How can an omnibenevolent God allow this to happen?

The main assumption you're making is that death is a bad thing. Ever think that maybe their lives would have been miserable if they hadn't been killed? A quick death and then instant transport into an eternity of bliss, versus a sad drawn-out life of pain and suffering. Heck, it doesn't sound all that bad to me.

The real problem posed is for those left behind.
 
Well one question that needs to be answered here is that of to what degree does God influence our lives? Does he actively do things like jam peoples' guns? Should he? Is he present in our lives at every moment, or does he merely watch us and sees what happens?
 
God allows alot, that no one will ever understand. I question Why God allowed tohappen this in Wisconsin, and Ashly Smith is allowed to lived? I am Glad she is ok,and thank Lord jesus Christ for it.But why did God intervine in one but not the other. Gods way are his own and His plans are his to make.

I can not answer why. But God can. One incident makes you question God, the other bonds in his benevolance.

But it does come down to the same thing, will these incidents move you and others closer or farther away fromthe Lord Jesus Christ. but the battle still remains spiritual. Yours and alot of others souls are being challenged and seasoned through this.

I pray for you and the victems
 
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God has given the Devil some dominion over this word. In that little time that the Devil has left he is going to do everything he can to destroy it. God may not use the murders to uplift the familily but He will use it to uplift someone else I just don't know how.
 
[toj.cc]phantom said:
God has given the Devil some dominion over this word. In that little time that the Devil has left he is going to do everything he can to destroy it. God may not use the murders to uplift the familily but He will use it to uplift someone else I just don't know how.
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Now see, that's where it gets tricky. What's the difference between the devil commiting evil acts and God allowing the devil to commit them, with full knowledge that he will? It's the same thing as an angel coming down to earth to do some goodly deed, is it not? And angelic actions are attributed to God, so...
 
MontrezAnthony said:
God allows alot, that no one will ever understand. I question Why God allowed tohappen this in Wisconsin, and Ashly Smith is allowed to lived? I am Glad she is ok,and thank Lord jesus Christ for it.But why did God intervine in one but not the other. Gods way are his own and His plans are his to make.

I can not answer why. But God can. One incident makes you question God, the other bonds in his benevolance.

But it does come down to the same thing, will these incidents move you and others closer or farther away fromthe Lord Jesus Christ. but the battle still remains spiritual. Yours and alot of others souls are being challenged and seasoned through this.

I pray for you and the victems
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Well one answer is that he didn't intervene at all: It just happened. That could be another explanation to the enigma of when and where and why Godly intervention takes place. Have you considered that it doesn't?
 
MaxX said:
The main assumption you're making is that death is a bad thing. Ever think that maybe their lives would have been miserable if they hadn't been killed? A quick death and then instant transport into an eternity of bliss, versus a sad drawn-out life of pain and suffering. Heck, it doesn't sound all that bad to me.

The real problem posed is for those left behind.
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Are you serious?

How do you know your life won't be miserable starting next week? Are you going to go out and kill yourself to spare yourself the POSSIBILITY of a horrid existence? If this life is so meaningless, why do Christians live it to the fullest? Why not actually follow Christ's instructions and give everything away? Why not give it all up for this existence you believe you will find when you die? I wouldn't mind some biblical scriptures that show this instant bliss that greets you when you die.

I think YOU are under the assumption that their deaths were quick and painless. How do you know they didn't suffer? And what about their family members that held them while they bled to death, crying out desperately to their God, what about their pain? How many years will they continue to suffer? Do you think they were smiling and thankful that God called their loved ones while they cradled their blood soaked bodies?

Give me a frickin' break.
 
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MontrezAnthony said:
But it does come down to the same thing, will these incidents move you and others closer or farther away fromthe Lord Jesus Christ.
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Please explain to me how this incident could make ANYONE, believer or not, draw closer to God.
 
[toj.cc]phantom said:
God has given the Devil some dominion over this word. In that little time that the Devil has left he is going to do everything he can to destroy it. God may not use the murders to uplift the familily but He will use it to uplift someone else I just don't know how.
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The Devil doesn't have complete dominion over the world, just as you said.

Nothing was stopping God from intervening but GOD.

God could have prevented it, but He didn't. Again, let's not get into Necessary Evil. We're talking about God turning His back on His followers WHILE THEY WERE WORSHIPPING HIM. Doesn't that count for something, ANYTHING?

Obviously, no, it doesn't.

Please, PLEASE, draft one scenario in which someone is uplifted by this event.
 
These same people that you are now mourning for, would have stood with us, and you against them, before their death. By your own choosing and admission, you broke away from a fellowship of like believers.

We can sit and argue for God, and will, until eternity comes! You have no right to say anything against Him, you do not know Him. All you know of Him are the things that unbelievers and atheists know. I am not saying this is deliberate on your part. However, a quick Google search will find the believers that you choose to side with. You do not know Him for you do not choose to know Him. If you spent 1/4 of the time that you spend speaking against God, in the Bible, begging Him as you read to help your unbelief, I have not doubt that you would find Him.

For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. I Corinthians 14:33

God is not the author of confusion, but we know who is! You spend copious amounts of time arguing against the One in Whom you choose not to believe in. How can you argue against Someone so vehemently that you don't think is exists?

You have vast storehouses of knowledge, links, and resources of those who refuse to believe. You can shake your fist at God until the day you die, but you must come to Him on His terms. He is a Rock, I am thankful that you will not sway Him.

The Bible says that open rebuke is better than secret love. We care for your soul. The ones who died, DV, would be telling you the same things that we are. You ask questions that cannot be answered. It is about faith, trust, hope, in the Saviour Who was crucified for your sins. He already bore them, every last one, you decide if you want to mock and scourge Him as they did when they Crucified Him, or you decide you will accept the gift that He has already paid in full, by His blood. Spit on Him by denying Him if you want, your sins were nailed to His Cross and washed in His Blood, no matter.

How does anyone, who has taken the love and time here, to answer Spiritual things as best they can, know? The same as you can know, by taking heed to His Word... by humbly bowing before Him and telling Him, just as we do, we do not understand it all, nevertheless, we choose to trust in Him. He is not a god-in-the-box that can be explained or reasoned away, He is, I AM, The Creator of all things.

I do not mean to make you angry, but you may as well come along and join me, as you infuriate me by speaking against our Heavenly Father, and question the honesty and intigrity of belief, ridicule, and speak against my brothers and sisters in Christ.
 
DV is just being blunt about a logical conclusion that he has arrived upon, and is merely asking for an explanation that you all can offer. You say that there are things that just cannot be explained, as God's wisdom is far superior to our own, but that doesn't mean that we should seek an explanation. God gave us highly logical minds--they came along with our free will, no? DV and I are merely excersizing it.

DV is just desperately trying to understand your point of view. I am as well. You say we cannot understand because we do not 'know' him, but I don't want to accept that Marcy. That's the easy way out of this.

I'm sorry if you are angered by the harsh words, but the concepts would still be same even if spoken in a more mild tone.

It's frustrating, but don't give into it!
 
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While I am saddened by the event, there is good coming from it. I see both Mr. Bill and DV questioning God and trying to understand more. DV, it seems like this tragic event brought you back here.

It is very hard to look at the trying times in life and know that God will work towards the good for those who love Him. It is also not the logic that is necessary hard to figure out, but the emotions of the event.

Gen
 
If you want to drop the gloves, then consider them off.

Marcylene said:
These same people that you are now mourning for, would have stood with us, and you against them, before their death. By your own choosing and admission, you broke away from a fellowship of like believers.
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A bit of clarification. I did not say that I was a member of this church. This church was a splinter group of one that I used to attend.

We can sit and argue for God, and will, until eternity comes! You have no right to say anything against Him, you do not know Him. All you know of Him are the things that unbelievers and atheists know. I am not saying this is deliberate on your part. However, a quick Google search will find the believers that you choose to side with. You do not know Him for you do not choose to know Him. If you spent 1/4 of the time that you spend speaking against God, in the Bible, begging Him as you read to help your unbelief, I have not doubt that you would find Him.
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This is an incorrect statement on your part. I spent the better part of half my life devoted to a being that I had no evidence to believe in. I know more than you do Marcy and that's the simple truth. I have been on your side of the fence, I have been a fervent believer. I know it and understand it. I, unlike you, know and understand the other side as well. This is a coin with two sides. At this point in my life I can say that I have devoted just as much time and effort into studying BOTH sides. Can you say the same? I begged, I cried, I studied, I PRAYED. And here I am. Do NOT sit there and judge me and say that I didn't try. That I didn't pour my soul out into bible study. That I didn't sit in church and learn and listen. I HAVE done that. At the end of the day there is NO evidence to support belief in ANY God. Yours or anyone else's. That is the simple, plain, unadulturated truth. Please do not sit there and say I didn't try hard enough. I DID. I lost family, friends, relationships, money, jobs all in the name of this God. No amount of effort will make the impossible possible. WANTING something to be true doesn't make it TRUE.

For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. I Corinthians 14:33
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No? I point you to the Tower of Babel.

God is not the author of confusion, but we know who is! You spend copious amounts of time arguing against the One in Whom you choose not to believe in. How can you argue against Someone so vehemently that you don't think is exists?
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Because it's a form of logical argument. We can have a debate on Santa Claus without actually believing he exists can't we? Let me be clear, once again, becuase you don't seem to notice the difference here. I do not CHOOSE disbelief. I do not DENY God's existence. I do not have evidence or proof with which to believe in God. There IS a difference.

You have vast storehouses of knowledge, links, and resources of those who refuse to believe. You can shake your fist at God until the day you die, but you must come to Him on His terms. He is a Rock, I am thankful that you will not sway Him.
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It is that vast storehouse of knowledge, links and resources that have put me on the path I am on.

The Bible says that open rebuke is better than secret love. We care for your soul. The ones who died, DV, would be telling you the same things that we are. You ask questions that cannot be answered. It is about faith, trust, hope, in the Saviour Who was crucified for your sins. He already bore them, every last one, you decide if you want to mock and scourge Him as they did when they Crucified Him, or you decide you will accept the gift that He has already paid in full, by His blood. Spit on Him by denying Him if you want, your sins were nailed to His Cross and washed in His Blood, no matter.
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OY! This is not about DENIAL. What is so painfully difficult about understanding that? Were this about outright denial then I wouldn't care what you thought now would I?

How does anyone, who has taken the love and time here, to answer Spiritual things as best they can, know? The same as you can know, by taking heed to His Word... by humbly bowing before Him and telling Him, just as we do, we do not understand it all, nevertheless, we choose to trust in Him. He is not a god-in-the-box that can be explained or reasoned away, He is, I AM, The Creator of all things.
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This is exactly why I started this thread. In the search for understanding. I cannot, in good conscious, embrace something I don't believe in. That is PRECISELY why I do not deny God's existence. I don't have the knowledge to do so, I don't have evidence contrary to His existence.

I do not mean to make you angry, but you may as well come along and join me, as you infuriate me by speaking against our Heavenly Father, and question the honesty and intigrity of belief, ridicule, and speak against my brothers and sisters in Christ.
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You SHOULD be infuriated. I know I am. How could your God ignore the cries and pleas of His very own followers in the midst of praising and worshipping Him? You hide behind the fact that no one can know the answer to that question. You're right, one can't know, but why does that mean we can't TRY to understand it. Don't shut your eyes to this tragedy, it's not going to go away. The simple fact is that many people died a horrible death WHILE THEY WERE WORSHIPPING GOD. An omnimax being could have prevented it, but God simply chose NOT TO. These people weren't in the act of sinning, they weren't in a crack house somewhere damning His name. They drove for hours to gather together to praise His name, to worship Him, to thank Him. And what did He do for them? NOTHING. He let them suffer, he let them die.
 
Dark Virtue said:
I spent the better part of half my life devoted to a being that I had no evidence to believe in. I know more than you do Marcy and that's the simple truth. I have been on your side of the fence, I have been a fervent believer. I know it and understand it.
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I've gotta disagree with you here DV. You never knew Christ. Perhaps you believed in God, but so does satan. If you ever had a true understanding and a true desire to have Christ in control of your life...you would not be where you are right now. It's not something that just goes away, no matter what happens in your life.

You may have a lot of head knowledge about the bible and Christianity, but you've never been a true Christian. You can rant a rave all you like disagreeing with me...but you'll never convince me.

I grew up in the church with wonderful Christian parents. I was at church every Sunday, I read my bible, I prayed, I did everything a good Christian is supposed to do...but I did not turn control of my life over to God until I was 21 years old. God allowed some things to happen to me that broke my pride, and I praise Him for it. That is when I became a true Christian. I was so prideful that I could not turn my life over to God. I believed...but as the bible tells us, so do the demons.

There is a difference between head knowledge and being a Christian.

Dark Virtue said:
At the end of the day there is NO evidence to support belief in ANY God. Yours or anyone else's. That is the simple, plain, unadulturated truth.
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Evidence is all around you DV for the existance of a creator. I pity anyone who believes this world and the life and order we see on it happened by chance. I don't play the lottery DV but if I believed the world happened by chance I'd be there buying tickets every chance I got. The odds of winning the lottery are very, VERY, VERY good compared to all this happening by chance.
 
Well in response to Mr. Bill's Response,

Yes that is reasonable. You are interpreting since we are saying his wisdom is superior, that does not mean we can get pieces of it.
 
You are right, Mr. Bill, and I am trying not to give into frustration. I appreciate your patient encouragement :) I think my biggest frustration is my own lack of ability to describe Him. I love a hymn called The Love of God, in part it reads:

O love of God, how rich and pure!
How measureless and strong!
It shall forevermore endure
The saints' and angels' song.

Could we with ink the ocean fill,
And were the skies of parchment made,
Were every stalk on earth a quill,
And every man a scribe by trade,
To write the love of God above,
Would drain the ocean dry.
Nor could the scroll contain the whole,
Though stretched from sky to sky.

I think the same can be said about describing God. The more I know, the more there is to know, and my description is limited by my lack of knowledge, and the limit of human vocabulary.

DV drops the gloves, then punches me with his bare fist!! :p

Considering these verses:

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Hebrews 11:16

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:17

and the fact that God cannot/will not lie, and that every promise will come to fruition...all is not lost for you! I am concerned about your sources, and I have said that before. If I have a drug problem, I will not be hanging out in Harlem and partaking with them in order for the strong hold of drug abuse to be released in my life. You say, "WANTING something to be true doesn't make it TRUE." Yet, faith is the substance of our belief...this is a catch-22.

GGGGGrr you, DV! The Tower of Babel? The enemy so enjoys twisting the Word. God confounded their language! He was not confusing them. The Bible is true. Period. He is not the author of confusion.

It is that vast storehouse of knowledge, links and resources that have put me on the path I am on.
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Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path. Psalm 119:105

That is what I am getting at. You are on the wrong path...more like a slippery slope!

OY! This is not about DENIAL. What is so painfully difficult about understanding that? Were this about outright denial then I wouldn't care what you thought now would I?
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Yes, you would care, I'm just lovable! :) Perhaps due, in part, to my inferior knowledge handicap!
I cannot comprehend. Nothing against you, Mr. Bill, Jim...any unbeliever...it frightens me to death to even dream of the possibility He does not exist! Before I was saved, I knew that I was running from Him, I knew as a very little girl that He existed. I used to think of how lonely He must have been before He created anything. I would try and imagine the darkness...Awful! Unimaginable! An old Saint once said if you want God you have already found Him. That just somehow does not seem to be true in you cases.

I agree wholeheartedly with Didasko. I am in hopes you will take all those words to heart. Please know, words may get seemingly harsh, but everyone here loves you guys and cares for your soul or they wouldn't give you the time of day. And when you are talking about God, you are talking about our Father...who is very real to us. We are not heartless, tragedies like this, and the ones that strike us personally, leave us questioning. Yet, by faith, we know He has the whole world in His hands. He cast the enemy down. He won't stop Him yet, (while He could, it has something to do with the Spiritual realm and laws that I don't think anyone will truly understand in full, this side of Heaven), but He will turn our tears into miraculous joy and work all out for our good!
 
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Hmmm....

Hey DV, I have a serious, non-antagonistic question for you, just because I'm curious. (This is something I've never understood about agnostics.)

Why do you argue so vehemently against something that you say may or may not exist? Wouldn't that cause a kind of indifference?

By the way, my sympathy for your loss. I know it means little, coming from some guy on the internet you don't know, but all the same, I can't imagine the pain you must feel at that loss.
 
Didasko said:
I've gotta disagree with you here DV. You never knew Christ. Perhaps you believed in God, but so does satan. If you ever had a true understanding and a true desire to have Christ in control of your life...you would not be where you are right now. It's not something that just goes away, no matter what happens in your life.

You may have a lot of head knowledge about the bible and Christianity, but you've never been a true Christian. You can rant a rave all you like disagreeing with me...but you'll never convince me.

I grew up in the church with wonderful Christian parents. I was at church every Sunday, I read my bible, I prayed, I did everything a good Christian is supposed to do...but I did not turn control of my life over to God until I was 21 years old. God allowed some things to happen to me that broke my pride, and I praise Him for it. That is when I became a true Christian. I was so prideful that I could not turn my life over to God. I believed...but as the bible tells us, so do the demons.

There is a difference between head knowledge and being a Christian.
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I don't think DV is saying that he merely thoroughly studied up on the Christian faith, and I don't think it's right that you make that conclusion about him. You base it on inadequate information, making it more of an assumption than anything else. And probably an incorrect one, though only DV can tell you that.
 
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