how many demons or angels are there?

Atown

Christian Gamers Alliance Amazon Store Manager
Staff member
currently im under the understanding that 1/3 of all the angels went with satan at the time of the fall. because its a finite number, then how many demons are there really?? for me i'm willing to consider that there are several demons per person + whatever congregations of demons and strongholds might there be at certain locations...... and i just checked so
U.S. 300,266,481
World 6,558,809,813
16:51 GMT (EST+5) Nov 23, 2006
so.... how many are there.... and say we tripled the world number of people around, would the demon to human ratio drop drasticallly?
 

Durruck

Pirate!
There is no number actually given to us in the Bible. However, Revelation seems to lead us to believe that there are multitudes of angels. I assume that there are more angels that weren't in God's throne room, but in various places around the earth and maybe other places in Heaven.

Same goes for demons. We don't know how many fallen angels there are, but it's likely a very large number.

As for the Angels & Demons to humans ratio...nowhere in the Bible do we see creation or birth of new angels, but the Bible doesn't tell us directly about how Cain, Able, and Seth had children. Obviously there were either daughters of Adam & Eve, or God created more women. I assume that the same could hold true for angels.
 
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Atown

Christian Gamers Alliance Amazon Store Manager
Staff member
assuming more angels were created certainly some would go for satans side because of free will, but couldt humans at some point in the future outnumber demons since it doesnt seem like a relativly finite number of demons and the amazing rate of human population growth

U.S. 300,267,568
World 6,558,843,372
20:40 GMT (EST+5) Nov 23, 2006
i mean in the last few hours we have 33559 new humans
 

Durruck

Pirate!
Hm. I don't know. I wouldn't guess that an angel, who could already see other fallen angels in Hell, would choose to betray God. But, on the same note, why would humans choose the lifestyles they do that take them away from God?

Yes, it's rhetorical. No, I don't have an answer.
 

Neirai the Forgiven

Christian Guilds List Manager
assuming more angels were created certainly some would go for satans side because of free will, but couldt humans at some point in the future outnumber demons since it doesnt seem like a relativly finite number of demons and the amazing rate of human population growth
There's an easy way to check the population differences between demons and angels, and it is why I don't believe in the finite numbers of spirits.

This way is called "mathematics." Let me explain:

Let us say there are x number of demons. That would imply that their are 2x angels.

Right now there are about 6 billion humans and that number is rising very quickly.

So let us postulate that there are 6 billion demons and 12 billion angels. That gives one demon for each human being, which explains why the world is so screwed up.

Now let us fast forward a few years until there are 9 billion humans. At this point Satan's forces would be at 2 3rds strength whereas God's forces would still be able to operate at full strength.

Get what I'm saying? if there is a finite number of spirits, over time the power of Satan would rapidly decline as there would be not enough demons to function as efficiently as before. God's power would likewise decline because of the same reason, but at only half the speed. However in real life we have seen a steady increase in the perceived (emphasis on perceived) power of Satan in the world. Also (although arguably) there has been an increase in God's power in the lives of believers... although that prolly has more to do with us trying to follow Christ than a real increase in God's already limitless power.

+++++++---------------------------------------
so back to the original question about the numbers of angels and demons.

I personally (the Bible is quite quiet about this subject.. I guess it wasn't really important to the gospel writers' world*) believe that spirits are denominational. What I mean is this:

The Bible specifically talks about evil spirits... spirits of unrest, of fear, of religiousness, blaspheming spirits, etc. The Bible doesn't say every problem has a spiritual root, but many do. So I take that to mean that there may actually be only a few evil spirits, but they get around a lot. Remember that there is only one Holy Spirit, but he can handle the whole universe (now, remember, he's also totally more uber 'cuz he's God.) Each of these spirits is responsible for the upkeeping of one kind of problem in the world. Of course, there are prolly more than one spirit assigned to each task, but I don't believe that there's one spirit assigned to each person and they may run out of manpower. Bear in mind that spirits are not bound by the same laws of physics that humans are.


*Anyhow, I wish the Bible said more specifically about this so I could actually quote something and say "This is what God says." As it is I feel finite and a bit scared that someone may take this post as being what God says when I didn't even quote Him once.
 

Avesther

New Member
and i just checked so so.... how many are there.... and say we tripled the world number of people around, would the demon to human ratio drop drasticallly?
Actually, it wouldn't change it all. Gods reality is the eternal realm, and all points of eternity touch all points of our time bound existence. Through Gods eyes, he sees today, yesterday and tomorrow all in the eternal now. Which means if the world population were to triple over the next 5 years, those people will exist tomorrow in relation to us today, they exists in the Eternal now in relation to God. From our Lords perspective, the ratio between angels, demons and people remains absolutely constant.
 

Atown

Christian Gamers Alliance Amazon Store Manager
Staff member
then let me ask you another question: what happens to demons when their slayn, or vice versa?
 

Durruck

Pirate!
I don't think that angels and demons are slain... even Jesus didn't slay them, He just forced them to leave
 

Atown

Christian Gamers Alliance Amazon Store Manager
Staff member
but theres spiritual warfare right?


"Do not be afraid, O man highly esteemed," he said. "Peace! Be strong now; be strong."
When he spoke to me, I was strengthened and said, "Speak, my lord, since you have given me strength."

20 So he said, "Do you know why I have come to you? Soon I will return to fight against the prince of Persia, and when I go, the prince of Greece will come; 21 but first I will tell you what is written in the Book of Truth. (No one supports me against them except Michael, your prince.

since its obvious there fighting i would assume they use weapons to "kill" but then again it could just be me hoping its not just pansy wrestling like jacob and God.....
 

lueff

New Member
First of all, I want all of you to be careful. There is nothing wrong with theological speculation, but at no time should you ever take a step past that which you can back biblically.

I've had discussions like this in relaxed settings with friends - come to points of disagreement and uncertainty, and be shamed when an upperclassman comes in and asks us "Where are your Bibles". I've learned the lesson the hard way... let's make sure that conversations like this are grounded in something we can all trust.

I don't mean to scold or chastise, but if you are going to be discussing theology, please, please support your ideas and notions with scripture.

And on a last note before I enter the discussion - please. PLEASE, never use the word "pansy" in reference to my God ever again. Ever.

That I am aware of, there is nowhere in God's Word anything that should lead us to believe that there is a certain mathematical relativity between humans and angelic beings. In fact, there is nowhere in the Bible that gives us any specific, finite information about the exact number of angels. We know that a third of them were deceived by Lucifer and fell, but we do not have any other amounts aside from this. However, do not be perturbed about not being able to know these things. We are told repeatedly to respect the mystery of God, and during this lifetime on earth, we can rest assured that there is much we can NEVER know.

As far as Spiritual Warfare is concerned - angels and principalities do war. I think a good example of what you are referring to can be found in Daniel chapter 10. Even though you didn't bother to list any verses, what you just quoted is from Daniel, so I'll go ahead and elaborate on that for you. In this account, an angel sent to Daniel appears before him to tell him of that why it was sent. In this account the angel explains to Daniel that he would have been there sooner, but a demon - the principality of Persia (Prince of Persia, as it is called) - interfered and thwarted the angel's passage. They contested each other for 21 days, until the angel Michael came to help. The principality (demon) was not killed, injured, or slain as we can see, but it was subdued.

To help explain what a principality is, and how this passage relates in context, here is a reference from Charles Ryrie's notes:

"10:12 Daniel's prayer was heard on the day of the three-week period, but the answer was delayed because of angelic warfare.
10:13 the prince of the kingdom of Persia. A supernatural creature who tried to direct the human rulers of Persia to oppose God's plan. Evil angels seek to influence the affairs of nations. Michael, which means "who is like God?" (v.21;12:1;Jude 9; Rev.12:7), is the special guardian of the affairs of Israel (12:1) and is designated the archangel (Jude 9). one of the chief princes shows a hierarchy among the angels (cf. Eph. 1:21). I remained there with the kings of Persia. The good angel (cf. vv. 5-6), with Michael's help, was left in a place of preeminence in influencing Persia. But the battle bettween good and evil angels over the control of nations continues (see v. 20 and Rev. 20:3)"

Death is a very perspective-related term when referring to the Bible. For humans, because of the fall, we are doomed to two deaths. The first is the death of the body - which happens to everyone. The second is the death of the relationship we have with God. Without salvation, we are all going to Hell, infinite and eternal separation from God. This is the death that we as Christians are saved from.

So to answer both your inquiries - yes. Angelic powers do engage in warfare. We can see multiple accounts in the Bible of these beings opposing and contesting one another. However, they do not employ the methods we as humans are familiar with. Angels are spirits only. They do not hack on each other with swords, stab each other with switchblades, or blow each other away with oozies. I'm sorry if that disappoints you, but what we're discussing here is a completely higher level of battle.

As far as this "spiritual battle" relates to Christians, we are given specific instructions in how to prepare.

We as Christians are told to gird ourselves in the Armor of God. However, this is not a physical battle, nor an active battle against spirits. It is a defense we arm ourselves with and an offense in the form of God's Word that we can use when we share His Gospel. We don't wield the Sword of the Spirit so we can go around decapitating unbelievers. This armor is faith, truth, peace, and salvation. It is that which protects us from the Devil and arms us for service.

Ephesians 6:10-13
Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

And with that knowledge I sincerely hope that you do acknowledge this.

In short, we have no reason to speculate that we can determine the number of angelic beings - even in estimation. And angels and demons to not "fight to kill", but resist each other. God sometimes intervenes, but never do we find trace in scripture of an angelic being being "killed" or "slain".
 

Atown

Christian Gamers Alliance Amazon Store Manager
Staff member
laf sorry bout not being specific on where the verse came from. im familer with pretty much everything u just said. sooo..... angels and demons sit there having like a DBZ power struggle and thats it...... thats kinda lame.... oh well
 

Neirai the Forgiven

Christian Guilds List Manager
since its obvious there fighting i would assume they use weapons to "kill" but then again it could just be me hoping its not just pansy wrestling like jacob and God.....
1) How can wrestling from dusk til dawn (that's prolly 6-10 hours straight) be considered "pansy?"
That sounds like crazy harsh wrestling to me.

laf sorry bout not being specific on where the verse came from. im familer with pretty much everything u just said. sooo..... angels and demons sit there having like a DBZ power struggle and thats it...... thats kinda lame.... oh well
2) I think you're being anthropomorphic here. Uhh... what I mean is "I think that you are assigning the features of humanity to things that don't have them here."

I think you've got the picture a bit wrong in your head. When the angel in Daniel and the "Prince of Persia" faced off, I don't think it looked like this:

Angel: Let me through or I will toast you! (Thrusts finger out menacingly)
PoP: Oh yeah? Well, you haven't seen my gamma gi profanous form!! (grows three large black scorpian tails out of the left side of his head)
Angel: Oh really??!!1! Well, you haven't seen my sanctura nan glorious form!!! (his wings open wider revealing sharp edges on the tips)
<continues in this vein until Michael comes along, grabs the message, rolls his eyes, and goes off to see Daniel>


Okay, so I'm making fun of DBZ here. Go figure. But anyways, I don't think that angels and demons being immortal makes spiritual warfare in any way "lame." I mean, in Daniel 10:12, the angel tells him that it took twenty-one days of solid combat for his prayers to get through. Just because no-one was killed doesn't mean that this was really intense combat. I mean, obviously it was intense because the angel had to call for back-up in order to get past the Prince of Persia (Dan 10:13). This implies that there was some real action going on. People (or angels) don't have to die in order for there to be action.

Of course, the other reason they don't die is because they can't. Angels and yes, demons because they are fallen angels, don't operate under the curse of humanity that makes us mortal (demons have their own curses to deal with). Even in Revelation, the demons are not killed. Rather, they are cast into the lake of fire (Rev 20:14) where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Sucks to be them. They'll most likely wish they were mortal at that point in time.


But anyway, remember that all of these spiritual fights have direct and immediate results on human life. They are ongoing, and just because they have a really low body count (Kills: God: 0, Satan: 1... although the respawn on that one leads me to think Satan is just padding his figures) doesn't mean that it isn't a crazy-awesome war going on with amazing action and REAL struggle, victory, and defeat.

I don't really think that "kinda lame" really does this conflict justice :)
 

lueff

New Member
laf sorry bout not being specific on where the verse came from. im familer with pretty much everything u just said. sooo..... angels and demons sit there having like a DBZ power struggle and thats it...... thats kinda lame.... oh well
It only bothered me the first time, but are you actually TRYING to offend someone?
 

ChickenSoup

Banned
but the Bible doesn't tell us directly about how Cain, Able, and Seth had children. Obviously there were either daughters of Adam & Eve, or God created more women. I assume that the same could hold true for angels.
They most likely married their sisters. Back then you could do that, because the defects that would have resulted from such relations wouldn't have happened because there were no defects (at that time) to build up in the family's genes, therefore making it much safer to marry your siblings. Now, of course, you can't do that, because A. I think it's illegal and B. the children would have double the chance to get defects/impairments that run in your family.

The Bible says that Adam lived six hundred something years and had many sons and daughters during his life, I believe.
 

Atown

Christian Gamers Alliance Amazon Store Manager
Staff member
It only bothered me the first time, but are you actually TRYING to offend someone?
ROFL not in the least bit i was just being sarcastic/trying to be funny. i never try to offend anyone, but sometimes the context in which i say things gets lost. sorry bout that.
 

lueff

New Member
Humor is one thing, but be careful that we always remember the respect and sanctity that God and His Word deserve.

In my opinion, there is nothing "pansy"ish or "lame" about the Bible or anything it says. Avoiding words like this would be a good principle for the future.

God is love. But he is also Adonai.
 

TSCavalier

New Member
Just to understand this line of conversation and keep it in perspective. This type of discussion is along the same lines as "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?" as was debated in the 1200's.

The number of angels and demons that exist is not relevant to our lives as human beings. There isn't a cosmic scorecard of whether angels or demons are "winning" the fight. It's not a celestial "team deathmatch".

The war is already won. The number of demons is irrelevant because they are already defeated. The number of angels is irrelevant because they have already won... and not angels themselves, but God, who is the source of all power.

Put it another way: What if there were only one angel and 6 million demons?

It doesn't matter... God has already won...

What if there were no angels, and an infinite number of demons?

It doesn't matter... God has already won...

I (personally) believe that the concept of "demonic forces" is something that we use to put a label on our own struggle against God. The "demon" in someone (so to speak) is their resistance to surrendering to the already victorious Jesus Christ.

Our true commission is not to battle demons... but to instead inform people that the battle is already won. Our "job" is to inform, to show God's love by example, and to live a life of service... the life of service that Jesus (God) Himself provided a perfect example for.

It's not about fighting... it's about serving. The battle is won. The war is over. Sin and death no longer hold power against humanity. Our choice is to remain with our dead, defeated, sinful selves or to surrender ourselves to God and live. God resurrects our dead souls and gives us eternal life.

Of course, physical "battles" exist in the material world in which we live. Disease, violence, corruption... the battleground. We do physically live among the dead... the casualties of the spiritual warfare that has already been won. The Earth is a spiritual graveyard, if you will. However, God resurrects the dead, and we (as Christians) are recipients of that gracious gift.

Yes, we continue to walk among the dead... often attempting to coax the dead to life... trying to find survivors... and it is often a painful and arduous task. But, we live in the joyful assurance that the battle is already won.
 

Zeena

New Member
Of course, the other reason they don't die is because they can't. Angels and yes, demons because they are fallen angels, don't operate under the curse of humanity that makes us mortal (demons have their own curses to deal with).
Umm, there is no curse of humanity..

God would not curse the man and woman He had already blessed..
Instead, He cursed the ground becuase of them.
 
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