Free will?

[Medjai]

You may immediately jump to the answer of "Of course!"

Initially, I am going to ask you to find a Bible verse that shows this to be true. However irrelevent to the argument since I take the Bible to be nothing more than a compilation of stories to which moral lessons can be attributed and inferred from.

Now, the Christian God is said to be Omniscient.

This alone destroys the concept of free will. For if God knows each and every action, my acting in opposition to his 'knowledge' of what I am going to do would thus negate his omniscience.

Simplified...

God knows what I will do, if I do something other than what he thinks I will do, he did not know I would do it and thus is not omniscient.

So you have three choices (that I can think of at the moment so if you can think of other options add them accordingly).

1. God is omniscient, free will does not exist.
2. God is not omniscient, thus free will can logically exist.
3. God was omniscient, but decided to limit his omniscience as a means to allow for free will.

The first two answers are entirely acceptable in my opinion. The third is absurd.

If God was in fact at one time omniscient, he 'at one time' knew exactly everything that I would do, thus my doing something in contrast to what he once 'knew' I would do would negate his past omniscience meaning he was never omniscient to begin with.

The argument to this could be as follows:

God's knowing what you are going to choose does not mean that you did not choose to do it.

This is not true, if God had a "Divine Plan" thus developed through his omniscience, everything happens in accordance to the divinity of his plan. As such nothing can go contrary to that which he planned in forethought.

He created us with the knowledge of everything we would do, in that it was his 'plan'. If this is so and we can not act in contrast to the set course of his plan as to everything (including thoughts) we do not have free will. We are not responsible for our actions and the concept of Hell is a sadistic creation through which God can torture souls for eternity.

The concept in and of itself is of course horribly grotesque.

Belief is a subconcious process. Thus I can not force myself to believe in God, to do so would be artificial and in essence a 'lie' meaning it would be immoral for me to do this. As such, in order for me to attain a God belief, sufficient evidence that is acceptable to 'me' must be provided to allow for me to believe. Since God is omniscient, he knows exactly what it would take for me to believe and what would save me from hellfire. Thus those who burn in hell are not at fault.

Finally, hell offers no other retribution other than that of suffering. Thus the 'tough love' card can not be played. As one punishes in love as a means of educating, eternal punishment dissallows for rehabilitation, which is the entire concept on which the idea of 'tough love' is based on.

I would love to hear your views on free will and how God can be omnibenevolent while at the same time allow for his creations to be unjustly (in his 'perfect justice') to be tortured eternally.

 

[LionOfJudah]

are you a father, or work with children closely?

 

[mrpopdrinker]

First on to your statment on hell, hell was originally created for lucifer and the angels he took with him if you do not accept Jesus then you are cut off from fellowship with God and thats where you go so hell is not a sadistic creaton where God can tourture souls forever now onto the argument. Yehweh who is God is omniscient now you are saying that because he knows everything we have no free will not true. God does have a purpose for us but it is up to us whether we follow it or not God knows what you will do yes he can look into the future to see the choices you make but that in no way meens we dont have free will.

 

[Medjai]

Pop, yes it does in that we can not do something different than what he sees us as doing. If his plan is divine, everything within it happens as planned. Thus my choosing something different than planned 'for me' would negate both the divinity of his plan and that of his omniscience.

As for Hell, God feels that if one does not believe in Jesus, which is beyond that individuals control, he deserves eternal hellfire? Seems rather sadistic to me, additionally, I never once claimed that God himself is involved in the torture.

If Hell is existent, and God is omnipresent, can I not logically conclude that God is in hell and as such not only aware (omniscience) but actually observing (ominpresence) those in hell being tortured?

Lion, I am not a father. I do not see the relevance in this question. If God has perfect love, his love is greater than man's love of himself. A man who loves himself can not wish to be eternally tortured. God therefore (in his PERFECT love) does not want man to suffer eternally. God is omnipotent, as a result one can logically conclude that a) No one goes to hell. b) Hell doesn't exist in the Biblical sense. OR c) God is saddistic in nature.

 

[mrpopdrinker]

First of all i really want to get rid of this argument on hell because you are extremly flawed in christian theology, we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of god therefore sin is on us Jesus died so that the sin could be wiped clean god cannot Look at sin so if you refuse Jesus then you cannot enter heaven. Now back to the free will debate. God does have a plan for you but you are certainly not following it medjai because you have freewill and you have chosen not to follow God. He can see what you are going to do that does not take away from your free will. Ok I dont know if I am going to explain this right because i havent read up on this in awhile but i will do my best if I do make a mistake I am sure somone will correct me but here goes anyway. God has two will there is the will of god that is absolute such as the rapture no matter what the rapture will happen, then God has another will I forget what it is called but anyway this other will of god is basically the will for your life and he gives you the freedom to choose from it or not He can look into the future and see what you will do but it is still up to you to choose.

 

[LionOfJudah]

no because you can never fullyrealize something unless you have "tryed it".

now then the reason i asked is because of my analogy

if you had a son, daughter, and lets say you are in the kitchen and they come in, while the stove is still on and nice and hot, and you can see they are going to reach for, knowning the outcome, you have a few choices to choose from
1) stop them
2) warn them
3) dont say anything
now then, does this child have any freewill sinse you know excatly what will happen to him/her if they touch the hot stove?

 

[Ultima Avatar]

All right dude. You started out with a good argument but it degenerated (as I, sadly, expected it too. Atheists these days) to a piddly wisp.

I'll destroy your argument that, if I do something contrary to what supposedly God knows I'll do, then that negates his Godhood.
1. If God is omniscient, then I can do nothing that He does not know of.
I love if-then's. Okay. So God knows it all. Then would not my action be known to him?
...it's that simple. If I go on a shooting spree, God knew it would come. Because God knows it all does not mean he will encourage it or discourage it. That's the thing about free will. If I decided to go on a charity spree, God would do neither to discourage or encourage it.

Let's say I know that John Ashcroft is going to commit suicide...with such knowledge, I COULD go to someone who might talk to John about it and he MAY not commit suicide. In the end, he may still. Or I COULD just sit and then he plugs himself and it's all over. My knowledge did not prevent his actions.

2. If I know a videogame is available for sale at a store, and I do nothing to buy it, and it gets sold to someone else, then my knowledge didn't help me out too much, did it? If I know how to build a crude A-Bomb, but I do nothing with said knowledge, does that negate my knowledge?

Negatory. Ergo, your argument is shot full of holes. The presence of knowledge and the outcome of actions related to said knowledge does not negate my knowledge.


Now on to hellfire and brimstone! I love this argument, partly because not even Christians are agreed on this subject.

1. Jesus said hell is eternal darkness.
2. Jesus said hell was an eternal lake of fire.
3. Jesus said trust in Him will let one avoid hell and live with Him for eternity.

What is fire? Is it heat? Or is it a visible heat source? If hell is total darkness, then how can one see the flames? Isn't that contradictory?

OR, like Jesus did often, was he speaking figuratively, just comparing what it will be like to be in hell to flames, darkness, eternal blaming of everyone around you?

Now. Let's presuppose this. We'll go on two examples.
1. Hell is a place of torment, as many Christians and places seem to think it is and depict it as. What kind of loving God would do this, right?
Answer: None. Torment is in no way compatible with love. So (following Medjai logic...) God is either a sadist or hell does not exist if God does as well.


2. Hell is separation from God. The ultimate end of it all. It will bring unspeakable pain to you if you actually end up in hell, for you will have eternity to think of the chance you had to avoid separation from God but you chose to have separation instead, and that is the most crushing thing you will ever experience.

Now I'm going to clear up something right now. This will be a long post, so get ready.
When people die, their spirit/soul leaves their body. WE are dead and in some kind of place separated from God until Christ's return. Maybe we're ghosts. Maybe we're in the holding bin in Sheol where the unrighteous go. Either way, we are not yet burning in eternal flames.
At the Day of Judgement, our bodies are raised and reunited with our spirits. AT this point is the part of eternal condemnation or eternal commendation. Now, personally, I believe there to be a place in the universe that is cut away from God where those who are headed for hell end up.
Why? God cannot abide sin. He is the antithesis of sin. He and sin cannot cooexist. So at the end of it all, a place is cut off from everything else, and that includes God. Forever. He cannot be with you, and you cannot be with Him. And that ends it all. Sure it will be sad, tearjerking thing. Screams, anger, and whatnot. But I do not think it will be a place of torment forever and ever and ever...the torment will come from the thoughts that you had every available chance to believe in God as your personal Savior, but you rejected it at all times, and now, this is the fruit of such. THAT will be the ultimate thing, worse than eternal flames, darkness, and worms in my intestines. Never has God ever shown such torturous characteristics, so why would he become inconsistent (thereby disproving his Godhood) at the end and actually condemn one to a place of "torture?"

Now why do I say such stuff? Well, read your Bible, and think a little. In HEbrews 12:29 it mentions that God is a consuming fire...does that mean literally God is some ball of flame? No...that's figurative. We're told that God will come with a sword out of his mouth...do we actually think he will come down with Excalibur swinging out of mandibles?
As to the worms, in Christ's day there were tons of animal sacrifices, and a spot where the bodies were basically stockpiled. What happens to dead bodies? Rot. What happens to rot? Worms. Disgusting. Figurative. To make a picture to a people that demanded a sign.


On the note of being omni-omni...God was not present at the crucifixion, if you noticed that. Christ died without the Father there for Him, because Christ took on him every single sin ever. God cannot stand sin, as we often read in the Bible. So God could not be there for Jesus Christ at that point. But when Christ descended to Sheol to free the captives to the world, he defeated death AND Hades, and arose. Why? Because he is God. And he is sinless. Why? Because he is God. God and sin are polar opposites. One cannot be where the other is. God is on this world, though, a sin haven. How does that work? The blood of Christ erased our sins. When we profess our faith in Christ, our sins are covered, and God and the believers can cooexist together.

NOTE: The immediate above is what I believe...may not be necesarily true. Spiritually knowledgable...verify or nullify, please.




More arguments from this section, I hope?

 

[mrpopdrinker]

Ultima I wanna argue with you on what you said about hell. First off you said it is dark and fire produces light so there may be no fire in hell not to long ago a guy caught on fire but the fire was invisible so fire could still be in hell.

Quote[/b] ]When we profess our faith in Christ, our sins are covered

Now now you should know thats wrong they are cleaned off the old Jewish animal sacrifices coverd Jesus's blood cleans.

Quote[/b] ]WE are dead and in some kind of place separated from God until Christ's return. Maybe we're ghosts. Maybe we're in the holding bin in Sheol where the unrighteous go.

For a christian absent from the body present with the Lord. Sorry ultima but i had to clear those up.

 

[timor]

Quote[/b] (Ultima Avatar @ Sep. 13 2003,12:27)]1. If God is omniscient, then I can do nothing that He does not know of.
I love if-then's. Okay. So God knows it all. Then would not my action be known to him?
...it's that simple. If I go on a shooting spree, God knew it would come. Because God knows it all does not mean he will encourage it or discourage it. That's the thing about free will. If I decided to go on a charity spree, God would do neither to discourage or encourage it.

Let's say I know that John Ashcroft is going to commit suicide...with such knowledge, I COULD go to someone who might talk to John about it and he MAY not commit suicide. In the end, he may still. Or I COULD just sit and then he plugs himself and it's all over. My knowledge did not prevent his actions.

2. If I know a videogame is available for sale at a store, and I do nothing to buy it, and it gets sold to someone else, then my knowledge didn't help me out too much, did it? If I know how to build a crude A-Bomb, but I do nothing with said knowledge, does that negate my knowledge?

Negatory. Ergo, your argument is shot full of holes. The presence of knowledge and the outcome of actions related to said knowledge does not negate my knowledge.

Quote[/b] ]1. If God is omniscient, then I can do nothing that He does not know of.
I love if-then's. Okay. So God knows it all. Then would not my action be known to him?
...it's that simple. If I go on a shooting spree, God knew it would come. Because God knows it all does not mean he will encourage it or discourage it. That's the thing about free will. If I decided to go on a charity spree, God would do neither to discourage or encourage it.

Let's say I know that John Ashcroft is going to commit suicide...with such knowledge, I COULD go to someone who might talk to John about it and he MAY not commit suicide. In the end, he may still. Or I COULD just sit and then he plugs himself and it's all over. My knowledge did not prevent his actions.

2. If I know a videogame is available for sale at a store, and I do nothing to buy it, and it gets sold to someone else, then my knowledge didn't help me out too much, did it? If I know how to build a crude A-Bomb, but I do nothing with said knowledge, does that negate my knowledge?

Negatory. Ergo, your argument is shot full of holes. The presence of knowledge and the outcome of actions related to said knowledge does not negate my knowledge.

Such an allegory is inappropriate, Ultima. In the instances you mentioned, you are not neither omniscient nor omnipotent.

For one thing, you may *think* John Ashcroft is going to kill himself, but you can't truly know, because you're not omniscient, and you do not *know* the future. Furthermore, you lack omnipotence, and therefore the will, to cement the suicide into the threads of time.

An omniscient god, however, DOES know the future. He's omniscient, so he knows *everything*. What this means is that John Ashcroft has no choice BUT to pull the trigger, because to do otherwise WOULD negate God's omniscience. If John Ashcroft took the bullets out of the gun and went on with life, God would have been wrong. However, since God KNEW that John Ashcroft was going to do something, John Ashcroft had no choice BUT to do it. His free will was taken from him.

You seem to be missing the main point of the argument, which is this:

1) God is omniscient.
2) God knows our future actions.
3) If we act in a manner that differs from the actions God "knew" we would take, we have negated his omniscience.
4) Therefore, either God is not omniscient, or we have no free will.

The way you guys have been approaching it thus far has been like God *kinda* knows what's going to happen. Just like I know that Lord of the Rings: Return of the King is coming out on December 18th, but I'm not totally sure what the price is going to be. And heck, I don't even *know* that - something could come up, pushing the release date back further. I just don't know. An omniscient God, however, *does* know exactly what is going to happen - and if something happens that he didn't expect, he's not omniscient.

I don't really know how else to say it, so I'll just wait for you guys to respond, or for Medjai to say it 100x better.

Pax.

P.S. Hey guys! It's been a while since I've posted here. After an inability to continue to commit "doublethink" (go read George Orwell's 1984), I've been an agnostic atheist for about a month, month and a half. I look forward to our upcoming discussions, and invite you to come converse with me, Medjai, and others of like mind at www.infidelguy.com . The link for the forums is on the left.

 

[Medjai]

I will disregard your initial ad hominem attack...

You create a straw man in regards to my first point when you claim this is what I am saying:
1. If God is omniscient, then I can do nothing that He does not know of.

This is not my argument. I am saying that any action I will undertake is known in advance by God. Thus I can not act contrary to what he knows I will do. Thus my actions are to be played out in a certain fashion. I can not act in a fashion that falls into a contrary event to which has been in the forethought of God. Since 'free will' allows for potentially any action (that is physically possible) to potentially occur. If God knows indefinately as to exactly what I will do, there is not other feasably potential actions for me to undertake. Thus free will can not exist. This is not a terribly hard concept to grasp...

As for your Ashcroft analogy...

Let's say you KNOW with absolute certainty that Ashcroft is going to commit suicide. Thus NO MATTER WHAT, he is GOING to commit suicide. This is to the extent of which God knows your actions. If Ashcroft doesn't commit suicide, you were WRONG. This logic applies to omniscience. If free will exists, omniscience doesn't. To know everything absolutely ELIMINATES POTENTIALS, potentials allow for free will. Thus everything has ONE set course. If you have a legitimate argument for this please present it, the argument presented by Ultima is simply a straw man.

Example two doesn't even address my argument at all...

Your conclusion:
"The presence of knowledge and the outcome of actions related to said knowledge does not negate my knowledge."

I am not arguing as to the 'outcome'. I am arguing as to his knowledge of the actions themselves. If he knows exactly what I will do, my doing anything other than what he knew I would do negates his knowledge on that event. Omniscience requires absolute knowledge, thus if he is wrong on anything he can not be omniscient. I can not act contrary to his knowledge, thus my actions are limited to a single absolute, fate if you will. If God is omniscient, the ILLUSION of free will could exist, but literal free will can not.

The Hell argument...

"Now, personally, I believe there to be a place in the universe that is cut away from God where those who are headed for hell end up."

If God is omnipresent, he is in Hell. If you disagree with this, you do not comprehend the meaning of omnipresence.

Ultima, I am wondering how it is that you get to decide which parts of the Bible are figurative... seems a little self serving if you ask me. The hell thing is just an interesting addition, but it could be argued several ways.

Lion, the difference is this. When you let the child touch the stove, you do it for a reason, so that they can learn a lesson and not make the mistake again. ETERNAL TORTURE doesn't allow for one to apply a learned lesson.

Lion, you are looking at my argument incorrectly as well. The point is, if you know with absolute certainty that they will actually TOUCH the stove, they will touch it or you didn't know they would. Thus to be feasably compatible with your knowledge, they must touch the stove or you were wrong.

Mr. Pop, you are mistaken. You are speaking of a protestant theology. Although even some protestants feel that one must attain salvation through good works. I am very saddened that you think we 'deserve' to be tortured eternally. By your logic, God created us knowingly making us deserving of eternal damnation. Such a being (IMHO) does not deserve to be acknowledged let alone worshipped.

God has two wills? Please show me this in the Buy-bull, I never knew God was a scizophrenic.

 

[mpty]

This topic brings back memories too.. whoa.. even from like..the old trib forums...

Some things don't change... he he!

 

[Thaddius]

Ok first off, omniscient means
1 : having infinite awareness, understanding, and insight
2 : possessed of universal or complete knowledge

Quote[/b] ]Now, the Christian God is said to be Omniscient.

This alone destroys the concept of free will. For if God knows each and every action, my acting in opposition to his 'knowledge' of what I am going to do would thus negate his omniscience.

How do you know whether your action is within or out of the will of God?  Your making assumtions here that  We "know" Gods will for us.  Just because God knows what we will do in our lives doesnt mean he will stop us from doing it.   He knows the choices we make before we ever make them.  Why doesn't He stop us?  Because then there would be no free will.  

I don't even see how your arguement is even relevent here.  You don't know what God knows, so you don't know if your acting according to His will or not.  You /think/ you know.

Quote[/b] ]Simplified...

God knows what I will do, if I do something other than what he thinks I will do, he did not know I would do it and thus is not omniscient.

So you have three choices (that I can think of at the moment so if you can think of other options add them accordingly).

1. God is omniscient, free will does not exist.
2. God is not omniscient, thus free will can logically exist.
3. God was omniscient, but decided to limit his omniscience as a means to allow for free will.

The first two answers are entirely acceptable in my opinion. The third is absurd.

4.  God is omniscient and we have free will in our lives.  The choices we make do not negate the fact he is omniscient.

You have a choice.  God knows what choice you will make, but He will not stop you from making the choice you make.  Will you accept His Son as your savior and gain Eternal salvation?  Or, will you reject His Son and spend an eternity in the lake of fire?  That is as simple and straitforward as it can get.  The punishment is for rejecting God.  But you still have the choice to make yourself.



Timor, I find it sad that you have been swayed away from a belief in God.  I can only pray for you and hope that God will open your eyes and your heart.

 

[Medjai]

Thaddius, omniscience disallows potentials, this means that I only have the illusion of choice but in actuality only one choice can be made. As God knows this choice, my acting 'freely' would require potential other choices, as such God could only guess, if this is the case he is not omniscient. The feasable conclusion is that:

1. We have free will.
2. God is not omniscient.

Why don't you just say he isn't omniscient, do you require an all knowing God? Hell, if God was almost all knowing I would not think of him to be ungodly.

 

[timor]

Quote[/b] (Thaddius @ Sep. 13 2003,6:35)]

Quote[/b] ]How do you know whether your action is within or out of the will of God? Your making assumtions here that We "know" Gods will for us. Just because God knows what we will do in our lives doesnt mean he will stop us from doing it. He knows the choices we make before we ever make them. Why doesn't He stop us? Because then there would be no free will.

What do you mean he doesn't stop us? How can he? He knows what we're going to do - therefore, we can do no differently. That is the main point we're trying to make here.

Quote[/b] ]4. God is omniscient and we have free will in our lives. The choices we make do not negate the fact he is omniscient.

You have a choice. God knows what choice you will make, but He will not stop you from making the choice you make. Will you accept His Son as your savior and gain Eternal salvation? Or, will you reject His Son and spend an eternity in the lake of fire? That is as simple and straitforward as it can get. The punishment is for rejecting God. But you still have the choice to make yourself.

That fourth option doesn't exist, because as we've shown, omniscience and free will cannot coexist. We've shown this through logical argument. Please show us the flaw in the argument, and the correct logic to follow. So far, all we've been met with is opposition to pure logic based upon pure faith and an apparent inability to even consider an opposing view. This is as simple and straightforward as it gets. Because God knows what our future actions are, we do not have the ability to act otherwise. It is clear. It is simple. It makes sense. It's something that, even when I was a Christian, I understood and could not rationalize away. I urge you to simply think about it!

Quote[/b] ]Timor, I find it sad that you have been swayed away from a belief in God. I can only pray for you and hope that God will open your eyes and your heart.

You may find it interesting that first I was "swayed" away from a belief in Christianity before a total agnosticism. I find it sad that all of you, my freinds, continue to commit doublethink and continue to blind yourselves to logic in order to bend your lives around a book. Come on, people, it's only the truth if it really is the truth - and if it isn't, it isn't, no matter how hard you try to make it so.

BTW, thanks for your prayers, I guess, as I know you mean well. I'll go play an extra round of Max300 on DDR for you, hoping that YOU will open your OWN eyes and your OWN mind - then the heart will follow, when intellect gains supremecy over emotion.

 

[timor]

Quote[/b] (Medjai @ Sep. 13 2003,7:05)]

Quote[/b] ]Thaddius, omniscience disallows potentials, this means that I only have the illusion of choice but in actuality only one choice can be made. As God knows this choice, my acting 'freely' would require potential other choices, as such God could only guess, if this is the case he is not omniscient. The feasable conclusion is that:

1. We have free will.
2. God is not omniscient.

Why don't you just say he isn't omniscient, do you require an all knowing God? Hell, if God was almost all knowing I would not think of him to be ungodly.

Exactly. The key words there are illusion and potential. Those two, potential in particular, are what leave your arguments helpless.

 

[Thaddius]

Your trying to keep God inside the box of what we as humans understand.   God is beyond that.

Quote[/b] ]Why don't you just say he isn't omniscient, do you require an all knowing God? Hell, if God was almost all knowing I would not think of him to be ungodly.

If He isnt all knowing, then all the prophesies in the old testement of the Messiah would be alot less accurate.  Any one thing could have changed and the story would have been completly different.  But they arn't are they?  To lay out such a plan for salvation would take an Omniscient God.


I would rather believe that I do not have free will than believe that God is not all knowing.  But unfortunatly, you have yet to convince me that I don't have free will or that God is not all knowing.  I still believe both to be true.   You have a choice and a chance still for salvation yourself.  Considering  the alternative to Eternity with God, I'll take God.

Timor, I don't care how intellectual you two think you sound...the facts remain the same.  As soon as your intellectual science can find a way to disprove my Bible, you might have an arguement.  Until then....cheers.
Cory

 

[timor]

Quote[/b] (Thaddius @ Sep. 13 2003,8:10)]

Quote[/b] ]Your trying to keep God inside the box of what we as humans understand. God is beyond that.

Logic is only a "box" if you try to defy it. I really see no way these two things can be reconciled. Perhaps you could shed some light?

Quote[/b] ]If He isnt all knowing, then all the prophesies in the old testement of the Messiah would be alot less accurate. Any one thing could have changed and the story would have been completly different. But they arn't are they? To lay out such a plan for salvation would take an Omniscient God.

Or omnipotence, and therefore the power to, no matter what, put whatever he wanted into place. *shrug*

Quote[/b] ]I would rather believe that I do not have free will than believe that God is not all knowing. But unfortunatly, you have yet to convince me that I don't have free will or that God is not all knowing. I still believe both to be true. You have a choice and a chance still for salvation yourself. Considering the alternative to Eternity with God, I'll take God.

You're right, the former would be more reassuring. However, your Bible tells you BOTH are true. You say we haven't convinced you. Why? Have you even thought about it? Please, show us the flaw in our logic. We've shown the flaws in Ultima's and others', so why can't you show us the flaw in ours? If there is no flaw, you are simply committing intellectual dishonesty, rejecting truth for myth. And this thread isn't about salvation, it's about free will. Nice of you to stealthily throw that in there, though *rolls eyes*.

Quote[/b] ]Timor, I don't care how intellectual you two think you sound...the facts remain the same. As soon as your intellectual science can find a way to disprove my Bible, you might have an arguement. Until then....cheers.
Cory

I don't care how intellectual I sound, either, only how truthful and logical. I couldn't care less how I sound. Find a way to disprove your Bible? Well, we've already exposed one logical fallacy in your buybull, haven't we? But fear not, for I am almost certain that Medjai and I will cover that ground in due time.. Cheers.

 

[CCGR]

Timor,
hey before saying we're buying bull, please make up your mind..are you agnostic believe in an intelligent designer? or atheist believe we came from nothing/evolved? We have faith and if you see it as blindness I don't care what people think. Not here to serve mankind.

let's try and see what we have in common before ripping eachother apart.

Do you belive in the historical man on this earth named Jesus who it's been documented (other than the Bible) that he rose from the dead?

Assuming you two believe in evolution? or how did we get here, universe?

 

[Medjai]

Oh, now Jesus rose from the dead and it is documented in sources other than the Bible. Maybe, by sources USING the Bible as evidence.

The Romans were very good at Keeping records, they never recorded the hanging of Jesus let alone his ressurection.

The 'prophecies' in the Bible are a joke right?

Don't get into 'Bible Code' with me.

If God is beyond logic, I have to ask if he would be able to create a rock that he would be unable to move. If God can not perform outside of logic this question is void do to its illogical nature, but if God can perform outside of logic the question holds strong.

Science doesn't prove things absolutely, it merely aims to explain things. Science's goal is not to 'disprove' your Bible, to think this to be the case is rather paranoid of you.

Quote[/b] ]I would rather believe that I do not have free will than believe that God is not all knowing.

Oh, so now we are going by what you 'want' to believe?

We aren't here to make you believe anything, only to present the other side so that you might have a slightly more open mind...

 

[timor]

Quote[/b] (CCGR @ Sep. 13 2003,8:59)]Timor,
hey before saying we're buying bull, please make up your mind..are you agnostic believe in an intelligent designer? or atheist believe we came from nothing/evolved? We have faith and if you see it as blindness I don't care what people think. Not here to serve mankind.

let's try and see what we have in common before ripping eachother apart.

Do you belive in the historical man on this earth named Jesus who it's been documented (other than the Bible) that he rose from the dead?

Assuming you two believe in evolution? or how did we get here, universe?

Make up my mind? When have I contradicted myself? In the first post I told you that i'm an agnostic atheist...to say i have no reason, no evidence, to believe that a god exists, and yet believe in on anyway, would be hypocritical

i have not yet formed an opinion as to the historical authenticity of Jesus..I'd like to see these other sources, if you please....but I plan to look into it....i'd like to look into the mythicism angle.....but basically, if the only thing i have to go by on it is the Bible, i have these two opinions

1) The bible is logically fallacious and errant/contradictory. Therefore, I cannot trust it as the word of God; it's historical reliability is in the air at the moment.

2) If the Bible *is* a reliable historical document recording the life of Jesus, I still don't see Jesus as the Messiah based on numerous reasons.

But, again, this is a thread on free will, not on Jesus' Messiaship or the validity of the Bible (although it does question the validity of the Bible, it is on a different realm)