vibrokatana
New Member
Jesus could become a zombie if he wanted to, that is how awesome he is.
Heaven the Game thought?
- Thread starter macromaster
- Start date
Jesus could become a zombie if he wanted to, that is how awesome he is.
macromaster
New Member
You got a point... That might be interesting...
Dark Virtue
New Member
This is exactly what brought me to this website in the first place.
Doom III has NOTHING to do with the Bible or Christians. A demon is defined as, "monster: a cruel wicked and inhuman person". Nothing pertaining to Christianity or the Bible...especially since most religions have their own versions of demons.
"Slaying demons for Jesus"? I don't remember this in the game, AT ALL. If I missed something, please let me know.
If you were going to slay demons for Jesus, do you really think he'd toss you a BFG?
Back on topic...can anyone point me to bible verses that actually define/detail what heaven is? I'm not talking about "shamayim" heaven, but that place that all Christians aspire to.
ppar3566
New Member
I suspect he was joking.
Edit; By he I meant TJ
Edit; By he I meant TJ
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macromaster
New Member
If Jesus was going to give you a tool to slay demons, I suspect that He would give you divine power, or something of that sort. I doubt He'd give you something horribly destructive.
Neirai the Forgiven
Christian Guilds List Manager
Doom, Demons, and Heaven
It's not my intention that this post be read as antagonistic towards anyone (especially not Dark Virtue and TJguitarz, both of whom I believe to be essential members of this forum. That being said, my comments below are fairly strong comments and will come across as such.
@ DV (and as collateral, everyone else) :
Funny, the definition of demon found on dictionary.com seems to be much more like follows:
Webster's Dictionary puts it this way:
I find it kind of amusing that you chose the one definition of "demon" that is purely naturalistic and sounds most like a simple human being. And, I should add, that is very removed from the definition found in Doom III. The definition of demon as a spiritual being of evil or a force of distress and harm is a very old and widespread tradition, not only amongst Christians -- although I know with the many cultural definitions come unique differences.
Now, as to demons in Doom III and whether you kill them "for Jesus." I haven't played Doom III, so I have to rely on my knowledge of Doom I and Doom II and the wikipedia synopsis. However, at the beginning I'd like to put out a definition of demons that I believe lines up with the Bible: Demons are spiritual beings or forces that are out of line with or opposed to the will of God.
Does this describe the demons in Doom III? I'm not sure. I will point out, however, that if chainsaws, grenade launchers, and everyone's favorite Big F Gun are effective ways of defeating them, that sounds to me that they're much more physical than spiritual. Also, they seem to run Hell, something that doesn't occur in the Bible (the "Lake of Fire" that inspires our concept of Hell is a final destination/punishment for demons, not their home base.) So, it seems to me that, like in Hellgate:London or World of Warcraft, these "demons" are functionally/structurally polemically evil aliens or monsters.
Jesus is not mentioned in wikipedia's synopsis of Doom III. So it's pretty hard to say that you're killing said polemically evil aliens or monsters for him.
Would Jesus toss you a BFG to help you kill demons? No. He'd deal with them himself. He's not a pansy that needs us to deal with demons because he can't. When the disciples in the Bible cast out demons, they do it in his name (aka, he does it for them.) When demons in the bible run into him, they're scared out of their... minds? whatevers. In the end, the Bible shows that Jesus triumphs over demons. He doesn't need guns to do it. Not to mention that seeing as demons are spiritual beings, the BFG wouldn't make a difference, unless you're arguing that BFG stands for "Big Faith Gun" --- and then I'd be arguing that it's a corny idea based on very very bad theology.
As to Heaven being mentioned or detailed in the Bible: yes, yes it is... but not to the extent of "Heaven the Game." It's mentioned by Paul in 2 Cor 12:2. It's talked about and even described in the Revelation, but so is the New Jerusalem (in much more detail.)
That being said, many Christians love to expound on and extend what's in scripture. Is this bad? Maybe not, but it's not quite the same thing.
The Heaven that Christians aspire to is alluded to here: John 14:2-3, where Jesus says that he is going back to the domain of his father (God) to prepare a place for his followers. We define Heaven as that domain.
References to heaven exist all over the Bible: the book of Job, the story of Elijah, Paul's letters, the letter to the Hebrews, and of course the Psalms and the references to the beliefs of the Israelites and even beforehand that God was the "maker of Heaven and Earth."
It's not my intention that this post be read as antagonistic towards anyone (especially not Dark Virtue and TJguitarz, both of whom I believe to be essential members of this forum. That being said, my comments below are fairly strong comments and will come across as such.
@ DV (and as collateral, everyone else) :
Funny, the definition of demon found on dictionary.com seems to be much more like follows:
Webster's Dictionary puts it this way:
I find it kind of amusing that you chose the one definition of "demon" that is purely naturalistic and sounds most like a simple human being. And, I should add, that is very removed from the definition found in Doom III. The definition of demon as a spiritual being of evil or a force of distress and harm is a very old and widespread tradition, not only amongst Christians -- although I know with the many cultural definitions come unique differences.
Now, as to demons in Doom III and whether you kill them "for Jesus." I haven't played Doom III, so I have to rely on my knowledge of Doom I and Doom II and the wikipedia synopsis. However, at the beginning I'd like to put out a definition of demons that I believe lines up with the Bible: Demons are spiritual beings or forces that are out of line with or opposed to the will of God.
Does this describe the demons in Doom III? I'm not sure. I will point out, however, that if chainsaws, grenade launchers, and everyone's favorite Big F Gun are effective ways of defeating them, that sounds to me that they're much more physical than spiritual. Also, they seem to run Hell, something that doesn't occur in the Bible (the "Lake of Fire" that inspires our concept of Hell is a final destination/punishment for demons, not their home base.) So, it seems to me that, like in Hellgate:London or World of Warcraft, these "demons" are functionally/structurally polemically evil aliens or monsters.
Jesus is not mentioned in wikipedia's synopsis of Doom III. So it's pretty hard to say that you're killing said polemically evil aliens or monsters for him.
Would Jesus toss you a BFG to help you kill demons? No. He'd deal with them himself. He's not a pansy that needs us to deal with demons because he can't. When the disciples in the Bible cast out demons, they do it in his name (aka, he does it for them.) When demons in the bible run into him, they're scared out of their... minds? whatevers. In the end, the Bible shows that Jesus triumphs over demons. He doesn't need guns to do it. Not to mention that seeing as demons are spiritual beings, the BFG wouldn't make a difference, unless you're arguing that BFG stands for "Big Faith Gun" --- and then I'd be arguing that it's a corny idea based on very very bad theology.
As to Heaven being mentioned or detailed in the Bible: yes, yes it is... but not to the extent of "Heaven the Game." It's mentioned by Paul in 2 Cor 12:2. It's talked about and even described in the Revelation, but so is the New Jerusalem (in much more detail.)
That being said, many Christians love to expound on and extend what's in scripture. Is this bad? Maybe not, but it's not quite the same thing.
The Heaven that Christians aspire to is alluded to here: John 14:2-3, where Jesus says that he is going back to the domain of his father (God) to prepare a place for his followers. We define Heaven as that domain.
References to heaven exist all over the Bible: the book of Job, the story of Elijah, Paul's letters, the letter to the Hebrews, and of course the Psalms and the references to the beliefs of the Israelites and even beforehand that God was the "maker of Heaven and Earth."
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ppar3566
New Member
Again I will say that I am sure the idea that Doom 3 was a christian game was meant as nothing more than a joke.
But onto other things. DV if you want some solid info of both biblical and early christian views of heaven and hell see http://www.fm1032.com.au/Mp3.asp?ChannelID=9&year=2006&page_no=5 and download the podcasts titled "things to come" (you can click on the other stuff but it doesn't mention heaven). John Dickson who gives the talks is a pastor but also a researcher in one of the worlds leading ancient history departments.
BTW it says in the above post that demon is Australian slang for a policeman. I have never ever heard it used as a slang word here. How weird. I suspect that if I called a copper a demon I would get little more than a trip to a nicely padded cell rather than any recognition that I was meaning it as a slang word.
But onto other things. DV if you want some solid info of both biblical and early christian views of heaven and hell see http://www.fm1032.com.au/Mp3.asp?ChannelID=9&year=2006&page_no=5 and download the podcasts titled "things to come" (you can click on the other stuff but it doesn't mention heaven). John Dickson who gives the talks is a pastor but also a researcher in one of the worlds leading ancient history departments.
BTW it says in the above post that demon is Australian slang for a policeman. I have never ever heard it used as a slang word here. How weird. I suspect that if I called a copper a demon I would get little more than a trip to a nicely padded cell rather than any recognition that I was meaning it as a slang word.
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macromaster
New Member
Excellent post!
ppar3566
New Member
Why thankyou... I am pretty sure you were refering to the post above mine, but I like to take credit for anything when ever i can.
Neirai the Forgiven
Christian Guilds List Manager
I just copied and pasted... I definitely don't mean to imply that Doom III is a subtle version of GTA aimed at Aussies.
Dark Virtue
New Member
First...I AM a simple human being, thank you for noticing
Second, you missed my entire point, but thankfully, you have underscored it in your post. I'll simplify...the definition of demon, especially its use in Doom 3, does not place it solely in the Christian sphere. I'm not sure how you can talk about its definition in the game if you haven't even played it.
Funny, NOWHERE in the definitions that you, yourself, posted did the term GOD or CHRISTIAN appear. Go back and look at your post.
Say what? "Effective ways of defeating them"? I don't remember Jesus having to use a BFG in the Bible. In Mark chapter 5, did Jesus kill the man that Legion inhabited? No, he cast the demons into a herd of pig and drove them into a lake or sea, thus SAVING THE MAN.
But it's easy to say that you're NOT.
Like I said, if you were killing demons for Jesus, or in the name of Jesus, I doubt, very much, you'd need a physical weapon of any kind.
John 14:2-3 doesn't offer any description though...I'm looking for specific details, not allegory. 2 Cor 12:2 reads, "I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
such an one caught up to the third heaven." What does this have to do wtih describing Heaven?I didn't ask for references to heaven, I ask for, and I quote, "can anyone point me to bible verses that actually define/detail what heaven is?"
DEFINE & DETAIL are the key words here.
Dark Virtue
New Member
In this post, maybe, but that remains to be seen. Again, it was a post on Doom 3 alleging that it was, definitely, a game with Christian themes that brought me here years ago. Not sure if I can dig up that article. I'll try.
EDIT: Found it, it was on CCGR: http://www.ccgr.org/reviews-mainmenu-31/13-computer/4401-d
UGH, don't make me sit through podcasts!
If it's so simple, please send me some bible verses that explain heaven in some manner of detail, thanks.
Gotta love regional slang!
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ppar3566
New Member
It is not simple and giving a single verse devoid of context or a detailed explination of the historical and political context at time of writing would help very little. I mean I could give you a bunch of stuff from revalations but it would not help much. Revelations is written in a literary style that we do not have today and was written under an occupying force that did not take kindly to the idea that their kingdom would not last forever (i.e. The Romans). Hence even with a detailed historical and political background it is hard to understand. Some what the same goes for other mentions of heaven, though they are a slight bit easier to understand.
Giving a brief example. In revelations it uses the metaphore that the gates of heaven are made of pearls to explain how heaven is so great that even the things we think are excellent here are commonin heaven . This appears to be a metaphore that really only makes much sense when you understand that pearl was worth a great deal more and was much rarer back then as it is now. In other words, I read gates are made of pearl and go OK I suppose that would be nice. But to a first centry christian that would be like WOW pearl is one of the most valuable sustances on earth and it is considered of such abundance in heaven that it is used to make the front door.
I would say that if you were really interested in wanting some info on heaven and hell from a academic perspective then those podcasts would be your best bet.
Giving a brief example. In revelations it uses the metaphore that the gates of heaven are made of pearls to explain how heaven is so great that even the things we think are excellent here are commonin heaven . This appears to be a metaphore that really only makes much sense when you understand that pearl was worth a great deal more and was much rarer back then as it is now. In other words, I read gates are made of pearl and go OK I suppose that would be nice. But to a first centry christian that would be like WOW pearl is one of the most valuable sustances on earth and it is considered of such abundance in heaven that it is used to make the front door.
I would say that if you were really interested in wanting some info on heaven and hell from a academic perspective then those podcasts would be your best bet.
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Neirai the Forgiven
Christian Guilds List Manager
DV: I sincerely apologize because the main thrust of my above post came across wrong, and as much more antagonistic than I intended. I am truly sorry.
One thing I should have done was simplified it and made it clear where I switched from calling your bluff on definitions (first point) to agreeing with you (later paragraphs.) Please let me fix that in this post:
The purpose for my first point was to argue that the defining of "demon" as simply an evil human being is not really valid seeing as many, many, cultures and peoples have seen demons as being inhuman.
My second point actually agreed with you: The demons in Doom III are not the demons in the Bible.
Demons in the Bible are spirits.
Demons in Doom III are acted upon by physical means.
Demons in the Bible are opposing God.
Demons in Doom III don't seem to care about God, from what I can figure out.
therefore, Demons in Doom III != Demons in the Bible
Furthermore, Doom III does not seem to allude to Jesus Christ at all.
Therefore, Doom III does not constitute fighting for Jesus Christ.
Concluding: Sorry, TJ, but I have to say that your contention that "Doom III is a Christian game because you fight Demons for Jesus Christ" is an invalid argument because the Demons aren't the Demons you're thinking about and Jesus Christ isn't present.
That is not to say that Doom III is not a Christian game, but you're going to have to come up with better reasons that it is before you're going to convince me (or DV, by the looks of it.)
Dark Virtue: I'm working on a solution to the problem of detailed descriptions of Heaven. I will get back to it once I do some research.
One thing I should have done was simplified it and made it clear where I switched from calling your bluff on definitions (first point) to agreeing with you (later paragraphs.) Please let me fix that in this post:
The purpose for my first point was to argue that the defining of "demon" as simply an evil human being is not really valid seeing as many, many, cultures and peoples have seen demons as being inhuman.
My second point actually agreed with you: The demons in Doom III are not the demons in the Bible.
Demons in the Bible are spirits.
Demons in Doom III are acted upon by physical means.
Demons in the Bible are opposing God.
Demons in Doom III don't seem to care about God, from what I can figure out.
therefore, Demons in Doom III != Demons in the Bible
Furthermore, Doom III does not seem to allude to Jesus Christ at all.
Therefore, Doom III does not constitute fighting for Jesus Christ.
Concluding: Sorry, TJ, but I have to say that your contention that "Doom III is a Christian game because you fight Demons for Jesus Christ" is an invalid argument because the Demons aren't the Demons you're thinking about and Jesus Christ isn't present.
That is not to say that Doom III is not a Christian game, but you're going to have to come up with better reasons that it is before you're going to convince me (or DV, by the looks of it.)
Dark Virtue: I'm working on a solution to the problem of detailed descriptions of Heaven. I will get back to it once I do some research.
macromaster
New Member
Doom 3 was created for the purpose of killing things, plain and simple. Like I said, the stories of David before he became King would work best. Or perhaps the stories of Moses when they had the Ark with them.
xavier55
New Member
when dows this game comes out and will they be fighting in heaven or in earth? thanks for that share i would like to see that on the 360
Dark Virtue
New Member
No problem, I didn't take it that way
Thank you!
You, just thought of something. It's amazing how Christians can attack something one day and then embrace it the next. Doom III is an excellent example...when it first came out many, many reviews called it satanic, etc, urging Christians to stay away from it...but now you have people like TJ that embrace it. Harry Potter is another good example...Christians had a field day with it when it first became popular, and today you can find tracts on how to use it as a tool for conversion. It blows my mind. I'd have much more respect for Christianity in general if they would just stick to their guns instead of turning to hypocrisy when the going gets tough. But, then again, I'm sure that's the same argument that Christians have themselves. Stick to your guns people!
I am very interested in what you will uncover. Although, I must admit, I already know the answer
macromaster
New Member
Doom 3 is not satanic, it's just an updated version of the original Doom games for PC. Doom is a science fiction first person shooter about killing evil things. It's pretty much like half-life, an experiment goes wrong and then the hero has to fix the mistakes (again...). I kind of like how Doom the movie's plot went, that's basically what Doom 3 is.
Neirai the Forgiven
Christian Guilds List Manager
Doom the movie had a plot?
ppar3566
New Member
I find two things wrong with this:
1. There is something like 2 billion christians in the world. It is not like we have an international convention every time a game or book comes out to decide what position to take on it. Unfortunately, there is as many uninformed prejudging nitwits in christian circles as there are in any other circle. And just like every other cirlce those nitwits tend to be the first to vocally and loudly voice there opinion. Like most other groups it often takes longer for more measured christians to respond. Christians vary in opinions, it happens.
2. You leave no room for people to change there mind. I hated the first few chapters of wheel of Time and now I can't put it down. Does that make me a hypocrite. People learn people change that is not hypocrisy it just life.
3. I think it is easy to say that Christians change there mind to more mainstream view because it is easy. I would suggest that nothing is further from the thruth. When I first started University I thought evolution was evil. Then I read up on it and learned and changed my mind. Did it make it easier in non-christian circles to believe in evolution, well yes frankly. But I don't spend most of my time in non-christian circles, those closest to me, friends and family, are christians and my beliefs abot evolution frankly make my life that much harder. I love Harry Potter, yet I had to sit through a video at church that said it was evil. I like Harry Potter and Doom that won't change but to say I do it out of hypocrisy and because it is easy is put simple hugely misinformed.
4. It is not about standing up for something and never changing simple in order not to be a hypocrite. The idea of being a christian for me is constantly seeking truth. This will mean my views will change call me a hypocrite if you want but I would rather be on and be on my way to learning the thruth then stick with a position simple because it was my initial one.
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