did Pharoh Have free will??

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] (Thaddius @ Jan. 29 2005,9:05)]I want to comment here about free will. This is how I understand it myself.

It does not mean we have every freedom, it just means we have freedom to make choices. What choices we are allowed to make are not up to us. The assumtion that is made with free will is that we are free to choose anything, and thats not the case. God does interfere and has throughout the Bible and even today. Every morning I wake up, I make an active choice on what I will do throughout that day. When and where God intereferes, I have no idea, just as pharoh most likely had no idea God was hardening his heart. I make my choices within the confines of the day I am given, and each day I have to make choices again.

Again, these are my thoughts on it. I do not assume that I have complete freedom, just as living in America I do not. While I am free, there are still things I do not understand and cannot do.

Cory

Thaddius, as always, well said.

Let me highlight one portion of it:

Quote[/b] ]It does not mean we have every freedom, it just means we have freedom to make choices.

If Free Will means the freedom to make choices, then God, most definately, interfered with Pharaoh's Free Will. He interfered with his ability to make a choice.

The question then becomes, do we ALWAYS have Free Will, the freedom to make choices. If the answer is NO, then man becomes nothing more than a puppet of God. As I understand it, that is a position the Christian church has always been against.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Quote[/b] (poonai_4_ever @ Jan. 29 2005,11:57)]

Quote[/b] ]2. Did this intervention alter/modify Pharaoh's Free Will?

As Gods_Peon said, Pharoah (most likely) had no intention on letting Israel go. Take it this way, would you want to let go of something that benefits you a whole lot?? or give it away because some person that you THINK is crazy and had killed a fellow countryman (not sure if Pharaoh knew about Moses killing an Egyptian) says so (I think that Pharaoh took Moses lightly on his words and probably thought he was nuts)??

Pharaoh was simply a man. In the face of overwhelming plagues, I believe that he would have been inclined to say YES, TAKE YOUR PEOPLE AND GO. Why do I believe that? Because God removed his decision making ability on three occasions to allow God to rain down more plagues on Egypt and how how mighty He was. Many of you are confusing the subject here. The bottom line is that God removed a man's ability to make decisions, hence removing his Free Will to become a puppet.

Quote[/b] ]Let's assume that you took the "don't listen to this person and keep that thing that benefits you" answer. God then hardens your heart. Now, doesn't that just basically say that he is reinforcing your answer?? Doesn't that show that God is somewhat, acknowledging your answer, even if he doesn't agree with it??

This doesn't make any logical sense whatsoever. If you are inclined to believe a certain thing, why does God need to reinforce that belief? This thread is in regards to a PARTICULAR situation. God hardened Pharaoh's heart so he could not change his mind. HE REMOVED THE ABILITY TO MAKE A DECISION. End of story.

Quote[/b] ]Okay, also, after quickly (emphasize the quickly ^^() ) reviewed the first part of the book of Exodus, it clearly states that his heart was hardened AFTER each miracle. That, in itself, states that he had time to think.

You're only underlining my point. God hardened his heart after the miracle, but BEFORE Moses asked if he would let the Israelites go. Therefore, God made sure that Pharaoh would say NO. Do you understand now? God interfered with the decision making process to show off his "talents".

Quote[/b] ]In example 2, "Pharaoh quickly sumoned Moses and Aaron and said, "I have sinned against the Lord your God and against you. Now forgive my sin once more and pray to the Lord your God to take this deadly plague away from me."_Exodus 10:16-17 He asked for forgiveness, but was he sincere??

Of course he was sincere, the man and the rest of his countrymen were in pain! He wanted his suffering to end. And what did God do? Harden his heart so that he COULD NOT let the Israelites go. After all this pain, don't you think he would consider letting them go? I would. But no, God had more pain and suffering to inflict, He wasn't done yet, so he made sure that Pharaoh couldn't change his mind.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]"When the king of Egypt was told that the people had fled, Pharaoh and his officials changed their minds about them and said, "What have we done? We have let the Israelites go and have lost their services!" SO he had his chariot made ready and took his army with him.He took six hundred of the best chariots, along with all the other chariots of Egypt, with officers over all of them. The Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, so that he pursued the Israelites, who were marching out boldly._Exodus 14:5-8

From what I've read, it doesn't seem that way. In fact, he was trying to get them back with force. This part of scripture, clearly states that God hardened Pharaoh's heart AFTER he decided himself, which is what I believe he had done for the previous times he did it.

Try looking at this objectively. Put yourself in Pharaoh's position. I'd be upset too if I were tricked into letting them go after enduring all those plagues. Was it the brightest deciision ever made? Of course not. Was it justified? I think so. He was dealt with unfairly, and suffered the greatest tragedy a father could, the loss of his first born son. How would YOU take it?

Quote[/b] ]
Pharaoh chose to let the Israelites go, and for good reason (he didn't want anymore disasters happening again). He had a choice, whether to go against God, who is stronger than any of the gods he worshiped, or let them go?? And he chose to go against God, who he knew was strong enough to wipe out his whole entire kingdom. That's not manipulating, that's called using your brain to choose which course of action.

Your logic needs some work. Yes, Pharaoh chose to let the Israelites go. This guy wasn't an idiot. I believe he had every intention of letting them go long before the loss of the firstborn, which is EXACTLY WHY God hardened his heart. You are claiming that Pharaoh had free use of his mental functions regarding these decisions, but he did NOT. God hardened his heart AFTER the plague and BEFORE Moses asked to let the Israelites go. WHY do you think He did that? SO PHARAOH COULDN'T CHANGE HIS MIND.

As I have said before, the why's are irrelevant. God interfered with Free Will. He did so on many occasions since the creation of man. That's a HUGE pill to swallow.

 

[MaxX]

Actually, I kind of see it as punishment for the crimes Egypt committed against the Hebrews and other slaves.

I guess you could get into a whole argument about justification of punishment and whether all the first born sons deserved to die even though most didn't have anything to do with the slavery.

 

[Dark Virtue]

You're still missing the point.

If God simply wanted to punish the Egyptians, why did He need a roundabout reason to do so? Why bend Pharoah's will to give some sort of justification for the plagues? Certainly God doesn't need justification in anything He does.

 

[Guest]

Quote[/b] ]The bottom line is that God removed a man's ability to make decisions, hence removing his Free Will to become a puppet.

Quote[/b] ]HE REMOVED THE ABILITY TO MAKE A DECISION. End of story.

Quote[/b] ]Therefore, God made sure that Pharaoh would say NO.

Quote[/b] ]After all this pain, don't you think he would consider letting them go? I would. But no, God had more pain and suffering to inflict, He wasn't done yet, so he made sure that Pharaoh couldn't change his mind.

Okay, so the bulk of your replies have to do with free-will, so I'll try to reply to that first with my own question. What does free will mean to you?? What is your definition of free will??

I will try to reply to the rest after you've answered that question. It's useless to go on if my definition is different from yours.

~p4e~

 

[Dark Virtue]

Free Will is defined as, "freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention".

Let's keep in mind, the topic of this thread, "Did Pharaoh have free will?"

God intervened on multiple occassions to make certain the outcome of Pharaoh's answer. In other words, divine intervention. This negates Free Will.

The following is from Wikipedia:

Quote[/b] ]The theological doctrine of divine foreknowledge is often alleged to be in conflict with free will. After all, if God knows exactly what will happen, right down to every choice one makes, how can one's choices be free? God's already true or timelessly true knowledge about one's choices seems to constrain one's freedom. This problem is related to the Aristotelian problem of the sea-battle: tomorrow there will or will not be a sea-battle. If there will be one, then it was true yesterday that there would be one. Then it would be necessary that the sea battle will occur. If there won't be one, then by similar reasoning, it is necessary that it won't occur. This means that the future, whatever it is, is completely fixed by past truths — true propositions about the future. (However, some philosophers hold that necessity and possibility are defined with respect to a given point in time and a given matrix of empirical circumstances, and so something that is merely possible from the perspective of one observer may be necessary from the perspective of an omniscient.)

In Christian theology, God is described as not only omniscient but omnipotent, which some people (Christians and non-Christians alike) believe implies that not only has God always known what choices you will make tomorrow, but actually chose what you would choose. That is, they believe, by virtue of His foreknowledge He knows what will influence your choices, and by virtue of His omnipotence He controls those factors. This becomes especially important for the doctrines relating to salvation. Christians' definition of predestination does not imply that God chose certain people to receive salvation and the rest have no chance of salvation (John 3:16 says "whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."). Calvinists, however, embrace the idea that God chose them and only them for salvation. Arminians believe that humans always have free will, but God's prevenient grace is always calling them. Mormons believe that God has given all humans the gift of free will (or free agency in Mormon terms) and has also predestined or foreordained everyone to do certain things in life, including to return to his presence. Whenever an individual chooses to stray from the commandments of God, by their own free will, their predestination may be anulled.

Some philosophers believe that free will is equivalent to having a soul, and thus that (at least some) animals don't have free will. This is also the position of Jewish philosophy, which stresses that free will (Hebrew: bechirah chofshith) is a product of the intrinsic human soul (neshama). There is some controversy on the contradiction between God's omniscience and free will; this was first debated between Maimonides and his critic Abraham ibn Daud (Raavad III), e.g. in Maimonides' Mishneh Torah Hilchoth Teshuva 5:5.

What it boils down to is that without free will, man becomes nothing but a puppet. The importance of Free Will is an essential component of Christianity.

 

[Thaddius]

Quote[/b] ]If Free Will means the freedom to make choices, then God, most definately, interfered with Pharaoh's Free Will. He interfered with his ability to make a choice.

The question then becomes, do we ALWAYS have Free Will, the freedom to make choices. If the answer is NO, then man becomes nothing more than a puppet of God. As I understand it, that is a position the Christian church has always been against.

I'm not going to argue with you about the position that the church takes on things. All through out the Bible are places where God intervened with mankind. Noah, Abraham, Moses, Mary. Every instance that is recorded where God influenced something shows that His will comes before free will. Now, being the omnipotent God that He is, I think that in these cases God knew the end result and used those specific people for that purpose, pharoh included. That might make it seem that we are puppets, but that doesn't bother me. Its the only way I can explain how I see and understand it.

Cory

 

[Guest]

Quote[/b] ]Free Will is defined as, "freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention".

Okay, thank you for clarifying, much appreciated.

Anyways, what I believe free will is, is the ability to make choices on your own. However, whether it is beneficial or not can't be completely determined until the end.

As you can see, our definitions are basically (if not completely) similar. We both believe that free will is the ability to make choices, and it isn't determined by "divine intervention".

Quote[/b] ]Pharaoh was simply a man. In the face of overwhelming plagues, I believe that he would have been inclined to say YES, TAKE YOUR PEOPLE AND GO. Why do I believe that? Because God removed his decision making ability on three occasions to allow God to rain down more plagues on Egypt and how how mighty He was. Many of you are confusing the subject here. The bottom line is that God removed a man's ability to make decisions, hence removing his Free Will to become a puppet.

As you have stated yourself, "...he would have been inclined..." to do something. From a definition I looked up on the internet - (www.dictionary.com) "Having a preference, disposition, or tendency" - it says that it is more of a preference than being forced to do it. Pharoah had a choice between choosing a better course of action, or a worse one. Now, as I mentioned before, God hardened his heart after the miracle (as you agree with) and, from what I mentioned previously, did that only to reaffirm Pharaoh's decision.

Quote[/b] ]This doesn't make any logical sense whatsoever. If you are inclined to believe a certain thing, why does God need to reinforce that belief?

Now, as you mentioned here, that does raise up a good question. However, did you consider that Pharaoh might've been stubborn?? In other words, he might've not even considered the other option after his mind was set. Would you stop doing something you like just because someone said so and gave you a reason that you thought was stupid??

Quote[/b] ]You're only underlining my point. God hardened his heart after the miracle, but BEFORE Moses asked if he would let the Israelites go.

I'm sorry, but where did you read this?? If you are referring to:

Quote[/b] ]"The Lord said to Moses, '...But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.'"_Exodus 4:21

Then you are making somewhat of an error. Yes, God did say he WOULD harden Pharaoh's heart. The "will" in that verse is future tense, so that means he would do it later, and not at that particular time, or else it would have been "have" or switch "harden" with "hardened". Since the Bible specifically wrote that God hardened Pharaoh's heart after each miracle, we can only safely assume that, and can't say whether or not he did it before or not, using logic of course.

Quote[/b] ]Of course he was sincere, the man and the rest of his countrymen were in pain! He wanted his suffering to end.

Okay, since we aren't Pharaoh, we can only assume that he was sincere, at least at that moment.

However, it states in the Bible that after "When Pharaoh saw that the rain and hail and thunder had stopped, he sinned again: He and his officials hardened their hearts."_Exodus 9:34 (Plague of hail) In other words, he took back what he said, even after he agreed to the terms - "Then Pharaoh summoned Moses and Aaron. "This time I have sinned," he said to them. "The Lord is in the right, and I and my people are in the wrong. Pray to the Lord for we have had enough thunder and hail. I will let you go; you don't have to stay any longer."_Exodus 9:27-28

This isn't the only time he backed out on his word however, he did it multiple times, such as in the "Plague of Frogs", "Plague of Flies", "Plague of Locusts", and also the "Plague on the Firstborn". Does this show the face of a man who cares for his country's safety more?? or his own dignity??

Quote[/b] ]Try looking at this objectively. Put yourself in Pharaoh's position. I'd be upset too if I were tricked into letting them go after enduring all those plagues.

First off, where does it say, or even imply, that Pharaoh was tricked??

Quote[/b] ]Was it the brightest deciision ever made? Of course not.

Yay, we agree on something~!! ^^

Quote[/b] ]Was it justified? I think so.

Let me ask you this, what is so justified about trying to get back something you had driven out yourself. Sure, he lost his son due to the plagues, but he was warned:

Quote[/b] ]"Then say to Pharaoh, 'This is what the Lord says: Israel is my firstborn son, and I told you, "Let my son go, so he may worship me.' But you refused to let him go; so I will kill your firstborn son."_Exodus 4:22-23

Quote[/b] ]Your logic needs some work.

I think my logic is perfectly fine thank you ^^

Quote[/b] ]Yes, Pharaoh chose to let the Israelites go. This guy wasn't an idiot. I believe he had every intention of letting them go long before the loss of the firstborn, which is EXACTLY WHY God hardened his heart.

Touche, quite correct, Pharaoh chose to let them go, he wasn't an idiot, and he probably had intentions of letting them go long before the loss of the firstborn. However, as the example I gave earlier

Quote[/b] ]"When the king of Egypt was told that the people had fled, Pharaoh and his officials changed their minds about them and said, "What have we done? We have let the Israelites go and have lost their services!" SO he had his chariot made ready and took his army with him.He took six hundred of the best chariots, along with all the other chariots of Egypt, with officers over all of them. The Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, so that he pursued the Israelites, who were marching out boldly._Exodus 14:5-8

That verse is the only thing we can use as evidence that God hardened Pharaoh's heart after he decided to change his mind. Now, this verse clearly states that he did in fact change his mind, and didn't only have a small thought about it. If he did, it would have said he "considered" going after the Israelites. Since we can't base our thoughts on base-less evidence, we'd have to conclude that God did that for the previous times as well.

Quote[/b] ]However You are claiming that Pharaoh had free use of his mental functions regarding these decisions, but he did NOT. God hardened his heart AFTER the plague and BEFORE Moses asked to let the Israelites go. WHY do you think He did that? SO PHARAOH COULDN'T CHANGE HIS MIND.

Okay, the verse I just gave works for this too, it clearly stated that he "...and his officials changed their minds about them (Israelites) and said, 'What have we done? We have let the Israelites go and have lost their services!'"_Exodus 14:5 He changed his mind, which was a choice he made. If that isn't blunt, I don't know what is.
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From what you've posted, I can really only get one repeated thing, and that the "free will vs. God's divine plan" (which is basically what this thread has grown into, if not started out) argument. The beauty of it, is that God knows what will happen, but, he doesn't necessarily intervene. He knows us because he made us, as Gods_Peon stated:

Quote[/b] ]Psalm 139:13, God knits us together, he instills in us the tools which he later would like us to use to his glory. Whether that be a loving heart or stubborn heart.

He knows how we act, how we feel, how we will react. What you are suggesting, is that God will bend our wills to form his plan, when in fact, what we choose, is his plan. Why?? Because he can interpret how we will act by our personalities.

When you plan out your day, you basically make a schedule, like what a school does. It is basically a "hard-copy" of what you will do during the day. A good planner, would try to make sure to cover variables, like, rush hour when trying to get to a certain place. God is like a planner, he is covering every variable there is and his plan will go on whether or not there is a variable. He knows about the "rush hour", he knows about the "weather", he's got it covered.

That isn't bending someone's will, that is being able to be flexible, while still going forward with your plan. A good plan consists of one focus, while still being flexible enough to cover most (if not all) variables.

~p4e~

 

[Avesther]

Quote[/b] ]Pharaoh was simply a man.  In the face of overwhelming plagues, I believe that he would have been inclined to say YES, TAKE YOUR PEOPLE AND GO.  Why do I believe that?  Because God removed his decision making ability on three occasions to allow God to rain down more plagues on Egypt and how how mighty He was.  Many of you are confusing the subject here.  The bottom line is that God removed a man's ability to make decisions, hence removing his Free Will to become a puppet

But in Pharohs mind and in Egyptian society, he was not just a man dealing with plagues, he was a god.  Given how strongly held this view was, one can not assume that he would react like any "normal" person.   I think it would be more accurate to characterize such a person as somebody willing to do what ever it took to reinforce his position of power.  Simply giving in to the demands of what he considered to be lower then slaves would do quite the opposite.  Letting them go would have caused other groups to stand up and question his authority as well.  It would have only led to more chaos and challanges to his authority.

Each plague was an attack on a diety in Egytian society.  The deities we helpless to stop the plagues.  Pharoh had to do what it took to retain the faith and devotion of his serving public while the true God was showing him up to be a sham.  To push aside his position of power by claiming he was just a man dealing with an ugly situation is to neglect the widely and strongly entrenched values of the Egyptians.

Pharoh was not just a man dealing with an ugly situation, he was expected to be god and was expected to deal with the situation as a god would.  His choice was simple:  Acknowledge the true God with authority over him or to continue in his own way and believe that he was god and could actually do something about what was happening.

Pharoh was really given no choice different then anybody else: Seek Gods will or seek your own will.