cc.slim
Moderator
Gambling has left Vegas and landed in our heartland via Bingo casino's and it's presence is being felt. I need food to approach and convict in wisdoms way. What does God say about this?
Gambling
- Thread starter cc.slim
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Durruck
Pirate!
First thing that comes to mind is Luke 16:10 “One who is faithful in a very little is also faithful in much, and one who is dishonest in a very little is also dishonest in much. 11So if you have not been trustworthy in handling worldly wealth, who will trust you with true riches? 12And if you have not been trustworthy with someone else's property, who will give you property of your own?
13"No servant can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money."
Although I'm not sure if verse 10 is a spot-on idea of what you're trying to convey quickly, if you have an opportunity for open discussion, the whole of the text should drive the point home.
It comes down to this: I hear people say "If I had (some dollar amount), I'd be happy and do X, Y, or Z". But the problem is that if you're the type of person that lives paycheck to paycheck, blowing every last cent on junk, then having more money won't fix your problems, it will make them worse. If you are responsible with the $5 you have to your name, then you will continue to use that same good judgment when you have $10, $100, $1,000, or even $1,000,000.
But if you waste your only $5 on the casino, you'll do the same thing with a million. There's a reason that so many people that win the lotto turn around and have to declare bankruptcy within 10 years.
13"No servant can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money."
Although I'm not sure if verse 10 is a spot-on idea of what you're trying to convey quickly, if you have an opportunity for open discussion, the whole of the text should drive the point home.
It comes down to this: I hear people say "If I had (some dollar amount), I'd be happy and do X, Y, or Z". But the problem is that if you're the type of person that lives paycheck to paycheck, blowing every last cent on junk, then having more money won't fix your problems, it will make them worse. If you are responsible with the $5 you have to your name, then you will continue to use that same good judgment when you have $10, $100, $1,000, or even $1,000,000.
But if you waste your only $5 on the casino, you'll do the same thing with a million. There's a reason that so many people that win the lotto turn around and have to declare bankruptcy within 10 years.
Odale
Active Member
Bible said:
Durruck, I find it amazing how you can pick out versus like you do, haha. I know I couldn't do that to save my life!
After reading the verses I don't if 11 and 12 really provide a sound argument. I suppose if you are really good at statistics and other forms of math, then you could be or even would be trustworthy in handling worldly wealth... counting cards, anyone?
Verse 13 seems to apply to having large amounts of money in general.
Just the way I see the verses. I don't think gambling is bad so long as you don't allow it to get out of control.
Durruck
Pirate!
I'm going to quote & respond out of order - I wanna leave the big points for last
-Gambling/Lotto? Wait until I explain below for that one...
-Married into it? Nope, my wife started with a zero-balance, too.
-Insurance payout after an accident? I wish
-Inheritance? Nah, nobody in my family has money, either.
-Worked for it, spending wisely, being faithful to God by giving what is ask of me, etc? Yep.
Counting cards is cheating. It's a dishonest practice, nearly as dishonest as what the casinos do on the other side of the table.
Here's what I was going for: Worldly wealth is the money that passes our hands here on earth. "Being trustworthy" means we have two options: We can either spend it wisely, trying to make sure that every cent is used effectively, efficiently, and in a way that glorifies God whenever we can. Remember, we don't have to give a lot to be faithful - remember Jesus points out the woman that gives 2 cents and says to the disciples that she gave more (percentage) than the rich people that tossed in much larger sums. (Mark 12:41-44) Or, option 2 is to be foolhardy and waste it on whatever pleases us.
Why do people go to the casino? the dog track? play the lottery? For the hopes of spending a little, but getting a lot back. So here's where I think that Luke 16:13 comes in ("No servant can serve two masters... You cannot serve both God and Money." )So the goal is to try to "cheat the system" and get "easy money" And sure, it doesn't seem like much... a nickle slot here, a dollar blackjack game there, five bucks on horse number 3, but it adds up.
One of my family members went to Vegas for her honeymoon. She and her husband spent $8000 in gambling alone. They're not rich. They can't really afford it. But like any addiction... "just one more game won't hurt" until they were down 8 grand and finally realized that they were in trouble.
Casinos and other gambling establishments don't stay open because the average player wins. They stay open, and keep building bigger and better gambling halls because the average player LOSES and the casino turns a huge profit on us. They even turn a profit after comping rooms to the big rollers and paying ridiculous taxes.
Thomas Tusser once said, "A fool and his money are soon parted." While it's not from the Bible, it's still the perfect thought. And take that back to Luke 16:11)So if you have not been trustworthy in handling worldly wealth, who will trust you with true riches?) The true riches are referenced in Matthew 16:9("I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." One of the keys given to us is our money. Waste is here and you'll have less waiting for you in heaven. Use it for God's purposes, and you will be honored in heaven. Bethany Bible Church did a great message on this back in 2005. You can read the text here. It does not specifically mention gambling, but discusses the riches in heaven, and the condition of our hearts. I can't do it justice by trying to summarize it here.
Not really. It's a matter of where our heart is, rather than what's in our pocket. And that is the point I was trying to make. If you squander what you've been given, you won't have a large amount of money. If I told you that I started with ZERO money at the age of 18 (actually a little college debt) but that now I have a net worth of over $500,000 (at the age of 32) how did I get there?Odale said:
-Gambling/Lotto? Wait until I explain below for that one...
-Married into it? Nope, my wife started with a zero-balance, too.
-Insurance payout after an accident? I wish
-Inheritance? Nah, nobody in my family has money, either.
-Worked for it, spending wisely, being faithful to God by giving what is ask of me, etc? Yep.
Thanks, but all I do is read a bunch. Read moreOdale said:
Odale said:
Counting cards is cheating. It's a dishonest practice, nearly as dishonest as what the casinos do on the other side of the table.
Here's what I was going for: Worldly wealth is the money that passes our hands here on earth. "Being trustworthy" means we have two options: We can either spend it wisely, trying to make sure that every cent is used effectively, efficiently, and in a way that glorifies God whenever we can. Remember, we don't have to give a lot to be faithful - remember Jesus points out the woman that gives 2 cents and says to the disciples that she gave more (percentage) than the rich people that tossed in much larger sums. (Mark 12:41-44) Or, option 2 is to be foolhardy and waste it on whatever pleases us.
Why do people go to the casino? the dog track? play the lottery? For the hopes of spending a little, but getting a lot back. So here's where I think that Luke 16:13 comes in ("No servant can serve two masters... You cannot serve both God and Money." )So the goal is to try to "cheat the system" and get "easy money" And sure, it doesn't seem like much... a nickle slot here, a dollar blackjack game there, five bucks on horse number 3, but it adds up.
One of my family members went to Vegas for her honeymoon. She and her husband spent $8000 in gambling alone. They're not rich. They can't really afford it. But like any addiction... "just one more game won't hurt" until they were down 8 grand and finally realized that they were in trouble.
Casinos and other gambling establishments don't stay open because the average player wins. They stay open, and keep building bigger and better gambling halls because the average player LOSES and the casino turns a huge profit on us. They even turn a profit after comping rooms to the big rollers and paying ridiculous taxes.
Thomas Tusser once said, "A fool and his money are soon parted." While it's not from the Bible, it's still the perfect thought. And take that back to Luke 16:11)So if you have not been trustworthy in handling worldly wealth, who will trust you with true riches?) The true riches are referenced in Matthew 16:9("I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." One of the keys given to us is our money. Waste is here and you'll have less waiting for you in heaven. Use it for God's purposes, and you will be honored in heaven. Bethany Bible Church did a great message on this back in 2005. You can read the text here. It does not specifically mention gambling, but discusses the riches in heaven, and the condition of our hearts. I can't do it justice by trying to summarize it here.
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Abba San
Legacy of Elijah [LoE] - Proud Grandfather
I don't gamble - but it is not because you can find a passage of scripture that says, "Don't gamble." (Although I do agree with Durruck's explanation of the Luke passage.)
I don't drink - but it is not because you can find a passage of scripture that says, "Don't drink." (You can't - don't be a drunkard, yes - but not, don't drink.)
There are certain things I don't do because of the "Stumble Factor."
Anyone who loves another brother or sister is living in the light and does not cause others to stumble. 1 John 2:10 (NLT)
Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. Romans 14:20 (NIV)
Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God-- 1 Corinthians 10:32 (NIV)
I am always amazed when parents or grandparents are surprised that their child is caught up in a particular behavior when the child is only doing in excess what the parent does in moderation. They don't get it. They condoned it by their own behavior - they caused that child to stumble.
I'm not responsible for the stupid decisions others make. At the same time I do not want my freedom and liberties in Christ to cause others to stumble and fall prey to life destroying habits.
I don't drink - but it is not because you can find a passage of scripture that says, "Don't drink." (You can't - don't be a drunkard, yes - but not, don't drink.)
There are certain things I don't do because of the "Stumble Factor."
Anyone who loves another brother or sister is living in the light and does not cause others to stumble. 1 John 2:10 (NLT)
Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. Romans 14:20 (NIV)
Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God-- 1 Corinthians 10:32 (NIV)
I am always amazed when parents or grandparents are surprised that their child is caught up in a particular behavior when the child is only doing in excess what the parent does in moderation. They don't get it. They condoned it by their own behavior - they caused that child to stumble.
I'm not responsible for the stupid decisions others make. At the same time I do not want my freedom and liberties in Christ to cause others to stumble and fall prey to life destroying habits.
I agree, but where do we draw the lines. For example, what if someone else from my church believed it was wrong to eat meat, they then saw me doing my grocery shopping and I had some steaks in the carts, the think, wow, looks good, can't resist... Have I just caused them to stumble? Is this the 'don't cause your brother to stumble' thats being outlined. Does this mean that every extra-biblical standard that any christian adheres to I can't do in case I may incidentally run into them while doing it? No going to movies, dining or shopping at any facility serving alcohol, etc.... We couldn't do anything but lock ourselves in our houses. And then we'd violate going into all the world telling them about our faith! It's an impossible circumstance!
I think maybe a more applicable scenario would be, if I knew they didn't eat meat, don't invite them over to my house for diner and serve them steaks, as that would be me actually causing them to stumble. Anyone have any other thoughts on this?
I think maybe a more applicable scenario would be, if I knew they didn't eat meat, don't invite them over to my house for diner and serve them steaks, as that would be me actually causing them to stumble. Anyone have any other thoughts on this?
Avesther
New Member
Abba San, your position is very commendable but not very practical. By your very own logic, you should also not eat because people have eating disorders.
Lets start of by not confusing an activity with sin. I think at the very root this is an issue with understanding scripture. Drinking is not a sin. You may have sinful reasons for drinking, under the influence you may become easily coerced into sinful behavior. A sinful reason for drinking is drinking to fill yourself with something that should be coming from God. When drunk, peoples judgement becomes distorted and do somethings that sinful, like murder or marital unfaithfulness, the list goes on.
Abba San, you say you don't drink because of the stumble factor. Ok, fair enough. Alcoholics, who are by definition still brothers and sisters (let me digress a second and define a brother and sister: Anybody who shares the same father. We all share the same father, some simply haven't acknowledged God as the father), are stumbling all over the place...is your not enjoying a beer having any effect? Maybe, it is because I enjoy having a beer once in awhile that is causing them to stumble? People can enjoy alcohol without stumbling or causing others to stumble.
The answer to your dilemma is in the first scripture you quoted:
Anyone who loves another brother or sister is living in the light and does not cause others to stumble. 1 John 2:10 (NLT)
Let me add another scripture: Psalm 23:1-2
The Lord is my shepard I shall not be in want
He makes me lie down in green pastures,
He leads me beside quiet waters.
And the prayer...lead us not into temptation
If we are to be Christlike, and to be Christlike is to do as we saw Christ do which is; he only did what he saw his father do. And the Father leads us by quiet water and leads us not into temptation. We too, will not lead each other by troubling waters or into temptation. I will not lead my alcoholic brother or sister into temptation of doing sin by inviting them to a bar. But that does not mean that I can not enjoy a beer or go and by lotto tickets because it.
Remember, there is a second street to these passage: You are just looking at them from the point of view of you to the brother who might stumble. Look at the same passage from the point of view of the alcoholic because it applies to them as they deal with you. If they love you as commanded, then they know not to covet your ability to enjoy a beer without allowing it to control you as it does them.
Time is run out, I have to go.
Lets start of by not confusing an activity with sin. I think at the very root this is an issue with understanding scripture. Drinking is not a sin. You may have sinful reasons for drinking, under the influence you may become easily coerced into sinful behavior. A sinful reason for drinking is drinking to fill yourself with something that should be coming from God. When drunk, peoples judgement becomes distorted and do somethings that sinful, like murder or marital unfaithfulness, the list goes on.
Abba San, you say you don't drink because of the stumble factor. Ok, fair enough. Alcoholics, who are by definition still brothers and sisters (let me digress a second and define a brother and sister: Anybody who shares the same father. We all share the same father, some simply haven't acknowledged God as the father), are stumbling all over the place...is your not enjoying a beer having any effect? Maybe, it is because I enjoy having a beer once in awhile that is causing them to stumble? People can enjoy alcohol without stumbling or causing others to stumble.
The answer to your dilemma is in the first scripture you quoted:
Anyone who loves another brother or sister is living in the light and does not cause others to stumble. 1 John 2:10 (NLT)
Let me add another scripture: Psalm 23:1-2
The Lord is my shepard I shall not be in want
He makes me lie down in green pastures,
He leads me beside quiet waters.
And the prayer...lead us not into temptation
If we are to be Christlike, and to be Christlike is to do as we saw Christ do which is; he only did what he saw his father do. And the Father leads us by quiet water and leads us not into temptation. We too, will not lead each other by troubling waters or into temptation. I will not lead my alcoholic brother or sister into temptation of doing sin by inviting them to a bar. But that does not mean that I can not enjoy a beer or go and by lotto tickets because it.
Remember, there is a second street to these passage: You are just looking at them from the point of view of you to the brother who might stumble. Look at the same passage from the point of view of the alcoholic because it applies to them as they deal with you. If they love you as commanded, then they know not to covet your ability to enjoy a beer without allowing it to control you as it does them.
Time is run out, I have to go.
ewoksrule
Active Member
Heh I was thinking that exact same thing.
For me, the answer is deep community with fellow believers. In our Missional Community group, we are learning to stir each others affections for Christ. We have an environment where we can openly discuss moderation and liberty. Our church has many home-brewers in it and we all appreciate good beer and wine. We also have many excellent BBQ dinners. If one of our members is showing signs of gluttony or alcoholism it would certainly be brought up in a loving way from someone that is accountable to them.
In regards to gambling I don't know (We don't have casinos where I live) but I am sure if we did, the same thing would apply. We would discuss moderation, liberty, and good stewardship as the Bible instructs and then work with each other as we struggle.
Making a blanket "I won't eat as not to stumble" does not work for me personally. I think it is more like an easy way out and creating a "new law", then dealing with the person's heart. It is important to learn what Idols each other has and help them tear them down specifically.
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Avesther
New Member
Interesting program you speak of Ewoks. That would take a lot of trust and openness to participate in.
I was just thinking of what Paul said: Everything is permissible, not everything is beneficial and that he would be mastered by none of it. That is a very Christian way of looking at such questions as gambling.
Gambling:
Nothing in the bible against it. As a matter of fact you will find lots of gambling going on. Lots were thrown to divide the land amongst the tribes, lots were tossed to determine who would take Judas spot. Lots were tossed to determine the sacrificial goat and the scapegoat. Outside of the bible encouraging us to guard against the love of\for money and looking for rich quick, it speaks very directly to gambling: The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD. Proverbs 16:33. Nothing is random!
Is gambling a sin? No. Is it permissible? Yes. Is it beneficial? Not really, no more then spending money to go to the movie. Should you be mastered by it? No; but some are easily drawn into the wild promises of quick riches but as I said, the bible encourages to stay away from attempts to get rich quick (proverbs 13:11, 23:5, Ecclesiastes 5:10).
I was just thinking of what Paul said: Everything is permissible, not everything is beneficial and that he would be mastered by none of it. That is a very Christian way of looking at such questions as gambling.
Gambling:
Nothing in the bible against it. As a matter of fact you will find lots of gambling going on. Lots were thrown to divide the land amongst the tribes, lots were tossed to determine who would take Judas spot. Lots were tossed to determine the sacrificial goat and the scapegoat. Outside of the bible encouraging us to guard against the love of\for money and looking for rich quick, it speaks very directly to gambling: The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD. Proverbs 16:33. Nothing is random!
Is gambling a sin? No. Is it permissible? Yes. Is it beneficial? Not really, no more then spending money to go to the movie. Should you be mastered by it? No; but some are easily drawn into the wild promises of quick riches but as I said, the bible encourages to stay away from attempts to get rich quick (proverbs 13:11, 23:5, Ecclesiastes 5:10).
I don't think this has much effect on the root of the current topic, but I felt I had to inject something here:
1 John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
John 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. 42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. 43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. 44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Just to name a few!
Avesther
New Member
I'm sorry, I'm confused. Were you trying to confirm what I said or refute it?
Unless I'm misunderstanding what you're saying, I thought you were indicating that everyone is a child of God, saved and unsaved. I was just pointing out scriptures that refute that. If I am mistaken in what you were saying, then I appologize, but at least it was a good refresher on the scriptural basis of man's relationship with God
People only look at gambling from the viewpoint of themselves. Gambling is a lose lose proposition if you look at from both sides as either you lose or someone else loses to pay you and I don't like profiting from another's pain or possibly addiction. It's unlike competitive sports or business as there is no skill or earned victory nor are losers bettered for having competed. Anyway just my 2 cents. I don't know of any specific verse to gambling except those that warn against money/greed etc. 1 timothy 6:10 warns against the love of money which gambling can be.
[Gerbil's obvious statement] In a perfect world people would control themselves and gambling could exist as just something to do for a thrill but this is by far not a perfect world. As people abuse any freedom those freedoms either must become restricted or everyone else must suffer from abuses. It may not be fair but that's life. The difficulty is in deciding where the balance of allowing everyone to suffer or restricting their freedoms lies. Bankruptcy as a result of gambling happens and that has an economic effect. To compare to drinking how many people die in DWIs or how many other drunken crimes must be committed before one has no choice but to restrict it. Eating and guns are similar in some aspects but it's important to note they are different in a very important way drinking and gambling are entertainment and serve no use beyond that while you must eat to live and guns are a means of defense. I'm not saying any specific things should be more or less restricted only that, as Christians view men as flawed, leaving individuals to decide on their own is unfortunately impossible if you expect society to exist. [/obvious statement]
[Gerbil's obvious statement] In a perfect world people would control themselves and gambling could exist as just something to do for a thrill but this is by far not a perfect world. As people abuse any freedom those freedoms either must become restricted or everyone else must suffer from abuses. It may not be fair but that's life. The difficulty is in deciding where the balance of allowing everyone to suffer or restricting their freedoms lies. Bankruptcy as a result of gambling happens and that has an economic effect. To compare to drinking how many people die in DWIs or how many other drunken crimes must be committed before one has no choice but to restrict it. Eating and guns are similar in some aspects but it's important to note they are different in a very important way drinking and gambling are entertainment and serve no use beyond that while you must eat to live and guns are a means of defense. I'm not saying any specific things should be more or less restricted only that, as Christians view men as flawed, leaving individuals to decide on their own is unfortunately impossible if you expect society to exist. [/obvious statement]
Abba San
Legacy of Elijah [LoE] - Proud Grandfather
Thank you for your comments, Avesther and ewok. I would agree with your desire to avoid legalism or the nth degree of application. When you say, “by your very own logic, you should not eat because people have eating disorders,” that is actually your logic, not my logic. That is not what I said or think.
You misunderstand if you think this is a dilemma for me or that I would impose my behavior on others. I don’t take or make blanket “stumbling” positions and expect others to share those positions. Most of my lifestyle decisions, most people, in general, and many Christians, would not hold to. I could list them but they would probably annoy some people and seem unrealistic to others – but they have served me well.
It is interesting to me how my comments were taken. When I made them, I wasn’t thinking about the world at large or winning the lost or how the world ought to conduct itself – nothing so noble. I was thinking about me and my household.
With regard to alcohol, my father was a casual drinker (I don’t remember ever seeing him drunk). I was a casual drinker, but my youngest sister became an alcoholic and drug abuser – even spending time in prison for drunk driving. When I quit drinking it wasn’t because I finally “saw the light” about “demon rum,” nor was it out of an indignant anger at drunk drivers. I quit drinking when I had my first son. I did not want him to be exposed to even casual drinking – at least not in his own home. I didn’t want to risk being the cause of a failure in his life.
If someone else wants to drink – fine – that is their choice. I’m not calling it sin and I’m not thinking any less of them. I choose not to – that doesn’t make me legalistic nor is it impractical. It has worked for me for 31 years.
The same was true with smoking – I quit when my son came along. I didn’t want him exposed to it. I needed a bigger and better reason than simply my health to quit.
If someone else wants to smoke – fine – that is their choice. I don’t call it a sin, whereas much of Christendom does these days. I pastored in the south where people were teetotalers, but there were ashtrays all around the church – smoking was okay. I choose not to – that doesn’t make me legalistic nor is it impractical. It has worked for me for 34 years.
In our home there was a level of protection, but we didn’t protect our sons from the world. Both sons have been by my side through the years as we ministered to poor, homeless, prostitutes, abusers, the hurting and hurters, the beautiful and the ugly in life. As they became men they made their own choices about life. They have chosen very well.
It is nice to have discussions about moderation and liberty in a philosophical sense and in general terms – but at some point you have to decide for you and your household, what are you going to do and not do – where do you take a stand and where you do not.
That is enough for now – I’m enjoying this discussion. But do know – I abhor legalism and forcing your life-style decision on others – even in the name of God. That is pretty much what the Pharisees were doing and we know how far that got them.
And I'll close with your reference, Avesther - I think it might be the basis for many of my lifestyle decisions:
"Everything is permissible for me"--but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible for me"--but I will not be mastered by anything. 1 Corinthians 6:12 (NIV)
"Everything is permissible"--but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible"--but not everything is constructive. 1 Corinthians 10:23 (NIV)
You misunderstand if you think this is a dilemma for me or that I would impose my behavior on others. I don’t take or make blanket “stumbling” positions and expect others to share those positions. Most of my lifestyle decisions, most people, in general, and many Christians, would not hold to. I could list them but they would probably annoy some people and seem unrealistic to others – but they have served me well.
It is interesting to me how my comments were taken. When I made them, I wasn’t thinking about the world at large or winning the lost or how the world ought to conduct itself – nothing so noble. I was thinking about me and my household.
With regard to alcohol, my father was a casual drinker (I don’t remember ever seeing him drunk). I was a casual drinker, but my youngest sister became an alcoholic and drug abuser – even spending time in prison for drunk driving. When I quit drinking it wasn’t because I finally “saw the light” about “demon rum,” nor was it out of an indignant anger at drunk drivers. I quit drinking when I had my first son. I did not want him to be exposed to even casual drinking – at least not in his own home. I didn’t want to risk being the cause of a failure in his life.
If someone else wants to drink – fine – that is their choice. I’m not calling it sin and I’m not thinking any less of them. I choose not to – that doesn’t make me legalistic nor is it impractical. It has worked for me for 31 years.
The same was true with smoking – I quit when my son came along. I didn’t want him exposed to it. I needed a bigger and better reason than simply my health to quit.
If someone else wants to smoke – fine – that is their choice. I don’t call it a sin, whereas much of Christendom does these days. I pastored in the south where people were teetotalers, but there were ashtrays all around the church – smoking was okay. I choose not to – that doesn’t make me legalistic nor is it impractical. It has worked for me for 34 years.
In our home there was a level of protection, but we didn’t protect our sons from the world. Both sons have been by my side through the years as we ministered to poor, homeless, prostitutes, abusers, the hurting and hurters, the beautiful and the ugly in life. As they became men they made their own choices about life. They have chosen very well.
It is nice to have discussions about moderation and liberty in a philosophical sense and in general terms – but at some point you have to decide for you and your household, what are you going to do and not do – where do you take a stand and where you do not.
That is enough for now – I’m enjoying this discussion. But do know – I abhor legalism and forcing your life-style decision on others – even in the name of God. That is pretty much what the Pharisees were doing and we know how far that got them.
And I'll close with your reference, Avesther - I think it might be the basis for many of my lifestyle decisions:
"Everything is permissible for me"--but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible for me"--but I will not be mastered by anything. 1 Corinthians 6:12 (NIV)
"Everything is permissible"--but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible"--but not everything is constructive. 1 Corinthians 10:23 (NIV)
Avesther
New Member
Psalm 139 speaks to me of a fatherly creation of man. If God created everything, he is the father and author of everything. The atheist may to his dieing day never accept that God is the father that sent his son Jesus to be the sacrificial lamb for his sin and for that he will spend eternity separated from the father of creation. But that does not change that the atheist was created and loved by God, who so loved him that he sent his only son to die on a cross for his sins.
I read through your scriptures and I agree with every last one. How can you call God your father, yourself a Child of God, if you don't acknowledge God as your father? And even when Jesus confronts those who are about to have him executed his said that they did not know the father, for if they did, this would not be happening. He even goes a step further and says that they have replaced the father with a new one who is also called the father of lies and they are unawares of it. God is still their father, that didn't change, Jesus said they didn't know the father and that they replaced him and they follow a new father. God still created them and for them, even them, he sent his son to die on a cross for.
I read through your scriptures and I agree with every last one. How can you call God your father, yourself a Child of God, if you don't acknowledge God as your father? And even when Jesus confronts those who are about to have him executed his said that they did not know the father, for if they did, this would not be happening. He even goes a step further and says that they have replaced the father with a new one who is also called the father of lies and they are unawares of it. God is still their father, that didn't change, Jesus said they didn't know the father and that they replaced him and they follow a new father. God still created them and for them, even them, he sent his son to die on a cross for.
ewoksrule
Active Member
@Avesther
I never really thought of God as Father of creation and his creation as sons by default. I can see how that makes sense, but I am not sure its biblical. I have always thought of it as God adopting us as sons when He saves us. Just like we can only have one biological father, we only have one spiritual father. If you have not been saved and adopted into the family of God, then your spiritual father is actually Satan, not God.
I guess you could say we have a biological father, a spiritual father and an author father?
Anyways this is way off topic.
@Abba san
Thanks for your personal touch to the topic, helps to see where you are coming from. I agree that you do need to make stands and strong boundaries for your family. The topics discussed here are obviously "open hand" or "secondary" topics where the Spirit will lead each man to lead his own house accordingly.
@Gambling
One time I really needed to make a decision on if we should switch cell phone providers to save money in the long run but a big cost up front. I felt a strong desire to buy a lottery scratcher when pumping gas, and won $300 which was almost exactly the cost of the phones....interesting. Then recently I was again struggling with funds and felt led to buy a scratcher, I lost and it again helped with a decision. I am not sure there is a point there, but its kinda funny. Only 2 scratchers I have bought in many years, not sure I will do it again now that my 1 winning streak was broken.
I never really thought of God as Father of creation and his creation as sons by default. I can see how that makes sense, but I am not sure its biblical. I have always thought of it as God adopting us as sons when He saves us. Just like we can only have one biological father, we only have one spiritual father. If you have not been saved and adopted into the family of God, then your spiritual father is actually Satan, not God.
I guess you could say we have a biological father, a spiritual father and an author father?
Anyways this is way off topic.
@Abba san
Thanks for your personal touch to the topic, helps to see where you are coming from. I agree that you do need to make stands and strong boundaries for your family. The topics discussed here are obviously "open hand" or "secondary" topics where the Spirit will lead each man to lead his own house accordingly.
@Gambling
One time I really needed to make a decision on if we should switch cell phone providers to save money in the long run but a big cost up front. I felt a strong desire to buy a lottery scratcher when pumping gas, and won $300 which was almost exactly the cost of the phones....interesting. Then recently I was again struggling with funds and felt led to buy a scratcher, I lost and it again helped with a decision. I am not sure there is a point there, but its kinda funny. Only 2 scratchers I have bought in many years, not sure I will do it again now that my 1 winning streak was broken.
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Abba San
Legacy of Elijah [LoE] - Proud Grandfather
Absolutely.
Avesther
New Member
Ephesians 4:4-6
4There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called— 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
Emphasis added
If I'm taking that out of context, apparently, I take everything out of context, feel free to let me know.
If you haven't accepted Christ as your Lord and Savior, then you don't know your father because you can only know the Father through the Son. But does that change that the one God is the Father of all? I don't think so.
Jesus said we can not serve to masters. I assume master one is God, the true and only master, or you can replace master one with any one of your choosing serve it, like alcoholism or drugs or sex or lies or whatever your heart desired but all that doesn't change that God is the Father of all. I'm probably wrong, I usually am on these things.
I'm done with this topic. Have a good evening\morning all.
My prayer for you all is that God Blesses you with the wisdom in all things he has not blessed me with and more.
4There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called— 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
Emphasis added
If I'm taking that out of context, apparently, I take everything out of context, feel free to let me know.
If you haven't accepted Christ as your Lord and Savior, then you don't know your father because you can only know the Father through the Son. But does that change that the one God is the Father of all? I don't think so.
Jesus said we can not serve to masters. I assume master one is God, the true and only master, or you can replace master one with any one of your choosing serve it, like alcoholism or drugs or sex or lies or whatever your heart desired but all that doesn't change that God is the Father of all. I'm probably wrong, I usually am on these things.
I'm done with this topic. Have a good evening\morning all.
My prayer for you all is that God Blesses you with the wisdom in all things he has not blessed me with and more.
silverleaf
New Member
Nothing wrong with gambing, just don't bet more than what you are prepared to lose. I've never gambled in cash before, don't intend to (not one who takes risks) but I wouldn't gamble what I can't lose without batting an eye.
Big difference between what you can afford to lose, and what you couldn't care less about losing. For me, that bar is set at the value I place on the entertainment I get out of the game.
10 gold for a pvp match, ok. 100, no way. I could afford to lose 100, but I'd feel bad afterward if I lose. So no.
Big difference between what you can afford to lose, and what you couldn't care less about losing. For me, that bar is set at the value I place on the entertainment I get out of the game.
10 gold for a pvp match, ok. 100, no way. I could afford to lose 100, but I'd feel bad afterward if I lose. So no.
Lloren
Christian Gamers Alliance Forums Administrator
Great comments on here concerning moderation and not making a brother stumble.
In a way, I see all MMORPG or any "roll" playing as gambling. Every time something drops and you are hoping for that "shiny toy sword" made up of binary bits and bytes, some server somewhere is rolling the dice and if you are lucky you could win. If you pay money to do this.....
In a way, I see all MMORPG or any "roll" playing as gambling. Every time something drops and you are hoping for that "shiny toy sword" made up of binary bits and bytes, some server somewhere is rolling the dice and if you are lucky you could win. If you pay money to do this.....