Did Jesus Exist?

[Watcher]

Quote[/b] ]How am I taking Jesus' teaching out of context?  It seems pretty clear.  I'm not saying Holding was wrong in defending his position, I'm saying he's wrong in HOW he did it.  Nor am I defending ANY action that serves to demoralize or put down anyone.
At some point in an argument like this, someone has to rise above the rhetoric and name calling.  Holding isn't willing to do so.  THAT, in my humble opinion, is very un-Christian.  I don't see how anyone can condone the delivery of his defense.
How would you have reacted if I took a page of the Holding Book of Defense and started calling you names?  
There's a right way and a wrong way.  Holding chose the wrong way.

Matthew 5:39 deals with the law of retaliation. He abolished physical retaliation all together by appealing to a higher righteousness. Holding is guilty of extreme sarcasm and that is about all I’ll give you there. I do admit he can go a little far, but at the same time he’s human too. He’s going to make mistakes. He’s been going round and round for roughly 5 years with the ‘Three Musketeers’ and all of their debates get heated and are filled with sarcasm and accusations peppered with humor.

I will not discount Holding’s scholarship at all. I believe there is no reason to do that whatsoever. The false accusations thrown at him by Trubee were answered in the link I posted for you. If you get past the first ‘clown comment’ you will see that Trubee has taken liberty with his accusations and they are nothing more than slanderous distortions.  

Quote[/b] ]I'm afraid you my still be laboring under the impression that I deny that there is any evidence that Christ ever existed.  I have said before that it is quite possible.  The difference is that I don't believe he was Divine or exactly as the Bible has mythified him.  (Sorry, not sure if mythified is a word, but it works for me).

This may be another topic entirely, but I believe they WERE expecting Christ to return, and soon, within their lifetimes.

Fair enough. But the disciples were not expecting him to return within their lifetimes until the ascension and subsequent ministry and establishment of the Church. What I was referring to is the time right after His death and burial. They were in fear for their lives because they knew the Sanhedrin would be looking for them next. The disciples were not expecting a resurrection at all. It was only after they had seen Him risen did they understand and were then renewed with a fervor that can only be explained by a bodily resurrection. Thousands saw Jesus risen and Paul wrote to those contemporaries that had indeed seen Him.

Paul would not have invented or sanctioned such a myth if it were not true. Either someone stole Jesus’ body, or He was resurrected. And if the disciples stole His body to create a mythical resurrection, they would not then go on to commit suicide and die the most horrid and brutal deaths known to man just to validate such a lie to the masses. It just doesn’t make sense. What does make sense was they saw Jesus resurrected, and then saw Him ascend to Heaven. They were then filled with the Holy Spirit and the church was established. They went on to boldly preach Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection without one ounce of fear. It’s the only explanation that has merit.

Quote[/b] ]Just a few questions...how did God give every one of us an inclination towards Him?  How did he do that for the Sumerians, Aborigines and Incans?  

How is it possible, then, for me to have a full understanding of the subject if I do NOT have the power of the Holy Spirit in me?

This explains why every single civilization in history worshipped Gods. People all around the world have always believed in some kind of afterlife—some reward after death. Eternal blessedness was, in the view of the ancient pagans, reserved for those only who were distinguished for their exalted virtues, and who were accordingly admitted into the society of the gods. This is the inclination that I speak of. God chose to reveal himself through the nation of Israel and until that time, He saw fit to allow man to live in ignorance. How did God judge those men? No doubt according to His moral and ethical law that is self-evident and is what separates us from the beasts of the earth. I realize that’s another thread in and of itself.

The fact you don’t have the Holy Spirit is what keeps you from having a COMPLETE understanding of the revelation of Jesus Christ. However, you do not need the Holy Spirit to understand what Jesus did for you, to accept it, surrender your life to Him, and to be saved from death.

Quote[/b] ]That's why I'm here, to learn from you.  And I hope I bring something to the table to teach you.

I truly believe we have a lot to teach each other and truly appreciate you and respect your opinions even though I don’t always agree with them. I’ve already learned a great deal from you and I look forward to our future discussions with time permitting. Class is starting up for me again and my time will be limited as well.

Quote[/b] ]How can you promise that?  There have been many that have looked for God and never found Him.  They were stronger and smarter than I.

Because that is what His Word says and I have witnessed it first hand. There have been many that claim to have looked for God, but I truly believe it was their hardened hearts that kept them from finding Him. God will only reveal Himself when we want Him more than anything else in our life. And until we reach that point of brokenness, we are unable to accept our sin and our need for a savior. I’m sure you’ve read this little story, but it’s a perfect illustration for what I’m trying to say:

A young man, bursting with pride, came to the great philosopher Socrates. His quest was wisdom. The young man approached Socrates and said, "O great Socrates, I come to you for knowledge." Socrates saw through the young man's compliments and began leading the juvenile through the streets. Their destination? The wild, unruly oceanfront.

Socrates took the lad by the hand and led him into the water until he was knee-deep in crashing waves. Socrates inquired, "What do you want?"

The young man replied with a sly smile, "Knowledge, O wise Socrates."

With all his strength, Socrates pushed the young man's head under water and held it there for 30 seconds. He then asked again, "What do you want?"

His young friend sputtered, "Wisdom, O great and wise Socrates."

After plunging the young man's head beneath the waves and holding him there for 40 seconds, Socrates repeated his question. The young man's reply was: "Knowledge, O wise and wonderful."

Down the young man went again. This time, Socrates let him stay under the saltwater, waves lapping across his face, for 50 seconds. Upon hearing Socrates' question the fourth time, the young man screamed, "Air! I need air!"

So Socrates was then able to make his point:"When you want knowledge as you have just wanted air, then you will have knowledge.


When you want God as much as that young man wanted air, you’ll find Him.