FF7, I just thought the characters were weak stereotypes:
  • Barrett as the African American single father whose gruff exterior hides a heart of gold
  • Tifa as the childhood friend with the tight white shirt and chronic smile
  • Yuffie as the spoiled, bratty rich ninja girl
  • Cid as the callous but brilliant pilot who enjoys fast planes and cigarettes
  • Vincent Valentine as the dark and mysterious, gun-toting hero of questionable allegiance
  • Sephiroth as the feminine-looking villain with his own "singing loudly in Latin to make things look scary" theme song
  • Cait Sith as the mandatory cute mascot character and comic relief
  • Cloud as the archetypal anti-hero super-soldier who wrestles with his inner demon by moping around and refusing to care about others because the world is pain. Shares authority with Edward Scissorhands and Squall as the emo triumvirate.
But aside from weak characters, it's an otherwise great game (which, of course, makes it only a good and grossly overrated RPG). The story is interesting, the settings are beautifully rendered, the graphics and art are fantastic, and the battle system is one of my favorites.

P.S. I liked Aeris.
 
Tek7 said:
I know I'm likely the only sentient being in the universe who didn't like FF8. For the record, I like FF7, I just thought the characters were weak stereotypes:
  • Barrett as the African American single father whose gruff exterior hides a heart of gold
  • Tifa as the childhood friend with the tight white shirt and chronic smile
  • Yuffie as the spoiled, bratty rich ninja girl
  • Cid as the callous but brilliant pilot who enjoys fast planes and cigarettes
  • Vincent Valentine as the dark and mysterious, gun-toting hero of questionable allegiance
  • Sephiroth as the feminine-looking villain with his own "singing loudly in Latin to make things look scary" theme song
  • Cait Sith as the mandatory cute mascot character and comic relief
  • Cloud as the archetypal anti-hero super-soldier who wrestles with his inner demon by moping around and refusing to care about others because the world is pain. Shares authority with Edward Scissorhands and Squall as the emo triumvirate.
But aside from weak characters, it's an otherwise great game (which, of course, makes it only a good and grossly overrated RPG). The story is interesting, the settings are beautifully rendered, the graphics and art are fantastic, and the battle system is one of my favorites.

P.S. I liked Aeris.
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No actually your one of the many who did not like FF8 and apparently loved 9.

FF8, allbeit it was a love story and was kinda ghetto to begin with, had amazing character development, nice twists, a completely different style of magic, summons (with penalties), abilities. Yes it was based on FF6 but so was the system in FF9.

When playing 8, there was a sense of "o rly? whats next?" it always made you curious and the intersections with laguna confuse you until late into disk 4 and it was worth it. Triple Triad was an amazing mini-game strewn before it as well. i even played TT online for several years afterwards with a clan oddly named "AVALANCHE" who i think are actually still active.

Final fantasy 9 -

Had a nice storyline, good graphics, and was boring as can be. I fully mastered 6,7,8, and 9 and i was disappointed with 9. i mastered it and was like....... is that it?? The ghost quests,
the ending fighting "fate,"
, and the storyline was just lame. the characters developed very little. eiko did nothing, vivi a little, rust bucket had prolly the most, amarant nothing, garnet was...... more stereotypical than any other FF princess/main female character imo. FF9 was also waaaaaaay toooooooo easy. i breezed right through it in 30 some odd hours making it one of the shortest FF games available.



On the lines of FF women -

There was nothing wrong with tifa and i think her development as a character was more completed in the essence of her role in the FF7 movie.

Yuffy - she was not actually rich, she was poor and thats why she was stealing materia. her family may have had money (since they had that big temple), but there was a reason she was trying to steal from you guys. If she was rich then she would have just bought the materia.

Aeris..... if you want something to complain about its the fact that once you level her, get her geared up, get her 4th limit breaker.... she freaking dies. end of story.

The only thing wrong with FF women is shiva >.> and various skantly clad enemies.
 
Tek7 said:
  • Cloud as the archetypal anti-hero super-soldier who wrestles with his inner demon by moping around and refusing to care about others because the world is pain. Shares authority with Edward Scissorhands and Squall as the emo triumvirate.
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I tip my hat to you sir, that was fantastic.
 
Actually, I'd like to point out that Final Fantasy in general makes a lot of milage with Archetypal characters... I guess from my point of view I've played and enjoyed enough FF games to recognize the Archetypes and see them as part of the FF "feel" or "mystique."

Examples:
Tifa === whatserface, the black-haired girl in FF8 === Garnet === Lulu etc.
Aeris === totally Yuna... she's the more tortured heroic female, as opposed to the "strong, undergirl" character like Tifa.
Vincent Valentine === Auron. I mean, as soon as you see anyone in an FF game wearing a big red suit with an over-the-mouth collar who doesn't say much, you HAVE to know that they're a vampire. Or undead. Or just dead.
Cid === Cid === Cid === Cid === Cid === Cid === Cid === you get the point.
 
That's right "Gerbil-mat" is the ultimate Summon :p

Tek7 said:
I know I'm likely the only sentient being in the universe who didn't like FF8. For the record, I like FF7, I just thought the characters were weak stereotypes:
  • Barrett as the African American single father whose gruff exterior hides a heart of gold
  • Tifa as the childhood friend with the tight white shirt and chronic smile
  • Yuffie as the spoiled, bratty rich ninja girl
  • Cid as the callous but brilliant pilot who enjoys fast planes and cigarettes
  • Vincent Valentine as the dark and mysterious, gun-toting hero of questionable allegiance
  • Sephiroth as the feminine-looking villain with his own "singing loudly in Latin to make things look scary" theme song
  • Cait Sith as the mandatory cute mascot character and comic relief
  • Cloud as the archetypal anti-hero super-soldier who wrestles with his inner demon by moping around and refusing to care about others because the world is pain. Shares authority with Edward Scissorhands and Squall as the emo triumvirate.
But aside from weak characters, it's an otherwise great game (which, of course, makes it only a good and grossly overrated RPG). The story is interesting, the settings are beautifully rendered, the graphics and art are fantastic, and the battle system is one of my favorites.

P.S. I liked Aeris.
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While you are correct about many of the stereotypes in Final Fantasy 7 you have to put it in historical context. The Playstion was not a popular gaming system before the introduction of FF 7, Crash Bandicoot and the dual analog controller. What was that FMV game the Playstation had on it "Sewer Attack? Anyway my point is while the innovation in FF 7 was non-character most of America had not been exposed to some of it's stereotypes that where much more common in anime (the whole feminine looking male thing is more common in Japan). When I got the game I had not been exposed to anime (that's in name as I did not know what it was called), cyberpunk or unfortunately much of the mature content FF 7 contained and I don't think a lot of America had either so it was "newer" to some people than others (it was kind of a loss of innocence leading children from Nintendo to Playstation with FF...sigh). If FF 7 hadn't been so different I would not have cared for it.

Stereotypes don't have to be bad either if they are well done.

I actually liked 8 over 7,9 and 10 because it was different being a romance story (and it didn't have much or any Taoist undertones). However I also felt it had one of the weaker villain line ups in gaming. Seifer is nothing more than a childhood bully, never making it to a fearsome level and the sorceress who you are really fighting is never really characterized at all
(she wants to achieve time compression why and what that means is barely mentioned).
I think the vast difference in plotline centering compared to previous FF's either made people love it or hate 8 so I don't think you are alone Tek (and yes the Gerbil still loves you :p).

My biggest problem with all FFs is that like all Japanese RPG's it's written from a Taoist, Humanistic point of view.
That wasn't just fate you were fighting at the end of FF 9 that Crystal thing was supposed to be responsible for creating everything as in the crystal should = God and while you don't destroy it you do defy and defeat it (seemingly with the power of human friendship, la, de, da).

Tek7 said:
P.S. I liked Aeris.
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I think they put extra effort to make her likeable so people would feel something when she died. I also found her to be stereotypical too though (the innocent loving girl who hides a secret past and power = I would never have guessed) Ok so everyone knows she died I am just playing it safe with spoilers :p.

Atown said:
Triple Triad was an amazing mini-game strewn before it as well. i even played TT online for several years afterwards with a clan oddly named "AVALANCHE" who i think are actually still active.
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Wasn't "Avalanche" the name of the rebel group from Final Fantasy 7 or are you just saying it's odd considering it was a FF 8 based group? I guess they could have called themselves "The SeeDs of Balamb Garden"... but that was kind of hokey in FF 8 to start with :p

Atown said:
There was nothing wrong with tifa and I think her development as a character was more completed in the essence of her role in the FF7 movie.

The only thing wrong with FF women is shiva >.> and various scantly clad enemies.
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Actually I find Tifa to be a tough, over breasted female, one of the most stereotypical characters out there (I did not see the movie though). There was that inferred sex between Cloud and Tifa in FF 7 too >.<

If you want to talk about stereotypical Yuffie = Selphie = Riku. I think she changed her hair and got a new weapon for each FF and that was about it.

While I used to be a big FF fan I've pretty much quit FF having never finished FF 10x2 (or as I call it "if Charlie's Angels was a RPG and Square needed money") and I still have FF 11 in the wrapper. I did not commit the respective FF plotlines to memory but if anyone doubts my FF credentials 4 out of the five posters in my room are Squaresoft, my played time on each FF always goes over 99 hours and in FF 9... I AM THE KING OF THE JUMP ROPE!... yes I have no life to having achieved that XD.

BE SURE TO PUT SPOILERS FOR FF 11 if you talk about its plot as I haven't played it yet, ty.
 
FF10, FF10-2, and FF12 are the only ones i played. They mix the characters up a bit but yet, the main hero is still just the avarage joe (so they tried to make it). The characters kinda lack depth just because you don't customize them as well as 10 (the sphere grid was kinda annoying, but you got to know your guys). I say lack of character depth really can lead to a bad game, but this isn't. And watching the opening cut scean 2ce really mixed me up. It was cool but i just got confused so i think that might have added the the lack of depth.
 
[delurks for a second for a Final Fantasy thread]

Atown said:
FF8, allbeit it was a love story and was kinda ghetto to begin with, had amazing character development, nice twists, a completely different style of magic, summons (with penalties), abilities. Yes it was based on FF6 but so was the system in FF9.
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Which I would call completely imbalanced. GFs too powerful and spells near limitless. And don't get me started on the limits. This required Square to overcompensate with endgame monsters, pretty dulling the battle system down to reusing limits or the most powerful GFs over and over and doing little else.

Final fantasy 9 -

Had a nice storyline, good graphics, and was boring as can be. I fully mastered 6,7,8, and 9 and i was disappointed with 9. i mastered it and was like....... is that it?? The ghost quests,
the ending fighting "fate,"
, and the storyline was just lame. the characters developed very little. eiko did nothing, vivi a little, rust bucket had prolly the most, amarant nothing, garnet was...... more stereotypical than any other FF princess/main female character imo. FF9 was also waaaaaaay toooooooo easy. i breezed right through it in 30 some odd hours making it one of the shortest FF games available.
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I disagree. FF9 had an excellent, engaging story and it did a great job developing characters. Yeah, Steiner was annoying and Amarant wasn't really developed much beyond the whole "I do things for myself" additude. But there's a lot of character development with the other guys. And personally, I like Zidane a hundred times more than Cloud or Squall.

Most of all, FF9 was fun - it was more interactive, more engaging, and one of the best, well-balanced battle systems in an FF game not named Tactics, which is a lot more than can be said about the battle systems in FF6,7 and 8.

On one other note, I loved Beatrix as a character. Very strong female role with killer fighting abilities, and she's hardly one dimensional despite being a supporting character.

[goes back to lurking]
 
Darn I wanted to Rant about how Horrible the FF7 Movie was but I have not played the games so i cannot give a fair assessment of the games. However I did enjoy the Dragon Quest 4 or 5 it was never released in the USA and was the last of the Japan only ones. So that is as close to the FF series as I have gotten. Which isn't close at all lol. And I know Atown is gonna get all sad because I thought the FF7 movie was HORRIBLE!!! I love movies and love a good story and they art of a movie. And FF7 had not real meat in the story line from a movie standpoint now from a fan standpoint maybe it was really good.
 
I hated FFX. Stupid web skill thingy, Titus was too girly, and the summon thingies looked too dark in my opinion. I did like parts of 6 and 3. ^_^
 
Keero said:
I hated FFX. Stupid web skill thingy, Titus was too girly, and the summon thingies looked too dark in my opinion.
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I put down FFX after about an hour of play. I wasn't about to play yet another FF game with a protagonist I wanted to punch in the neck.

For my part, I liked Zidane. He had some baggage, but he didn't exude the "The world is pain" or "Nobody understands me" attitudes that were the identifying characteristic of CloudSquall. Plus I found myself warming up to the actor's troop thing. And I was pleased to see a return to a fantasy setting.

Tidus just plain got on my nerves. Square hyped the voice acting, but it was one of the worst things about the game. Same reason I put down the Naruto PS2 games (that were otherwise quite fun). (Of course, it's the same reason I can't watch dubbed anime--that, and series like Naruto and Bleach are over 100 episodes behind in the US and I saw these episodes subtitled a few years ago.) When are companies going to learn that bad voice acting makes games unplayable?

Some people go so far as to strip the English language audio out of a US release and restore the original Japanese audio. It's commonly called an "undub" and it works quite well, since most games feature subtitles.

</offtopic>

It'll be interesting to see how Square handles a female protagonist in FFXIII. We've had five games with male protagonists and I've wanted to throw three out of five out the window of a skyscraper. (I liked Zidane and I could tolerate Vaan because Balthier was pretty cool.)
 
I know I'm slightly behind the times but I must speak up about the idea that Aerith was made oh-so-much-more accessible than the other characters because she was going to die.

I remember, when Advent Children was coming out reading an interview with Chet Nomura where he claimed that the game was originally designed with Tifa dying and not Aerith. It was not until a few months before the game was released that Aerith took Tifa's place as the "sacrifice" and Tifa ended up taking on all of Aerith's subsequent roles. In fact, there are about 4 places in the game post-Aerith-termination where Tifa's lines seem very scarily like what Aerith -- and not Tifa -- would say. This is a result of the last-minute pre-production switch.

The reason you like Aerith so much is because, well -- she dies. Chances are you would like Tifa just as much.
 
Neirai the Forgiven said:
The reason you like Aerith so much is because, well -- she dies. Chances are you would like Tifa just as much.
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I think there's more to it than that. I've always had a soft spot for White Mage characters, likely because game designers tend to borrow more heavily from the "sacred feminine" concept for healer characters.

There are likely a number of reasons why I found Aeris more endearing than any other character in the game: she had a childlike innocence, which contrasted with "The World Is Pain" (or TWIP) attitudes of many of the other characters. She was slightly flirtatious and was more realistically proportioned than Tifa (the same reason why I admit to playing Xianghua in Soul Calibur II while I'm somewhat embarrassed to play as Taki). Aeris lived above the conflict at the center of the story; she was, in a sense, existing on a higher plane than the others. In a story flooded with TWIP attitudes, scenes prominently featuring Aeris were refreshing relief.

Aeris was the classic priestess while Tifa was the classic well-endowed osananajimi ("childhood friend" in Japanese). I suppose it comes down to which archetype you prefer.
 
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