Flood

Jim

Jim

New Member
I know people on this forum rarely take me seriously, but the alternative is the cbbb site, and that is about as intellectually stimulating as pulling out my frontal lobes with rusty pliars.

I'd like to ask what everyone's take on the Flood story is. I already know, through the other boards, that many do not take all aspects of the bible literally.

By reading from Genesis onwards throughout the OT, I find it very difficult if not impossible to distinguish any way of telling where a poetic narrative starts and ends, if any exists within the Bible.

If this were true, then I would really like to discuss the Flood.

Look here:
http://www.mindprod.com/noah.html

Sorry if I have led you here before. It gives a few reasons why Global Flooding is relatively impossible. And a local flood? Well, God warned Noah 120 years in advance. Assuming the Flood only occured within the Mesopotamian region, this would give Noah ample time to leave the region to be flooded. Besides the point there is also ample evidence that the Flood in the Bible was Global:
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]
Nine Biblical Evidences that the Flood was Global

Some evangelical teachers today are claiming that Noah's flood did not cover the entire Earth nor all the mountains of the day. Further, they claim that Noah and the animals floated on a shallow, temporary inland sea caused by the flood, somehow covering only the Mesopotamian region. Thus, they must claim that the Earth's entire human population was limited to this area, or that not all humans were killed in the flood. Is there really biblical evidence for claims of this nature?


All The Mountains Were Covered. The tops of all the high mountains under the entire heavens were at least 20 feet beneath the waters surface (Genesis 7:19-20). It would be absurd to think that a flood covering the highest mountains of the Middle East would not affect the rest of the world. In addition, the waters remained at this awesome, mountain-covering height for five months! (Genesis 7:18-24, 8:1-5).

The Ark Was Huge. The ark was necessary to prevent the extinction of humans and animals. If the Flood were merely local, God could have sent them to a safer part of the world. God warned Noah about the Flood 120 years prior to its start. Surely, Noah and his family could have traveled a great distance in that time. Also, if the Flood was local, the ark was unnecessarily large. Until the first metal ships were constructed in modern times, the ark was the largest ship ever built. It was big enough to house representative pairs of every created-kind of air-breathing, land animal on Earth.

Humans Populated The Entire World. After more than 1600 years of habitation on Earth, the planet's population was surely large (millions or billions). The Bible confirms that (a) Man had multiplied upon the face of the Earth (Genesis 6:1), (b) Violence and corruption filled the Earth (Genesis 6:11-12). The Bible is clear that man could not have existed only in the Mesopotamian region - a region too small to support such a large population, especially considering the natural dispersion affect of a violent society.

All Humans Were Killed. The Bible clearly teaches that all flesh died...every man (Genesis 7:21). Genesis 9:1 confirms that only Noah's family was saved and that every person living today is descended from his family.

All Air-Breathing, Land Animals Killed. The world's entire population of air-breathing, land animals died, except those taken into the ark (Genesis 7:21) - "everything on Earth" (Genesis 6:17) - "all living creatures of every kind on the Earth" (Genesis 9:16). If only those animals in a specific geographic location died, it would seem unnecessary for God to protect pairs in the ark for the express purpose of preventing their extinction. Surely there would be representatives of their kinds in other areas. If, on the other hand, there were some unique kinds of animals in the local flood's path, then it would seem more logical for God to send representative pairs out of the area, rather than to the ark, as He did. The Bible is clear that all the air-breathing, land animals perished during the flood, except those preserved with Noah - from which all modern animals are descended.

A "Cataclysm," Not A Mere Flood. Both Hebrew (Old Testament) and Greek (New Testament) use words to describe Noah's flood which are different than the ordinary words for flood. In this way, Noah's flood was represented as a totally unique occurrence. [Hebrew / "Mabbool" - Greek / "Kataklusmos" (cataclysm)].

God's Rainbow Promise. God promised never again to send a global flood (Genesis 8:21, 9:8-17). This promise is demonstrated by the symbol of the rainbow, a sign for God's promise to all the Earth. The rainbow is a sign to every living creature, mankind and animals. If this promise was not made to all creatures on Earth, then God has broken His promise. Local floods have repeatedly killed hundreds and even thousands of humans and animals since Noah's time.

Why Stay In The Ark A Year?! Noah was in the ark for more than a year, not just 40 days (Genesis 8:14). 53 weeks is absurdly long to stay in the ark for a local flood since dry land would have been just over the horizon. After the flood waters had been going down for 4 months, the dove could still find no suitable ground (Genesis 8:9). This does not seem to fit the circumstances for a local flood in which the dove could fly to dry land. However, these situations are consistent if the Flood was global.

The Whole Earth Was Devastated. God said, "I am surely going to destroy both them (the people) and the Earth" (Genesis 6:13b). The global extent of the Flood is referred to more than 30 times in Genesis 6-9 alone! In Isaiah 54:9, God states, "I swore that the waters of Noah would never again cover the Earth." Peter delivered a clear global warning, confirming that God created the Earth, devastated it by the Flood, and will one day destroy it again by fire (2 Peter 3:5-7). Peter certainly did not mean that just a local area on Earth would be burned. Just as the Flood was global, so will be the final judgment.

The Bible specifically teaches that the Flood of Noah's time was global in extent and that all air-breathing, land animals and all humans were killed, except those saved in the Ark. How could the Bible be any more clear concerning the global nature of the Flood?! Or, if this was actually a local flood, how could the Bible have been any more misleading about its extent?!
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Taken from http://christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-c005.html

To say that some stories are literal and some are not begs the question: How can you tell where rhetoric ends and fact begins?
 
Ugh, let's not go over the flood again
smile.gif


The last time was in the Creationism thread and it basically came down to a cut-'n-paste-off. For every pro account there's a con account. What was NOT covered though was the rainbow aspect. So if anyone has anything to say about that, go for it.

As far as the literal aspect, that's why I started a poll on whether people thought the bible was fully literal or peppered with figurative stories. Half the people that voted for figurative inclusion didn't say how they knew the story was figurative, no big surprise there. Really, Christians are all over the board here. Some believe it's fully literal, that every story in the Bible actually happened and then you get a wide spectrum of what people believe is figurative and what isn't. Things would be so much simpler if there was ONE English translation of the Bible and ONE denomination, but people can't seem to agree on the one book that God gave his followers.
 
It is not hard to tell when those talking in the Bible are speaking in parables, it pretty straight forward. Other than that all the other stories are historical, not fiction. The Flood is one of the easiest to prove based on scientific data. Also Christianity is not the only faith that has the story about the flood, all the big relegions have a teaching on that type of catcylsmic event happening. As for the impossibility of a global flood, the world was changed that day and water came from both above and from beneath (from the center of the earth)

J.
 
Water came from the center of the earth? I thought the center of the earth was made up of molten material, where did the water come from?

And, no offense, but if the flood was so easy to "prove", then there wouldn't be any room for an opposing theory, but there are. A global flood is just a theory.
 
Gen 7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

Fountains of the great deep is part of the reference for this, also the scientific evidence I refered to is the see salt deposits that have been found in the highest mountains of the planet in caves. these deposits could have only been made by such a flood. If you do any amount od study inot other beliefs, and read the historical stories(myths) you will see stories about the flood. Any true non biased scientists cannot disprove the flood, they simply try to disprove, or rather prove that it happened for other reasons. its more commonplace for them to base it on something that could help prove their current thoughts such as a threat of global warming melting the polar ice caps.

j.

P.S. trying to keep posts brief to keep people interested
smile.gif
 
Erm, did you read the mindprod site? Sorry for continuing this discussion since it is clearly talked to death, but here it is in case you missed it:

Reasons for refuting the Global flood

According to this passage, the flood covered the highest mountains. Everest is 8,848 metres high. How much water would be required to fill the Earth to this height?
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]
V = 4/3 * π * r3
= 4/3 * π * 6387.248 km3
= 1.09151 x 10 to the 12 cubic kilometres (1.09151x1012 km3)

Now, the Earth at sea level:

V = 4/3 * π * r3
= 4/3 * π * 6378.4 km3
= 1.08698 x 10 to the 12 cubic kilometres (1.08698x12 km3)

The difference between these two figures is the amount of water needed to just cover the Earth:

4.525 x 10 to the ninth cubic kilometres (4.525x109 km3) Or, to put into a more sensible number, 4,525,000,000,000 cubic kilometres.
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i.e a huge amount of water. Read the essay properly. I know indeed there is evidence that the Flood occured on a global scale, but face it; that much water would be about 4,525,000,000,000,000,000,000 kilograms.

Considering glaciers like the Wisconsin advance create depressions in the crust of the Earth and is currently rising (glacial rebound), this glacier is about 0.222% of the Global flood water, yet this water of 4.525x1021 kg has had no effect of the kind as glaciers have on the earth.

My apologies, I am simply repeating parts of the essay, but make sure you understand those parts before dismissing them out of hand.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Jehovahjava @ Sep. 20 2004,7:31)]Gen 7:11  In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

Fountains of the great deep is part of the reference for this, also the scientific evidence I refered to is the see salt deposits that have been found in the highest mountains of the planet in caves. these deposits could have only been made by such a flood. If you do any amount od study inot other beliefs, and read the historical stories(myths) you will see stories about the flood. Any true non biased scientists cannot disprove the flood, they simply try to disprove, or rather prove that it happened for other reasons. its more commonplace for them to base it on something that could help prove their current thoughts such as a threat of global warming melting the polar ice caps.

j.

P.S. trying to keep posts brief to keep people interested
smile.gif
Click to expand...
What exactly does "Fountains of the Great Deep" refer to? And how did you get that to mean "center of the earth". Are you saying that at one time the center of the earth was water? How did magma replace it?

And I never said that other civilizations didn't have flood myths, some actually predate the Bible, namely the Sumerian story.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]It is not hard to tell when those talking in the Bible are speaking in parables, it pretty straight forward
Click to expand...
Indeed, but the question still stands: HOW do you know when to take something as a parable (Exclude Jesus' parables, we al know they were hypothetical situations to prove a point/ teach a lesson)and when something is fact? If it were that obvious, there would not be Christians who take Adam and Eve and the Flood as rhetoric.
 
As always, it's best to see both sides. Here's a link to a site that has some qualms with answersingensis.org: http://home.austarnet.com.au/stear/answers_in_genesis.htm

An exerpt from the page: "At first glance [answersingenesis.org] appears to be chock full of interesting articles dealing with the creation/science debate. However, further investigation reveals its many flaws, including a lack of proper scientific argument, a propensity to quote prominent scientists out of context and a willingness to use the words of long dead scientists in an attempt to lend the creationist argument some credibility."

And this one

Concerning the bibliography page on AIG from Skeptic News: "In and of itself, it is very unimpressive to anyone familiar with the issues if only because it rather short. The list of biologists that accept evolution would fill a book as would a list of geologists who do not accept young earth creationism (YEC). Furthermore many are from fields which are not relevant. Do you visit a foot doctor for brain surgery? Do you visit a civil engineer or a lawyer for brain surgery? Some on the list are theologians. Also included are scientists, engineers, and mathematicians who don't deal with living things."
 
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