Going back to college...

silverleaf

silverleaf

New Member
Moderator's note: This post and the two that follow were originally part of the Going back to college... thread in the Prayer Requests/Praise Reports Forum. I've moved it here because discussion/debate is not the purpose of the Prayer/Praise Forum.

It is no doubt a noble cause indeed, though I doubt the effectiveness of stuck up educational institutes, I understand it is the way forward for everyone at some point of life. Praying as regardless of who they are, you will need to get past them.

And yes I am suspecious of everyone lol but just a thought, whats so different between them bullying students and the pharisees of old? Depends on the institution of course, there are good people and there are bad and I would refrain from branding them all just because of a few personal stories I heard. However I've heard many pastor wannabes being outright overworked and put through hard assignments and stuff and having to be all 'goody two shoes' in front of their professors just like in a Law course, which is what I believe NOT a good, conducive, mutual equality, friendly, warm, cozy, sunday school like atmosphere (hey maybe I got a good sunday school though I still resent being forced to go, I should have had it explained to me rather than drag me kicking and screaming in but the staff did a good job and for that I am grateful) which I initially expected Bible College to be. Not in a pressured, university/collage environment meeting deadlines and the expectations of others.
Sorry if my comments are not welcome, but just had to think and I wish you all the best. My aim is definitely NOT to discourage you, as you were already there (inb4 haters gona hate). Just questioning authority.
 
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I'm afraid that I don't follow what you're saying. Of course, it could be because I've had basically 2 hours of sleep for the last 36 hours.

Assuming I'm at least following your basic thoughts, you're concerned about a Bible college being legalistic? Sure, they all are, to some extent. But I'm also aware of the general teachings of the particular denomination that runs the school... and I know what I'm getting in to. Most of the classes are geared to be non-denominational with a slight Calvinistic leaning... but if nothing else, they are in-depth classes that study various aspects of language, culture, history, authors, effective governments of the times, etc.

Context, context, context seems to be the most important thing about reading the Bible. If you look at salt as a flavor additive (as we use it) then you miss the whole point of Matthew 5:13, Mark 9:50, and Luke 14:34. If you don't know that Emperor Nero was burning Christians alive as garden torches, you miss the encouragement that Paul writes in Philippians 4:21.

Certainly, any education that furthers my Biblical understanding is not wasted. If there is a false teaching, I'm sure that God will protect me and lead me to recognize it.

Anyway, I'll re-read your post after I've slept and make sure it's just not my brain misreading what you're trying to say.
 
Thanks, yeah legalistic is one of the key problems... I'm sure that isn't what my pastor is implying when he said it was a difficult course (he was trying to recruit and get the needed donations and also reminiscing about his student days) but it sounds VERY much like the secular course that I'm doing now. Stress, deadlines, exams, more stress, professors who will jump down your throat if you don't finish stuff on time etc etc. So in essence it works like the Law course, just that you are learning the Bible. And I question if having their values forced on their students (their interpretation, methods etc) is all right... NOT LIKE PEOPLE LIKE YOU HAVE A CHOICE. In a degree orientated world like today you will need their degree for lots of stuff... so I really hope I'm mistaken.

TL;DR
My main concern is the METHOD of teaching (the stressful environment, running it like business/law/<insert secular course here> school) and I was hoping you could enlighten me on it since you've been through it before.

I hope it isn't half as bad as what they say.
 
Amen - inkelis. School is school - discipline and accountability are part of intense training of any kind.

Durruck - I think I posted on the other forum that it is a wonderful thing you and your wife are doing. God bless you both for doing it.

The fact is most people would never take on or complete an intense course of study in anything - including the Bible - unless they enroll in a some sort of formal education. Regular Bible study with friends is not the same as systematic training in the biblical disciplines.

It is not legalistic to demand discipline. Nor is it "jumping down your throat" to hold students accountable. I went through it in a quality, conservative, evangelical, biblical, seminary education. It was worth it. They couldn't teach me everything that 30 years of ministry has taught me - but those 30 years would not have taught me what the seminary did. In fact, I discovered I need the discipline and accountability. I now have a coach who demands both - and I pay for it.

My guess is, as hard as it may be at times, you will learn and grow and in the end praise God for helping you through. The trial will be well worth the reward - being better equipped to do the work God has for you both.
 
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I'm hoping that silverleaf missed the fact that I'm already a college grad... so is my wife. In fact, I've taught parts of a college technical course. I've worked one-on-one with students, and understand why the discipline is an important part of the course.

The other major point is that we're not doing it so that we can get a church job. We are doing it to deepen our understanding of God's word. The course that we're taking is a systematic deconstruction and analysis of the Bible. There's only so far and so deep that I can get with reading on my own, Spirit guiding. That's part of the reason we're called to fellowship. I'm already active with my small group, study with the other youth group leaders, and read various other author's stuff. But I'm still hungry - I want something deeper.

This course isn't about getting a job, it's about getting closer to God, becoming more acquainted with His commands, and following His will for my life more closely. The school is just a tool that will help me do that. I recognize it for what it is.
 
Durruck said:
There's only so far and so deep that I can get with reading on my own, Spirit guiding.
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Don't limit the Spirit. All those high-minded things they teach you in school eventually go back to men who had to think them through without the help of a professor.

I have mixed feelings about Bible college. I've known a fellow who thought he knew more (thus his opinion was worth far more) than the common Christian because he went to Bible college. He liked to belittle the knowledge of others who weren't enlightened like himself.

I'd much rather have a discussion with a humble "common" Christian than one who is inflated by having Bible knowledge. Knowledge puffs up. . .

If you can avoid that pitfall and the liberalism that seems to be sweeping many of the Bible colleges (at least in my area) then go for it.
 
I didn't intend to speak as if I am limiting the Spirit, but we are called to fellowship for a reason. The Spirit pushes us to a deeper relationship.

Patriot said:
All those high-minded things they teach you in school eventually go back to men who had to think them through without the help of a professor.
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Yes and no. If I don't understand the context in which a particular passage was written (again, my reference to salt, Paul encouraging the Christian's in Caesar Nero's house), then I will never fully understand the impact of what God was leading Paul to write.

I study out of 3 different Bibles. One's a general Study Bible, another is an Archeology Bible... but the side-notes and footnotes only give so much detail.

Patriot said:
He liked to belittle the knowledge of others who weren't enlightened like himself.
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I honestly hope that I never get to the point that I start acting like a jerk because of my studies. Yes, knowledge puffs up, and love builds up. (1 Cor 8:1) The third verse there is just as important, though: "3But the man who loves God is known by God." How do you show that you love God? Follow his commands. How do you know His commands? Read his book. Study it. Pray about it. Fellowship about it. Get together with people that know more about it than you do and learn more. Then go back and read it again, study it again, pray about it again.

There are quite a few of my secular beliefs that I had to give up when I started reading and studying the Bible. Some of them were reinforced. Through my studies and prayer, I hope that God will continue to refine and strengthen whichever beliefs, attitudes, and actions that need to be refined and strengthened, respectively.
 
Durruck said:
Yes and no. If I don't understand the context in which a particular passage was written (again, my reference to salt, Paul encouraging the Christian's in Caesar Nero's house), then I will never fully understand the impact of what God was leading Paul to write.

I study out of 3 different Bibles. One's a general Study Bible, another is an Archeology Bible... but the side-notes and footnotes only give so much detail.
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But that information is available without going to school. I'm not saying you shouldn't go to school, but that it is possible to get the same information without going.

Durruck said:
How do you show that you love God? Follow his commands. How do you know His commands? Read his book. Study it. Pray about it. Fellowship about it. Get together with people that know more about it than you do and learn more. Then go back and read it again, study it again, pray about it again.
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I don't need a doctorate in Biblical studies to know what God commands:

Matthew 22:37-40
Jesus said to him, “ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

The difficult part is putting that into practice. And I'm not sure that going to school would help me in that regard. School is not without its value, but I don't need it to live by God's word.

In my opinion, churches should promote discipleship more than Bible college. But that is just my opinion.
 
Patriot said:
But that information is available without going to school. I'm not saying you shouldn't go to school, but that it is possible to get the same information without going....
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You are right, but you really can't do anything with it if that's the way you've learned it.
 
Odale said:
You are right, but you really can't do anything with it if that's the way you've learned it.
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I'm not sure I understand. Regardless of how I obtained the knowledge, I can use it to deepen my faith as well as the faith of those around me. Unless you are talking about the practice of demanding that a pastor have some sort of Biblical degree before allowing them to preach?
 
Odale said:
You are right, but you really can't do anything with it if that's the way you've learned it.
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Actually, that's not true. Our old youth pastor never went to Bible college, but the church still recognized him as a pastor (it really is just a title that means teacher, anyway) I'm already a Sunday School teacher and a youth group co-leader (technically operate under the youth pastor, but I've been in charge of my half of the youth group since before he even was in our church)

Besides that, neither my wife nor I are going to get degrees to be pastors. She may feel the need to change jobs, but I know that I am right where God wants me to be. I can minister to a LOT of people in my current position. The one nice thing is that the degree will allow me to start a chaplaincy program in my city workplace. (I love snubbing my nose at the "separation of church and state" people *grin*)

I'm not folly and blind to the ways of colleges and how they push their agendas. I'm already a college grad and have taught at a college. I know what goes on. With God's help, I won't fall victim to the twisting that goes on.
 
I was once in a secular position of hiring people for entry level positions in mental health. One of the requirements was a college degree. The degree did not have to be in psychology or social work - any degree would suffice. The assumption was that the person would end up getting a masters in their chosen field.

The degree said more about the person than their knowledge base. Having the degree showed the person had learned to invest the time and energy to accomplish goals, exercise the discipline to produce a product by a specific deadline, had the ability to shuffle and adapt to a demanding schedule, dealt with stress and authority, and survived all that.

There are life lessons learned while completing a college regimen - not just book knowledge.
 
Sorry for the confusion and I don't mean to sound like I was belittling not going to school or seminary.

One of my best friends growing up was a pastor's kid. Through his family I learned that many churches require their pastors go through seminary at some point and/or have some form of formal education in religion in order to preach or disseminate the information in the Bible.
 
You are correct, Odale - most churches or denominations require formal education for ordination - not usually for licensing, but yes, for ordination.
 
Abba San said:
I was once in a secular position of hiring people for entry level positions in mental health. One of the requirements was a college degree. The degree did not have to be in psychology or social work - any degree would suffice. The assumption was that the person would end up getting a masters in their chosen field.

The degree said more about the person than their knowledge base. Having the degree showed the person had learned to invest the time and energy to accomplish goals, exercise the discipline to produce a product by a specific deadline, had the ability to shuffle and adapt to a demanding schedule, dealt with stress and authority, and survived all that.

There are life lessons learned while completing a college regimen - not just book knowledge.
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I fully understand this. However, a Bible degree of some sort is a different beast. I cannot take my Computer Science degree and go to a church requesting that I be ordained. Churches are looking for specific knowledge (much as many programming positions) obtained from that studying, not necessarily just the experience of gaining a degree.

Interestingly, my wife forwarded me an email today somewhat pertaining to this topic. I'm posting an excerpt of the Thesis that the article addressed. The full article can be found here.

Mark White said:
The Problem of Schools​

In this writer's opinion, the biggest problem is that we have people in positions of leadership that have not been trained in marriage and family (parenting). People who want to go into ministry usually go to a school or want to be trained for the ministry. They will go to a Bible College and then seminary to work within the church. This is what the schools are there for.

The mission statement of SCBC&S states that their purpose is to help, "assisting local churches to equip believers... to live and minister biblically, based on the inerrant Word of God. This equipping includes biblical knowledge, Christian character, and ministry skills...".21 Under the heading of objectives it says "to equip students for various kinds of service...". 22 At another seminary their mission statement includes: "equipping godly men to be pastors and/or trainers of pastors for excellence in service to Christ in strategic fields of Christian ministry". 23

After looking at different Bible colleges and seminaries they all have a vision statement that says that they prepare men and or women for the ministry that God has called them to. It all has to do with service to the Lord, and usually within the local church. Men and or women are leaving with a college degree, and with that degree it is believed or assumed that they are prepared for ministry. Now after researching different Bible Colleges and Seminars I have found something very interesting. When it comes to the training of a leader to deal with his or her own family it is treated as an elective. It is not a mandatory course. You might have crisis counseling which is trying to pick up the pieces of a person's life and give direction. But as noted above the prerequisite for ministry is to have a qualified family relationship.

Are we just assuming most who are coming to these schools already know how to tend to their priorities (family) correctly? 98% say they did not have a good godly example. I have no doubt that there are many people in Christian schools going for a degree right now that are not even qualified because of their ignorance to the tending to their own family correctly. Why are Seminaries or Bible Colleges not investigating and prioritizing this non-negotiable and consequential principle of tending to our own families correctly if you want to fulfill God's will in ministry? I have found only one seminary that asks specific questions on their application that has to do with the family. The Master's Seminary not only asks the applicant but also wants the wife to fill one out. Their Master of Divinity program has a mandatory class about the pastor and his wife and they both are to attend. The a study of biblical teaching regarding marriage and family relationships. Evaluates roles, marital relationships, parenting skills, the relationship between the home and the church, the home as an educational agency, and the special problems faced by pastors and their families.24

Without the Biblical understanding of the family it will have a direct influence on the pastor's family and the church family. Plus the connection of the importance won't be there because it wasn't expressed in their training. Lets face it a leader has trained for years to know the languages, theology and such but when it comes to the language of the home and a working theology of what God says about the home he or she (she meaning deaconess) is at a loss.
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I added the paragraph breaks to make it easier on the eyes.
 
I agree with you, Patriot.

A church should never (and seldom do they) look at a person's degree and assume they are ready to serve that church. There is so much more than the book knowledge and the degree. The degree ONLY says they have been exposed to the material and they did the required work. That is a beginning point.

The candidating process that a pastor goes through has little to do with his/her degree and theology - it is more to do with history, character and how they present and handle themselves. It is an attempt to get a feel for the whole person and whether there is a 'fit' or not.

I've known people who went through Bible college and seminary who did not have the character and/or the people skills to be a pastor - no matter how many degrees they might hold. So...I'm not sure a Bible degree is that different from a secular degree. It is just a starting point for being equipped for ministry. It is not a guarantee.

I thought that was an interesting excerpt you included. I don't know how many seminaries he looked at when he said, "I have found only one seminary that asks specific questions on their application that has to do with the family." When I was looking at seminaries in 1980 every single one had a huge section on my personal life and family life. That would be about twelve that I considered. The top five all had mandatory courses on family and the one I chose offered a series of courses for spouses, as well. I don't think the Master's Seminary is unique in that way.

He titled the article - The Problem with Schools. What he describes is the problem with all schools - religious and secular. Schools are institutions - they are designed to provide an intense experience of passing on knowledge. Schools, by design, cannot and do not equip a person for life. Life equips us for life. You can do all the book learning in the world and still not be fully equipped for life. Schools don't take raw materials and punch out a perfected product. They teach a particular set of knowledge.

Whoa - I'm getting on a soapbox there - sorry.

To summarize - schools - even Christian schools are not the end all and be all in life education - just a beginning point.
 
My Associate Pastor just was ordained last fall after faithfully serving for 10 yrs. He did indeed go to college within that time. But, only after his true faithfulness in his family life and in the church shown as bight as they do and as true as they do was he ordained into the Office of the Pastor. A trying through the fire as it were to prove him approved to serve as an ordained Minister, one step at a time.

Him and his wife are wonderful role models. And it makes us feel that we can trust our leadership to be committed since they didn't rush rush rush just because of a degree gotten without a long term proof of their character to back it up.
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That is the way it is supposed to work - that is great - and a blessing to your church and God's kingdom. Thanks for sharing that, Kyrel.
 
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