I Should Know the Answer

CowRocket

Well-Known Member
John 14:6
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

We all know that..... but that leaves me with this.

Deuteronomy 14:2
For you (Jews) are a holy people to the Lord your God, and the Lord has chosen you to be a people for Himself, a special treasure above all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.

Umm... are modern day Jews going to hell?

I have asked many Pastors and scholars this question. I never get a clear answer, is there one?


Could a mod move this to the correct subforum?, Iposted to wrong one, kthx
 
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Atown

Christian Gamers Alliance Amazon Store Manager
Staff member
John 14:6
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

We all know that..... but that leaves me with this.

Deuteronomy 14:2
For you (Jews) are a holy people to the Lord your God, and the Lord has chosen you to be a people for Himself, a special treasure above all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.

Umm... are modern day Jews going to hell?

I have asked many Pastors and scholars this question. I never get a clear answer, is there one?


Could a mod move this to the correct subforum?, Iposted to wrong one, kthx
I think and what I've defaulted to is.... Yes...

yes we have a new covenant, but the new covenant completes the old. The bible also says we are judged based on our knowledge, so if a Jew followed the old covenant and knew not Jesus, should he be condemned? Logically I think not, but logically he can't follow the law because the temple doesn't exist to make sacrifices nor does he use a substitute location for sacrifices, therefore, no he doesn't go to heaven.....

in the end its pretty grey, but I lean towards God fulfilling all promises and gifts
 

The Mighty Gerbil

Tribe of Judah TF 2 Chapter Leader & CGA Admin
Staff member
Thread moved by request to this forum. Because we are using the new forums if there is any weird behavior due to this let me know.
 

The Mighty Gerbil

Tribe of Judah TF 2 Chapter Leader & CGA Admin
Staff member
Look I am a no nothing schmoe, and I'll probably type this poorly, but I'll give it a shot. This is how I read it...

Christ is God's love made flesh. An act of God to show his love of us by paying our debt of sin.
John 14:6 I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
Means no one will come to God but through His love.

Matthew 7 21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

I would think this applies to doing the Jewish sacrifices. Just doing things by rote without doing the will of the Father isn't going to get you to Heaven. Much like Cain's sacrifice without Faith was rejected.

John 14 21 Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”22 Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, “But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?” 23 Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. 24 Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

Thus I also believe if you never heard of Christ's existence, you could, theoretically, be saved. A man 1000 years before Christ on an island alone can realize his inevitable death and say "I am weak and flawed. I am wholly at the power of the One who made it all. Only by Him may I be saved and thus I will do all I can which is right by Him. Yet because I am flawed I know I cannot earn this perfect mercy so it must be by love that you give it. Thus if you love me with my flaws you must love others and so I too love them desiring to do your will." Also known as Matthew 22 34-40 the commandments for which all the law hangs. Unfortunately every culture I know of did not do this they instead made gods in their own image which were just as flawed as they. Now just to be explicitly clear I'll preempt questions...

Gasp, are you actually saying you can be saved without Christ!

NO. I am saying it is Christ knowing us, and he knows us by doing his will, that matters for our salvation not us knowing his Earthly "name" and history. He would know us if we kept his commandments regardless of where we got them. Yet had Christ known us we would have accepted Christ having been told of Him because God is in Christ and we were already pursuing God's will. There are plenty of "Christians" who know his name and do not do his will. If you doubt ask this do you believe unborn children can enter heaven? The important point here is it is God's judgement over them that matters not that they never knew Christ by "name".

Then what's the point of telling people about Christ?
The point is we cannot know people's hearts nor know if they do God's will. Thus the Holy Spirit can work through us for their salvation and acceptance of Christ.

Bringing this back to the Jewish sacrifices it is again theoretically possible, though extremely unlikely, someone doing them could be like that man on an island who, having never heard of Christ, could be saved. Though if they were and heard who Christ was they would know and accept him. It is the rejection of Christ, and thus the Holy Spirit, which condemns them not the Jewish sacrifices.

...and yes I know Christ's sacrifice paid a debt too but a debt is paid whether we have knowledge of the act or not. It is our choice to accept or reject that payment that matters.
 
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Max the Ax

New Member
Everyone needs Jesus. God has no grandchildren. Being born a Jew does not mean that the person is born righteous. "There is none righteous, no not one."
There is no exception, Jews who refuse to accept the Lord Jesus will end up separated from God for all of eternity.
It's just that simple, one cannot refuse "such a great salvation" and expect to slip in by some side door. Jesus is the only DOOR to Heaven.
 

Kahiel

Active Member
Ooh, I think a couple of different things have been brought up here. Not sure I have the time right now to process the whole thing. Getting to the initial question which was asked...

Umm... are modern day Jews going to hell?

I have asked many Pastors and scholars this question. I never get a clear answer, is there one?
The only issue with regard to salvation is one's faith in Jesus Christ. If a Jew has accepted Jesus as his Lord and Savior then certainly he is saved and there are many who have (Messianic Jews or Jews for Jesus). However, if a person is a devout Jew, keeps the High Holy Days and is sincere in his or her devotion to the Lord, that does not mean they are saved. Salvation did not, and does not come through adherence to the Law or following the sacrifices but only come through faith in Jesus. I think of this in terms of adoption and pruning as Paul and Jesus used the metaphors in Scripture.

Paul states that we have been adopted into the family (of Jesus who is a son of Abraham) through the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:15, Ephesians 1:5-7. Romans 11:17). Additionally, Jesus uses the analogy of a vintner grafting branches onto the the plant as well as dead branches (non-believing Jews is how I take it) will be pruned and cast into the fire (John 15:1-8).
 

CowRocket

Well-Known Member
I really appreciate the answers given.

I personally thought the bible was clear in this matter (love, follow, obey-Heaven) Just makes me wonder how He could send His chosen people to hell.... but then again, are the modern day Jews His people?

Keep the posts coming, my small mind would like as many points as possible.
 

The Mighty Gerbil

Tribe of Judah TF 2 Chapter Leader & CGA Admin
Staff member
The Jews are God's chosen people. They fulfilled God's prophecy and from what interpretations of Revelations I've heard still have prophecy to fulfill. Being God's people never gave them a free ticket to the front of the line in Heaven though. In fact it's the opposite...

"And that slave who knew his master's will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes, but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more." Luke 12:47-48.


There were things they were supposed to do and things foretold to come from them. Frequently they didn't do those things and God punished them for it, yet God's purpose and plan for them on Earth still remains.

I mean think about it, pretend you're God (that's easy for Shirley McClain :p ) how do you show your presence and love to the world? Well you could do a miracle everyday, which He does, it's called existence but that would be taken for granted, and it is, or you could do one great deed above all others. The problem with that is it's unlikely everyone would hear of it. So what do you do? You choose the best person you can find and raise his descendants for a couple thousand years on your word, promises and prophecy. After the build up and when the time is right you send the foretold Christ to fulfill the Jewish purpose of being a blessing to all nations through Him. I think it's a pretty effective ad campaign just too bad some of the Jews missed the product unveiling (get it, unveiling, temple, he he :D).

Regardless they still have a prophecy to fulfill and they are still living (or trying to live) where God wants them. So they are still the people God "chose" to do that. The devil knows this and so seeks to destroy them to make God's prophecy wrong. So we should do all we can to support Israel not because they are genetically Jews but because they are Jews doing God's will (at least in being there).
 
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Kahiel

Active Member
Israel is God's chosen people. It is through Israel that God brought his word (Scripture). It is through Israel God brought His salvation through His Son Jesus. Since Jesus came and died for our sin, He is the only way to the Father. For those of Israel who have seen the signs but have not followed Jesus, they will have to make an accounting of themselves. There are still more prophesies that will be fulfilled through Israel, consider for instance the 144,000 of Revelation 7.
 

Patriot

Active Member
Umm... are modern day Jews going to hell?
I think this begs the question - did Jews in the past go to hell? I think it could be argued from various places in the Old Testament that while being a Jew did afford a measure of special blessing it did not ensure a place in heaven. Hebrews 11 points out that Jews in times past were saved by their faith the same as we are today. The only difference was that they were looking forward to Christ's sacrifice while we look backward. Thus, a Jew without faith is in as much trouble as a gentile without faith.
 

Max the Ax

New Member
"Thus, a Jew without faith is in as much trouble as a gentile without faith. " I am with Patriot on that point. No man comes unto the Father except through Jesus Christ - He is now the Great High Priest for all of humanity.
 

Kahiel

Active Member
I think this begs the question - did Jews in the past go to hell? I think it could be argued from various places in the Old Testament that while being a Jew did afford a measure of special blessing it did not ensure a place in heaven. Hebrews 11 points out that Jews in times past were saved by their faith the same as we are today. The only difference was that they were looking forward to Christ's sacrifice while we look backward. Thus, a Jew without faith is in as much trouble as a gentile without faith.
Indeed. The people of Israel prior to the incarnation are saved through Jesus by their faith in God, this is pointed out in Hebrews 11 as you stated. Today's Jews consider contrition the way for remediation of their sin (according to a Messianic Jew I spoke to) not the Law, not through sacrifice at the Temple and not through faith in Jesus.
 

CowRocket

Well-Known Member
Today's Jews consider contrition the way for remediation of their sin (according to a Messianic Jew I spoke to) not the Law, not through sacrifice at the Temple and not through faith in Jesus.
Saved by works.... We know that doesn't work.

It appears that all being God's chosen people affords them just a special blessing and they still must chose faith in Jesus..... interesting concept, and makes sense.
 

Patriot

Active Member
What is interesting, is that all through the Old Testament no matter how far God's people wandered from Him, He always preserved a remnant that remained faithful to Him.
 

The Mighty Gerbil

Tribe of Judah TF 2 Chapter Leader & CGA Admin
Staff member
Random thoughts: The Zola Levitt show was really good back in the day and he was a Messianic Jew! God called him home though and although his step-son took over it wasn't quite as good. Some of his old shows are archived here like this one on witnessing to the Jews. It's very interesting to see the Bible, Christ and the Holy Land from a Messianic Jewish perspective. Not to mention hearing all the garbage Israel has to go though over there that doesn't even reach us :( .

Recently found an Orthodox Jew and political commentator, Ben Shapiro, who I like. He places arguments on sound logical, moral, points (often ones I've thought of before too) . He mostly, but not always, avoids the abrasive tone that comes from similar commentators. Such tones pander to those who already agree but put off convincing dissenters which we need to be doing. I just really wish he was a Messianic Jew and not just Orthodox :( . (and yes I know it's "politics" but more often than not politics are NOT separate from morality).
 
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Kahiel

Active Member
That's really cool Gerbil! Thanks!
My first foray into "being a Christian" I used to watch Zola Levitt. When I rededicated myself to Christ I caught the show and it was a pale comparison to the old one.
 

cc.slim

Moderator
Jew dunno, If Jew knew, then Jew be Jew no more. If all fall short then I would say that includes them and what I feel on them being special is as a father lifting an eye brow as the bully comes to his son, then them letting go of the old to embrace the new would surely grant his smile. Plus with them being tuned through Christ, God can hear his old tunes that only their soul can sing.(The oldies station) So I say as if I was to you, if Jew dunno then Jew won't go.
 
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