How?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Vipes
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I do see your point Timor, but I don't agree with it. It makes no sense to me to assume anything about Gods power. You want us to make the assumption that just because God knows the choices we make, we had no choice in the first place, which just isn't true. Like pop said, its really rather simple. I guess I just don't try to over complicate my beleifs with the stuff that seems so unimportant. I trust God, submit my life to Him and follow in faith. It is really very, very simple.


Cory
 
ok, here's a sampling.

Take a piece of paper.  draw a line from the middle of the top of the page until u hit the first line.  at that line, branch off two ways, until you hit the next line.  at each line, branch off two ways until the paper is filled.

That is what God sees.  He sees an infinite number of us, making an infinite number of choices. and once we make that choice, then the other line fades.

Could He influence that decision?  Of course He can.  But He gave us free will. That means that He won't make that decision for us.



But let look at this another way.  we have a rat in a maze doing the cheese hunt thing.  We, since we're standing above the maze, know which way the rat should go.  We are omniscient in relation to that maze.  We KNOW every single branch.  Yet do we pick the way for the rat?  Even though we KNOW which way the rat MUST take to get to the cheese, we do not FORCE the rat to take that way, rather we let the rat make a free will choice as to which way it wishes to go.
 
Pop and Thaddius, you're absolutely right. It is SO simple, which is why I cannot even BEGIN to understand how you interpret it the way you do. In fact, I'm really losing interest, because I know that since this would shatter your whole belief system, no matter how I try to pound the logic in, you are going to keep forcing it out. I'm going to simply stop trying. Let's just drop it, because I'm only going to get frustrated with you, and I don't want to
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And Kidan, you continue to short-change your God. I've already explained why, and as Pop said, I'm getting tired of repeating myself. If you care, go back and read my other posts. I suggest that to everyone, as it really doesn't seem like you are. Well, atleast Thaddius says he understands what I'm saying (though, if you really did, you'd agree with me
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Timor, I hate to break your heart, but just like every other athiest who has come here and tried to sway me with science and big talk, you will never ever "shatter my whole belief system."  You put your faith in science and intellect.  I'll put my faith in God through Jesus Christ.  See you at the finish line.  
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Cory
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (timor @ Sep. 22 2003,5:21)]And Kidan, you continue to short-change your God. I've already explained why, and as Pop said, I'm getting tired of repeating myself. If you care, go back and read my other posts. I suggest that to everyone, as it really doesn't seem like you are. Well, atleast Thaddius says he understands what I'm saying (though, if you really did, you'd agree with me  
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Why do you think I short change my God? It's not that I don't think He could do as you say, but rather, since He said we have free will. Since we HAVE the chance to screw up, I think it runs more along the way I say.

Do you think I like consistently and constantly repeating myself? Not really. Yet I will consistently and constantly repeat myself. I understand what you are saying. You are saying because God knows all the cards, he's cheating at the game. But God gifted us with free will, and the ability to choose. You are limiting my God, by saying that He could not give us that gift, even in light of His omniscience. This overlooks the entire concept of omnipotence, as it places a limit on His power. It's saying it is not in God's power to grant us free will, because He sees all possibilities.

And if everyone understood what I'm saying, we'd all be Christians
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The simple fact that we can not act contrary to what his omniscience knows we will do eliminates potentials.

In other words, if God knows I will do something, I will do it as is a requisite of such a thing to be considered knowledge.

Do we agree on this?

I hope so...

Now, because of this all potentials are eliminated (as Timor and I have said over and over again).

If we have no potentials, we do not have choices.

This is not a very complicated issue.
 
Kidan, he doesn't see possibilities, his omniscience requires that he sees absolutes. He knows what will happen, since he knows absolutely all that will occur there are no potentials, unless you are insinuating that God is imagining things, but to change something would negate his own omniscience.

Normally I never use this argument but I am going to pose a simple question, depending on your answer I will decide as to whether or not it is necessary.

Can God defy logic?
 
Assuming God can defy logic, such a question is perfectly reasonable. A simple "God can't act outside of logic" of course refutes such an example with ease, which path do you choose?
 
who ever said God was logical? there are just so many illogical things that happen that is just insane to say that Logic is the supreme authority.
 
I dont think any of us can grasp God enough to be able to explain why he created us in that way and still knew all that would and could happen..

i'll ask him in a few years..
 
Yes. God acts outside of Logic.

God promises to love us, save us, and be just. He never said He had to be logical
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Kidan @ Sep. 23 2003,10:51)]Yes.  God acts outside of Logic.

God promises to love us, save us, and be just.  He never said He had to be logical
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Can I use that one?
 
I dident read the other posts cause I am too tired but this is what I have to say. I think this is more of a question of who came first the chicken or the egg? Did you go first and make the choices and then God sees them or did God see the choices before we made them or does God see the future by talking to his future self? I am not sure if it is either one of those it is beyond my comprehension but thats somthing to think about anyway. Is it possable that time always exists and the past and the future never stop? Or is "time" even and entity that could explain this?
 
Pop, he as an omniscient being God, by definition can not 'learn'. Thus he already does and has known everything, this means he would have no reason to talk to his 'future self'.

Well, if God can act outside of logic, he surely can creat a stone too heavy for himself to lift. Yet this is a paradox as it negates his omnipotence either way.

If God acts outside of logic he is not perfectly just as such a thing is a product of logic.
 
As far as talking to his future self I never said I accepted that those where just some random theories. As far as making a stone to heavy for himself to lift well God only knows.
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I've always thought the "Stone so big He can't lift it" thing was pretty stupid. It's like asking Him to create a square circle.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Kohael <PC> @ Sep. 23 2003,8:21)]I've always thought the "Stone so big He can't lift it" thing was pretty stupid.  It's like asking Him to create a square circle.
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I agree. I was orginally going to say that atheists just say that so they dont believe in God but I dident,oops I just did.
 
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