i was just thinking bout random stuff in the car and it came to me..... Did pharoh really have free will? becuase the Bible says he hardened pharohs heart..... ?
did Pharoh Have free will??
- Thread starter Atown
- Start date
.... but his heart was hardened befopre the miracles....
Avesther
New Member
The question really isn't, did pharoh or God hardened pharohs heart, rather, was pharohs heart ever "softened" to let Gods people go? Pharohs own actions indicated he never softened his position..rather, said to Moses take your people and run just as bandaid until he could figure out his next move.
As they say, the proof is in the pudding. And pharohs own actions, even after Isreal left Egypt, proofs his heart was never to let Isreal go. He chased them to dead sea. After encountering God as a pillar of fire barring his access to the Isrealites and seeing the dead sea held back, he continued to chase them into the sea.
Those are not the actions of a man who ever intended to let Isreal go, they are the actions of a man who never intended to be so.
If his heart was ever to let Isreal go, you'd think coming face to face with God at the sea would have caused pharoh to turn back. He even seen the hands of God hold back the sea, dry up the ground, so that the Isrealites could cross it.
No, the moment he could, he chased after them. Instead of comeing to the realization that God is God, he stood before God and denied Gods authority. Definatly not the heart or the actions of a man whose heart was never softened to Gods pleas to let his people go.
As they say, the proof is in the pudding. And pharohs own actions, even after Isreal left Egypt, proofs his heart was never to let Isreal go. He chased them to dead sea. After encountering God as a pillar of fire barring his access to the Isrealites and seeing the dead sea held back, he continued to chase them into the sea.
Those are not the actions of a man who ever intended to let Isreal go, they are the actions of a man who never intended to be so.
If his heart was ever to let Isreal go, you'd think coming face to face with God at the sea would have caused pharoh to turn back. He even seen the hands of God hold back the sea, dry up the ground, so that the Isrealites could cross it.
No, the moment he could, he chased after them. Instead of comeing to the realization that God is God, he stood before God and denied Gods authority. Definatly not the heart or the actions of a man whose heart was never softened to Gods pleas to let his people go.
Dark Virtue
New Member
Deftly manuevered, yet you avoided the real answer.
We will never know what would have happened because God intervened and hardened Pharaoh's heart. Let's assume that you are correct and Pharaoh would have consistently said NO. If that is the case, then why did God find it necessary to harden his heart on several occasions? I believe it was a total of three times.
The direct answer is YES, God interfered with Pharaoh's Free Will. No if, ands or buts about it.
The real question should be WHY.
We will never know what would have happened because God intervened and hardened Pharaoh's heart. Let's assume that you are correct and Pharaoh would have consistently said NO. If that is the case, then why did God find it necessary to harden his heart on several occasions? I believe it was a total of three times.
The direct answer is YES, God interfered with Pharaoh's Free Will. No if, ands or buts about it.
The real question should be WHY.
Avesther
New Member
He acted as man whose intention was to never let the Isrealites go. God didn't have to hardened his heart, it was already hardened. It is so appearant that God intervened to soften pharohs heart long enough for God to set the next cog of his plan in motion and then let pharohs heart harden agains the isrealites to see the plan come to fruition.
Avesther
New Member
When did God harden Pharohs heart? Remember, to God, the past, the present and the future has already happened in his eye. When did God harden Pharohs heart, before Pharoh was born? It is entirely possible and within the realm of Gods nature. Can't dismiss it just because you don't understand it.
Psalm 139:13, God knits us together, he instills in us the tools which he latter would like us to use to his glory. Whether that be a loving heart or stubborn heart.
Psalm 139:16, God ordains all our days before even one comes to pass. He knows the events and paths he will place in front of us, he has planned each one out according to his will.
We also know that the pharohs that were in power during the time of Moses were not the same elite that was there when Jacob was Prime Minister. The pharoh and ruling elite of Moses time were hateful towards the Hebrews, they were predispositioned already with a hardened heart towards Isreal.
God hardened their hearts long before the events leading up to the exodus. But not all choose to keep hate and fear towards the Hebrews, many Egyptians, ruling elite included, fled with the Hebrews. So we know some exercised freewill while others continued in slavery to their predispositions.
Psalm 139:13, God knits us together, he instills in us the tools which he latter would like us to use to his glory. Whether that be a loving heart or stubborn heart.
Psalm 139:16, God ordains all our days before even one comes to pass. He knows the events and paths he will place in front of us, he has planned each one out according to his will.
We also know that the pharohs that were in power during the time of Moses were not the same elite that was there when Jacob was Prime Minister. The pharoh and ruling elite of Moses time were hateful towards the Hebrews, they were predispositioned already with a hardened heart towards Isreal.
God hardened their hearts long before the events leading up to the exodus. But not all choose to keep hate and fear towards the Hebrews, many Egyptians, ruling elite included, fled with the Hebrews. So we know some exercised freewill while others continued in slavery to their predispositions.
Dark Virtue
New Member
[b said:
So why did He do it?
Consequently, it doesn't matter WHY, the fact is He DID, which means He interfered with Pharoah's Free Will.
Not to mention the fact that God hardened his heart SEVERAL times.
Use some deductive reasoning...God was making SURE Pharaoh wouldn't change his mind. By doing so, God interfered with Pharaoh's Free Will. That's it end of story. You can argue why till you're blue in the face, but facts are facts, God screwed with Free Will.
It's not like it's the only time He did it either, it's just one of the most blatant. Every time He appeared to someone, everytime He spoke to someone, wouldn't that be altering someone's Free Will? Isn't that one of the excuses Christians make today for God's absence? I've heard that several times on this board. So why wasn't it a bad thing to interfere with Free Will back in the day?
Take the Garden of Eden. Put two naive beings in the middle of it, then add the serpent, who is described as the craftiest of all the beasts in the field. Who let him into the Garden of Eden? Who allowed him to communicate with Eve? Talk about a set up. Again, HUGE interference with Man's Free Will, which ultimately sets up the First Sin. You don't think God didn't want or expect that to happen? God set Man up to fall. That was His intention after all. Sure, Man had Free Will to choose right or wrong, but when you put a naive person up against the craftiest of all animals, what do you THINK is going to happen?
The bottom line is, in the Bible, God constantly interfered with Man's Free Will. It's plain, it's evident, it's the truth.
EDIT: Added the following from myjewishlearning.com
[b said:
[b said:
Avesther
New Member
[b said:
Are you suggesting that you could comprehend Gods will? Are you saying that you should be some how on an equal understanding with God?
[b said:
You did an end run around my arguement, it does change the validity of my arguement though. He was predisposed to be against the Jews to begin with, knowing full well that Pharoh would not soften his heart, God purposely put him in power. Why, to show the Hebrews and the Egyptians that he was God.
[b said:
But isn't this what you keep saying that you want, God to reveal himself to you on your terms, so you could ask him your question?
[b said:
You have not factually, emotionally or spiritually shown that indeed that is what he has done.
[b said:
Are you actually arguing that without choice we still have freewill? So what, God allowed Adam and Eve the opportunity to sin, God did not choose it for them. If you remove the ability to choose, you also remove the most important determining factor that defines freewill.
God gave Adam and Eve a choice: Do it my way or do it your way. In no way did he manipulate freewill.
[b said:
Look whos the expert of Gods intention... You are blatantly twisting scripture to what you think it should be. Who are you trying to deceive in doing this?
Dark Virtue
New Member
[b said:
Not at all. I'm simply pointing out that you admitted God interfered with Pharaoh's Free Will even though He didn't have to.
[b said:
I agree. Doesn't seem like something an omnibenevolent being would do though, don't you think? He lets His chosen people be put into slavery and suffering, then creates even more suffering and death to show how powerful He is. Nice.
[b said:
Not necessarily, though that would be the best way. If God is indeed omniscient, I think He could figure out what would trip my belief switch better than I. This is besides the point, do you agree or disagree that God's appearances and interferences in the OT constitute a violation of Man's Free Will?
[b said:
How can you say that, do you have some different Bible than mine? Tell me how talking to Moses wasn't a violation of his free will. How did God not violate Pharoah's Free Will? How did God not violate Noah's Free Will?
[b said:
You're missing the point, this isn't about the removal of choices, it's about the MANIPULATION of those choices. God has a long history of manipulating the "Free" Will of Man.
[b said:
WRONG. By creating the serpent, placing it in the Garden of Eden and letting it coerce Eve into sinning, God manipulated their will. It was GOD's will that Man sin. If that statement weren't correct, I would think an omniscient omnimax being would have done things differently.
[b said:
What exactly am I twisting? If God didn't want the world to turn out the way it has then He either A) Wanted it this way or B) Wasn't able to have it turn out another way.
If there's another logical answer, I'm all ears.
I see you didn't bother tackling the arguments I quoted either.
Gandhi
New Member
[b said:
Would that mean that before god even made adam and eve he knew that they were going to go for that apple. Which means he wanted us to fail.
Egypt. When you see it in the Bible, it is a picture of sin. Sorry to any Egyptians, but the mummified lil' darlin's are wicked! They were comparing the mighty works of God to what their magicians could do! To add to the Godly information that you have already received herein:
http://www.apologeticspress.org/scrspeak/2003/ss-03-22.htm
And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I stretch forth mine hand upon Egypt, and bring out the children of Israel from among them. Exodus 6:5
The Egyptians and Israelites needed a sign! Sound familiar?
Every parent has regretfully said, "Because I said so!" ...and that is the way God does things! He knows and sees forever! We all get to be robots, or we have the free will to choose. There are no other options! For some reason, that is just simply how it had to be! God knew Pharaoh from the beginning of time. He knew His heart. When it comes right down to it, as this thread seems to be saying by Godly men, God would not harden a man who loved and served Him in the first place.
Perhaps the case may be that this hardening was something that happens over time, inevitably.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, Romans 1:22
And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Romans 1:28
Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; I Timothy 4:2
http://www.apologeticspress.org/scrspeak/2003/ss-03-22.htm
And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I stretch forth mine hand upon Egypt, and bring out the children of Israel from among them. Exodus 6:5
The Egyptians and Israelites needed a sign! Sound familiar?
Every parent has regretfully said, "Because I said so!" ...and that is the way God does things! He knows and sees forever! We all get to be robots, or we have the free will to choose. There are no other options! For some reason, that is just simply how it had to be! God knew Pharaoh from the beginning of time. He knew His heart. When it comes right down to it, as this thread seems to be saying by Godly men, God would not harden a man who loved and served Him in the first place.
Perhaps the case may be that this hardening was something that happens over time, inevitably.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, Romans 1:22
And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Romans 1:28
Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; I Timothy 4:2
Dark Virtue
New Member
Eh?
Nice info, but it doesn't address the point at hand.
I disagree that hardening of the heart happens over time. I also disagree with Peon's hypothesis that God hardened Pharaoh's heart before he was born.
Why?
Because God hardened Pharaoh's heart ON MORE THAN ONE OCCASSION. Three times I believe, during the course of Moses' asking to let God's people go.
All this is besides the point.
Marcy, would you mind addressing the point?
1. Did God harden Pharaoh's heart?
2. Did this intervention alter/modify Pharaoh's Free Will?
I believe the logical answer is YES to both questions.
If you don't agree, would you mind explaining why?
Thanks!
Nice info, but it doesn't address the point at hand.
I disagree that hardening of the heart happens over time. I also disagree with Peon's hypothesis that God hardened Pharaoh's heart before he was born.
Why?
Because God hardened Pharaoh's heart ON MORE THAN ONE OCCASSION. Three times I believe, during the course of Moses' asking to let God's people go.
All this is besides the point.
Marcy, would you mind addressing the point?
1. Did God harden Pharaoh's heart?
2. Did this intervention alter/modify Pharaoh's Free Will?
I believe the logical answer is YES to both questions.
If you don't agree, would you mind explaining why?
Thanks!
I feel that I did address the issue at hand! Yes, I agree with your logic here. I said all the above to say that God had a purpose and the main one was to give the sign the people wanted. Yes, He could have done anything, but I am thinking that maybe He felt that...(and I hate to phrase it like this because in spite of God being able to show wrath, I do not think He has a hateful place in His Spirit besides the things listed in the Bible that He hates), He had to show the signs that they were accustomed to. Perhaps He felt they needed to have the magicians and things that they were believing in to be cast down. In other words, because they wanted magic, or something that they could visibly witness, He gave them signs. He wanted to get the Israelites out of Egypt, the Egyptians to know that He is the LORD, and He was removing Jacob's bones, to name the few that I know. He had a purpose and as usual, even through storms, it was for the good of everyone concerned...that wanted Him and would listen. To the rest, it was His attempt to get their attention. In addition the site I gave is perfectly on topic, it concerns the hardening of Pharoah's heart.
I would like to give this verse. God is not sitting on His Throne as some ogre, hating every thing that has breathe, or trying to....ugh! all the stuff you like to say about Him...there are only a handful of things that He hates:
These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood.
An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren. Proverbs 6:16
I would like to give this verse. God is not sitting on His Throne as some ogre, hating every thing that has breathe, or trying to....ugh! all the stuff you like to say about Him...there are only a handful of things that He hates:
These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood.
An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren. Proverbs 6:16
Dark Virtue
New Member
Let me clarify.
You are saying that:
1. God DID harden Pharaoh's heart on more than one occassion and that,
2. By doing so, He interfered with Pharaoh's Free Will.
Is that correct?
You are saying that:
1. God DID harden Pharaoh's heart on more than one occassion and that,
2. By doing so, He interfered with Pharaoh's Free Will.
Is that correct?
Watcher
New Member
Pharaoh had the 'free will' to let the Israelites go long before Moses came on the scene. Let's not forget, God has free will too and, guess what, God's will prevailed.
It never ceases to amaze me that we are so quick to overlook the obvious truths even when they're staring us right in the face. I'll try to elaborate more later if I have time.
It never ceases to amaze me that we are so quick to overlook the obvious truths even when they're staring us right in the face. I'll try to elaborate more later if I have time.
Dark Virtue
New Member
Well said, but beside the point.
Obviously, if God is omnimax, then His will comes first.
The point that I am stressing is that God interferes with Man's Free Will.
Claim sovereignty or anything else you want. The simple fact is that Man doesn't have "Free" Will. We may have the right to choose but that doesn't stop God from weighing the options or interfering with the choice making process.
You're only answer half of the question, the half that suits you. Yes, Pharaoh had Free Will to make decisions, HOWEVER, God intervened and removed Pharaoh's Free Will when it came to certain decisions to show how mighty He was. Nor did God only do it once, but on several occasions with Pharaoh, and He has a long history of interfering with the Free Will of Man. Examples: The Garden of Eden, the Flood, the Exodus, the Tower of Babel, et al.
Obviously, if God is omnimax, then His will comes first.
The point that I am stressing is that God interferes with Man's Free Will.
Claim sovereignty or anything else you want. The simple fact is that Man doesn't have "Free" Will. We may have the right to choose but that doesn't stop God from weighing the options or interfering with the choice making process.
You're only answer half of the question, the half that suits you. Yes, Pharaoh had Free Will to make decisions, HOWEVER, God intervened and removed Pharaoh's Free Will when it came to certain decisions to show how mighty He was. Nor did God only do it once, but on several occasions with Pharaoh, and He has a long history of interfering with the Free Will of Man. Examples: The Garden of Eden, the Flood, the Exodus, the Tower of Babel, et al.
Thaddius
Member
I want to comment here about free will. This is how I understand it myself.
It does not mean we have every freedom, it just means we have freedom to make choices. What choices we are allowed to make are not up to us. The assumtion that is made with free will is that we are free to choose anything, and thats not the case. God does interfere and has throughout the Bible and even today. Every morning I wake up, I make an active choice on what I will do throughout that day. When and where God intereferes, I have no idea, just as pharoh most likely had no idea God was hardening his heart. I make my choices within the confines of the day I am given, and each day I have to make choices again.
Again, these are my thoughts on it. I do not assume that I have complete freedom, just as living in America I do not. While I am free, there are still things I do not understand and cannot do.
Cory
It does not mean we have every freedom, it just means we have freedom to make choices. What choices we are allowed to make are not up to us. The assumtion that is made with free will is that we are free to choose anything, and thats not the case. God does interfere and has throughout the Bible and even today. Every morning I wake up, I make an active choice on what I will do throughout that day. When and where God intereferes, I have no idea, just as pharoh most likely had no idea God was hardening his heart. I make my choices within the confines of the day I am given, and each day I have to make choices again.
Again, these are my thoughts on it. I do not assume that I have complete freedom, just as living in America I do not. While I am free, there are still things I do not understand and cannot do.
Cory
G
Guest
Guest
To Dark Virtue:
This is solely what I believe and think on this matter.
1. Did God harden Pharaoh's heart?
Okay, I can't deny the fact that God did harden Pharaoh's heart, because it's first of all, mentioned in the Bible. So since I haven't lived the past, I'll have to say yes.
2. Did this intervention alter/modify Pharaoh's Free Will?
As Gods_Peon said, Pharoah (most likely) had no intention on letting Israel go. Take it this way, would you want to let go of something that benefits you a whole lot?? or give it away because some person that you THINK is crazy and had killed a fellow countryman (not sure if Pharaoh knew about Moses killing an Egyptian) says so (I think that Pharaoh took Moses lightly on his words and probably thought he was nuts)??
a.
Let's assume that you took the "don't listen to this person and keep that thing that benefits you" answer. God then hardens your heart. Now, doesn't that just basically say that he is reinforcing your answer?? Doesn't that show that God is somewhat, acknowledging your answer, even if he doesn't agree with it??
Okay, also, after quickly (emphasize the quickly ^^() ) reviewed the first part of the book of Exodus, it clearly states that his heart was hardened AFTER each miracle. That, in itself, states that he had time to think.
Okay, in both of these examples, Pharaoh witnessed these miracles. Now, although it does say that God hardened Pharaoh's heart in the second example, it's basically the same. He witnessed the miracle (plague in his mind) and he did not believe.
In example 2, "Pharaoh quickly sumoned Moses and Aaron and said, "I have sinned against the Lord your God and against you. Now forgive my sin once more and pray to the Lord your God to take this deadly plague away from me."_Exodus 10:16-17 He asked for forgiveness, but was he sincere?? He had lied about the time before. How many times have people said they'd do something, and done the opposite?? (like studying for exams and not doing something else, which is what I'm doing right now X3) I don't believe Pharaoh was sincere in his hasty reply to the plague. So in other words, he just wanted the plague to be gone and didn't care for his "promise", of sorts. So he once again chose to not let them go, and God backed-up his decision by hardening his heart.
b.
Okay, so let's assume you gave the thing that benefitted you up. Good for you. You gave your friend your...eraser (as an example) and gave it whole-heartily. Your friend offers it back, but you don't take it back because you had given it to him freely. Yay, now, compare that to Pharaoh, did he let them go and not want them back??
From what I've read, it doesn't seem that way. In fact, he was trying to get them back with force. This part of scripture, clearly states that God hardened Pharaoh's heart AFTER he decided himself, which is what I believe he had done for the previous times he did it.
Pharaoh chose to let the Israelites go, and for good reason (he didn't want anymore disasters happening again). He had a choice, whether to go against God, who is stronger than any of the gods he worshiped, or let them go?? And he chose to go against God, who he knew was strong enough to wipe out his whole entire kingdom. That's not manipulating, that's called using your brain to choose which course of action.
Think of it this way, when you see um...something you like just lying on the floor, and you get electricuted when you try to pick it up, would you try to get it again, even if you liked it that much?? You have a choice whether to get electricuted again, or just leave it.
*phew* done with those questions ^^
Anyways, to answer the why question, God did those to prove his power, as stated, but he didn't do them for no good reason, he did them to target the gods of Egypt. He, basically, proved he was stronger than all of them. Nile River to blood defeated "god of the Nile", locusts "god of harvest", first born "god of life/death". He did it all.
I hope I answered the questions clearly, if something is unclear, feel free to ask.
~p4e~
This is solely what I believe and think on this matter.
1. Did God harden Pharaoh's heart?
Okay, I can't deny the fact that God did harden Pharaoh's heart, because it's first of all, mentioned in the Bible. So since I haven't lived the past, I'll have to say yes.
2. Did this intervention alter/modify Pharaoh's Free Will?
As Gods_Peon said, Pharoah (most likely) had no intention on letting Israel go. Take it this way, would you want to let go of something that benefits you a whole lot?? or give it away because some person that you THINK is crazy and had killed a fellow countryman (not sure if Pharaoh knew about Moses killing an Egyptian) says so (I think that Pharaoh took Moses lightly on his words and probably thought he was nuts)??
a.
Let's assume that you took the "don't listen to this person and keep that thing that benefits you" answer. God then hardens your heart. Now, doesn't that just basically say that he is reinforcing your answer?? Doesn't that show that God is somewhat, acknowledging your answer, even if he doesn't agree with it??
Okay, also, after quickly (emphasize the quickly ^^() ) reviewed the first part of the book of Exodus, it clearly states that his heart was hardened AFTER each miracle. That, in itself, states that he had time to think.
[b said:
Okay, in both of these examples, Pharaoh witnessed these miracles. Now, although it does say that God hardened Pharaoh's heart in the second example, it's basically the same. He witnessed the miracle (plague in his mind) and he did not believe.
In example 2, "Pharaoh quickly sumoned Moses and Aaron and said, "I have sinned against the Lord your God and against you. Now forgive my sin once more and pray to the Lord your God to take this deadly plague away from me."_Exodus 10:16-17 He asked for forgiveness, but was he sincere?? He had lied about the time before. How many times have people said they'd do something, and done the opposite?? (like studying for exams and not doing something else, which is what I'm doing right now X3) I don't believe Pharaoh was sincere in his hasty reply to the plague. So in other words, he just wanted the plague to be gone and didn't care for his "promise", of sorts. So he once again chose to not let them go, and God backed-up his decision by hardening his heart.
b.
Okay, so let's assume you gave the thing that benefitted you up. Good for you. You gave your friend your...eraser (as an example) and gave it whole-heartily. Your friend offers it back, but you don't take it back because you had given it to him freely. Yay, now, compare that to Pharaoh, did he let them go and not want them back??
[b said:
From what I've read, it doesn't seem that way. In fact, he was trying to get them back with force. This part of scripture, clearly states that God hardened Pharaoh's heart AFTER he decided himself, which is what I believe he had done for the previous times he did it.
Pharaoh chose to let the Israelites go, and for good reason (he didn't want anymore disasters happening again). He had a choice, whether to go against God, who is stronger than any of the gods he worshiped, or let them go?? And he chose to go against God, who he knew was strong enough to wipe out his whole entire kingdom. That's not manipulating, that's called using your brain to choose which course of action.
Think of it this way, when you see um...something you like just lying on the floor, and you get electricuted when you try to pick it up, would you try to get it again, even if you liked it that much?? You have a choice whether to get electricuted again, or just leave it.
*phew* done with those questions ^^
Anyways, to answer the why question, God did those to prove his power, as stated, but he didn't do them for no good reason, he did them to target the gods of Egypt. He, basically, proved he was stronger than all of them. Nile River to blood defeated "god of the Nile", locusts "god of harvest", first born "god of life/death". He did it all.
I hope I answered the questions clearly, if something is unclear, feel free to ask.
~p4e~