Do you believe our christian views are unreasonable?

[SLNT_FIR]

How do I have faith there is no God?

I don't have faith either way, so I would love to hear your explanation.

Looking at the other topic, , I've been thinking about this: We haven't really debated this in the big picture. Post your comments here:

***Please Please PLEASE keep your posts organized, this'll help the thread stay much more coherant and prevent flamewars / misunderstandings*** If you can't keep it organized, label your points #1 and their main idea, THEN specifics. I don't want this to become like the other threads...

 

[Dark Virtue]

That's a bit of an open ended question since you haven't specified which views to discuss, so I'll pick the big one and fire off both barrels.

I believe that the belief in the God of the Bible (or any god for that matter) is unreasonable.

Why?

Reasonable is defined as being in accordance with reason. Reason being defined as a sufficient ground of explanation or of logical defense.

Since the existence of God is unverifiable, the belief in such a being can not be founded on logic, reason or evidence. Thereby rendering belief in such a being as unreasonable.

 

[Master~Plan]

That's a bit of an open ended question since you haven't specified which views to discuss, so I'll pick the big one and fire off both barrels.

I believe that the belief in the God of the Bible (or any god for that matter) is unreasonable.

Why?

Reasonable is defined as being in accordance with reason. Reason being defined as a sufficient ground of explanation or of logical defense.

agree...

Since the existence of God is unverifiable, the belief in such a being can not be founded on logic, reason or evidence. Thereby rendering belief in such a being as unreasonable.

this isn't a rational statement.
a. God has been verified to me- that is I have first hand experience of God working in my life
b. "the belief in such a bieng can not be founded by logic" is a gross blanket statement
Do you claim complete knowledge? Are you the standard of logic? Just because you do not accumulate the logic of belief in a Supreme bieng does not by any means the logic does not exist, or can not be accumulated. Simply claiming no such logic exist, is claiming a universal negative, and the only way you can claim that is by obtaining total and complete knowledge.

 

[SLNT_FIR]

Ok, this is the same thing as before, except backwards. XD

But you can't prove eitherway, isn't both considered unreasonable? Therefore (correct me if i'm wrong in assuming), you're stuck in between, but being "stuck" requires you to choose one of the two options anyway. This in itself is "unreasonable" then, aren't ALL choices unreasonable no matter what decision you come to?

And it also boils down to "the sufficient ground of explanation or of logical defense". I got to go to bed now cause its late, but I'll get back to this.

 

[Arkanjel]

Reasonable is defined as being in accordance with reason. Reason being defined as a sufficient ground of explanation or of logical defense.

Since the existence of God is unverifiable, the belief in such a being can not be founded on logic, reason or evidence. Thereby rendering belief in such a being as unreasonable.

DV you know me by now I hope. So I will leave you with this.

You are living in a world of proof, but you choose to ignore it.

That in itself could start a thousand threads, but Im sure by now they have all been done here, at least twice.

 

[Dark Virtue]

this isn't a rational statement.

You may want to examine the definition of "rational".

a. God has been verified to me- that is I have first hand experience of God working in my life

See Anecdotal Evidence

How has God been verified by you? What "first hand" experience do you have that can't be explained any other way.

If the existence of God can't be proven or disproven, please explain how it was proven, and then verified, by you.

b. "the belief in such a bieng can not be founded by logic" is a gross blanket statement

No, it's not. Isn't that you need Faith?

Do you claim complete knowledge? Are you the standard of logic? Just because you do not accumulate the logic of belief in a Supreme bieng does not by any means the logic does not exist, or can not be accumulated. Simply claiming no such logic exist, is claiming a universal negative, and the only way you can claim that is by obtaining total and complete knowledge.

You misunderstood my point and have gone off on a tangent.

If you can LOGICALLY explain the existence of God, then please do so, I am all ears. If, however, you base your belief in God on Faith, then you have simply reinforced my point.

 

[Dark Virtue]

Ok, this is the same thing as before, except backwards. XD

But you can't prove eitherway, isn't both considered unreasonable? Therefore (correct me if i'm wrong in assuming), you're stuck in between, but being "stuck" requires you to choose one of the two options anyway. This in itself is "unreasonable" then, aren't ALL choices unreasonable no matter what decision you come to?

And it also boils down to "the sufficient ground of explanation or of logical defense". I got to go to bed now cause its late, but I'll get back to this.

You are correct in stating that there are two choices here: Belive in God or Disbelieve in God.

You are incorrect, however, in stating that the choice MUST be made.

I have yet to make a choice because I don't have enough information to make an educated decision. How is that unreasonable?

 

[Dark Virtue]

DV you know me by now I hope. So I will leave you with this.

You are living in a world of proof, but you choose to ignore it.

That in itself could start a thousand threads, but Im sure by now they have all been done here, at least twice.

You are abusing the definition of the word "proof".

If proof was all around us, there wouldn't be a need for this discussion at all.

This "proof" that you offer is used by countless religions as "proof" of their Deity. You can't all be right, but you can all be wrong.

 

[ChickenSoup]

Since the existence of God is unverifiable, the belief in such a being can not be founded on logic, reason or evidence. Thereby rendering belief in such a being as unreasonable.

And evolution is verifiable? I think not

 

[Dark Virtue]

And evolution is verifiable? I think not

Eh?

Why are you changing subjects?

This thread isn't about evolution, it's about whether or not your Christian views are reasonable.

 

[SLNT_FIR]

I have yet to make a choice because I don't have enough information to make an educated decision. How is that unreasonable?

I may have not made this clear, but you currently you do not believe in God, and you don't, you are in the process of gathering information to make a decesion correct? Well, in its own way, you still don't believe in God, there's no "in the middle" space. *edit*:::This is because:

If you are in the process of deciding, you STILL don't believe in God, so you are in the middle. But you DON'T believe in God because you ARE IN the middle... make sense? I don't know if I'm conveying the right idea. *end edit*:::

That's my argument, you are selecting one of the choices, there is no "in the middle, deciding choice"

I think you are interpreting what I am saying differently than I intended. (conveying ideas is hard over the internet ) I see it as this way, you are in the middle, but when you are in the middle, you don't believe in God. However, you are mentally in the middle in as in you don't have a definate standpoint.

You get the idea? I understand my idea, but through my text it seems a little fuzzy. Bah, read this again and see if you can get the gist of what I am trying to say.

 

[Master~Plan]

You may want to examine the definition of "rational".

as may you...

See Anecdotal Evidence

How has God been verified by you? What "first hand" experience do you have that can't be explained any other way.

If the existence of God can't be proven or disproven, please explain how it was proven, and then verified, by you.

My evidence presented to you is anectdotal, but My evidence experienced by me is First Hand

I have seen hospital test results of a man who had so much cancer that he was given 3 months to live. I also saw the follow up official hospital tests of two weeks later after a night of prayer. And these records said there is not a trace of cancer in the very same man.

I have seen God bless my life. My dad was paralyzed, and was told he would never walk. He walks fine.
I have so many experiences and stories, but you don't care, I already know. I know because you have already forgotten what I opened up and shared in the previous thread. If you really cared, or remembered, you wouldn't have asked this^ question....

No, it's not. Isn't that you need Faith?

I don't have faith in God's existence, I know he exist
I have faith that God is in control and will back me up if I am living according to His divine will.(I'm not trying to pose as some great person either, because I have a long way to go before I can say I am living according to His will)

If you can LOGICALLY explain the existence of God, then please do so,

I have seen a man cured of cancer by God, but now your going to tell me why that doesn't qualify, so please go ahead....

 

[Eon]

Because I have seen a man cured of cancer by science.

 

[ChickenSoup]

Because I have seen a man cured of cancer by science.

Cancers without a cure?

 

[Dark Virtue]

I may have not made this clear, but you currently you do not believe in God, and you don't, you are in the process of gathering information to make a decesion correct? Well, in its own way, you still don't believe in God, there's no "in the middle" space. *edit*:::This is because:

If you are in the process of deciding, you STILL don't believe in God, so you are in the middle. But you DON'T believe in God because you ARE IN the middle... make sense? I don't know if I'm conveying the right idea. *end edit*:::

That's my argument, you are selecting one of the choices, there is no "in the middle, deciding choice"

I think you are interpreting what I am saying differently than I intended. (conveying ideas is hard over the internet ) I see it as this way, you are in the middle, but when you are in the middle, you don't believe in God. However, you are mentally in the middle in as in you don't have a definate standpoint.

You get the idea? I understand my idea, but through my text it seems a little fuzzy. Bah, read this again and see if you can get the gist of what I am trying to say.

I think you are confusing the issue.

Let me explain: By saying I don't believe in God, you are equating that to my having a DISBELIEF in God, which is incorrect.

You can be noncommital on a subject without commiting to either side.

Look at the existence of Nessie. Do you believe in the existence of Nessie? By saying I believe in Nessie would mean I have evidence to her existence, which I do not have. By saying I desbelieve in Nessie would mean I have evidence to her non-existence, which I don't have. On the existence of Nessie, I am noncommital, because I do not have enough evidence to believe either way.

See?

 

[Dark Virtue]

as may you...

Please explain what "rational" means to you. I base my definition on the scientific one.

My evidence presented to you is anectdotal, but My evidence experienced by me is First Hand

I have seen hospital test results of a man who had so much cancer that he was given 3 months to live. I also saw the follow up official hospital tests of two weeks later after a night of prayer. And these records said there is not a trace of cancer in the very same man.

I have seen God bless my life. My dad was paralyzed, and was told he would never walk. He walks fine.
I have so many experiences and stories, but you don't care, I already know. I know because you have already forgotten what I opened up and shared in the previous thread. If you really cared, or remembered, you wouldn't have asked this^ question....

I don't have faith in God's existence, I know he exist
I have faith that God is in control and will back me up if I am living according to His divine will.(I'm not trying to pose as some great person either, because I have a long way to go before I can say I am living according to His will)

I have seen a man cured of cancer by God, but now your going to tell me why that doesn't qualify, so please go ahead....

My point is that it doesn't matter what evidence YOU have. When you try and share it with someone else, it becomes anecdotal UNLESS it's real proof. What is "real" proof? It's proof that can be substantiated with evidence, logic and reason. Thus, able to be shared with those other than yourself.

Look at it this way, if I told you I had proof of God's nonexistence, would you believe me if I couldn't actually show it to you or prove it to you?

Why then, do you disparage those of us who have not been granted this same level of evidence that you have? I have had nothing to attribute to the existence of a supernatural entity.

 

[Master~Plan]

My point is that it doesn't matter what evidence YOU have. When you try and share it with someone else, it becomes anecdotal UNLESS it's real proof.

The focus of this whole thread eludes you. This thread is about my views. I'm not trying to prove anything to you. It really doesn't matter what you think. You call my views unreasonable, and I share with you the Logic and evidence I have seen. Do you believe my views unreasonable? I have been given undeniable evidence of the existence of God. If you call that unreasonable, I simply reply with you not bieng rational. Its quite straightforeward...

Because I have seen a man cured of cancer by science.

and Ive seen people make wine, but that doesn't discount the miracle of Jesus making wine. You have already determined there is no God, so you will never see a miracle

 

[Dark Virtue]

The focus of this whole thread eludes you. This thread is about my views. I'm not trying to prove anything to you. It really doesn't matter what you think. You call my views unreasonable, and I share with you the Logic and evidence I have seen. Do you believe my views unreasonable? I have been given undeniable evidence of the existence of God. If you call that unreasonable, I simply reply with you not bieng rational. Its quite straightforeward...

First of all, YOU did not start this thread. Since Christians can't agree within themselves, I am addressing general points.

Second, you have not shared ANY bit of evidence with me. Your "evidence" is viable for only one person: you.

The problem with Christianity and Christians in general, is that it's not enough for YOU to believe, you want EVERYONE to believe. I have Christians on this side telling me you don't need evidence to believe in God and I have Christians on that side telling me that evidence is all around me. Then I have Christians like you telling me that you have personal evidence of God, but you aren't able to share that evidence with anyone other than yourself, which, ONCE AGAIN, makes that "evidence" useless as proof to anyone other than yourself.

Again I say that if you can't share your evidence, proof or reason for belief in God with anyone else, then it's unreasonable to expect another person to believe in God based on that anecdotal evidence.

and Ive seen people make wine, but that doesn't discount the miracle of Jesus making wine. You have already determined there is no God, so you will never see a miracle

When and where have I determined there is no God?

Is it really so hard for you to accept that there is a middle position?

Please stop putting words in my mouth. You are saying things that are untrue in order to fortify your position.

Your analogy is horrible. I too, have seen people make wine, but I have yet to see someone turn water miraculously into wine.

 

[Eon]

Oh, is that how it works? You have to be in the club to see the miracle? What's the point then?

Actually I don't think your definition jibes with your own book there. Pharoah didn't believe, but you can bet he saw the plagues AND the sea rushing in. Many of those who saw Jesus's miracles were either non-believers or on the fence at the time.

That's what miracles are FOR to convince the unconvinced...

 

[Genesis1315]

Guys, this is getting personal. Cut it out. Please remember the rules and ToS.

Gen