I'd like your input

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]It has to make sence that christianity borrowed from paganism or some other religion,

Thats forcing logic into your own conclusions.



[b said:
Quote[/b] ]I don't know anything about Mithraism, but I don't have a hard time believing that Christianity borrowed some of its ideas,

The current or common themes in Mithraism arose AFTER christianity.


[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Look at Easter and Christmas for example. That's a great example of merging pagan and Christian concepts together.

Catholicism, you'd have a point, yes. But, Easter nad Christmas are not Christian. I have yet to find them in the bible.
 
Correct, Easter and Christmas aren't in the Bible, yet they are the two biggest holidays associated with Christianity.

Does Christianity even have "holy" days?

I understand that you don't WANT to believe that Christianity borrowed from pagans, but don't you think it's even slightly, remotely possible?

And Mithraism may not have come into its own until the 6th century, but its ideas existed long before then.  
 
BTW, if you still think Mithraism didn't contribute anything then try looking into Zoroastrianism.

I just ran across this website: http://www.medmalexperts.com/POCM/getting_started_pocm.html

It's an entire webpage dedicated to Pagan Origins of Christ and Christianity.

Among the subjects covered are:

Salvation through divine grace
Virgin birth
Baptism
Sacrred Meal
Eternal Life
Miracles
Prophecy
God&Soul
Monotheism
Heaven
Hell

And yes, the pagan aspects predate Christianity.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]but its [Mithraisms] ideas existed long before then.

No it didn't. The concepts of death and resurection for its God was foreign, completely foreign and absurd. But in a sense you are right, the ideas exist in the Old testament, which predates Mithraism. But the ideas didn't exist in mithriasm.

Do I think it is even remotely possible that Christianity (in its truist form) borrowed from the pagans? No.

Even after reading that website, my faith is still not shaken. It felt like I was walking hand in hand with the devil as I read through it. I have to admit, it was pretty black reading. I have to admit, there are elements of "truth" in the website, but the decievers twists and twists and convinces people who are looking for anything that appeases their ears and justifies in their mind any reason to not accept what is true and what is not.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]U have to admit there is a possibility.

What?
rock.gif
I am afraid, to your great disdain, that, I don't.
 
Christians we are through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Ac 11:26 and when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that even for a whole year they were gathered together with the church, and taught much people, and that the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.
 
Here is an excerpt from Robert Ingersoll, Why I am an Agnostic

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]There have been many sun-gods, and they seem to have been the
chief deities in the ancient religions. They have been worshiped in
many lands, by many nations that have passed to death and dust.

    Apollo was a sun-god and he fought and conquered the serpent
of night. Baldur was a sun-god. He was in love with the Dawn -- a
maiden. Chrishna was a sun-god. At his birth the Ganges was
thrilled from its source to the sea, and all the trees, the dead as
well as the living, burst into leaf and bud and flower. Hercules
was a sun-god and so was Samson, whose strength was in his hair --
that is to say, in his beams. He was shorn of his strength by
Delilah, the shadow -- the darkness. Osiris, Bacchus, and Mithra,
Hermes, Buddha, and Quetzalcoatl, Prometheus, Zoroaster, and
Perseus, Cadom, Lao-tsze, Fo-hi, Horus and Rameses, were all sun-
gods.

    All of these gods had gods for fathers and their mothers were
virgins. The births of nearly all were announced by stars,
celebrated by celestial music, and voices declared that a blessing
had come to the poor world. All of these gods were born in humble
places -- in caves, under trees, in common inns, and tyrants sought
to kill them all when they were babes. All of these sun-gods were
born at the winter solstice -- on Christmas. Nearly all were
worshiped by "wise men." All of them fasted for forty days -- all
of them taught in parables -- all of them wrought miracles -- all
met with a violent death, and all rose from the dead.

    The history of these gods is the exact history of our Christ.

    This is not a coincidence -- an accident. Christ was a sun-
god. Christ was a new name for an old biography -- a survival --
the last of the sun-gods. Christ was not a man, but a myth -- not
a life, but a legend.

    I found that we had not only borrowed our Christ -- but that
all our sacraments, symbols and ceremonies were legacies that we
received from the buried past. There is nothing original in
Christianity.

    The cross was a symbol thousands of years before our era. It
was a symbol of life, of immortality -- of the god Agni, and it was
chiseled upon tombs many ages before a line of our Bible was
written.

    Baptism is far older than Christianity -- than Judaism. The
Hindus, Egyptians, Greeks and Romans had Holy Water long before a
Catholic lived. The eucharist was borrowed from the Pagans. Ceres
was the goddess of the fields -- Bacchus of the vine. At the
harvest festival they made cakes of wheat and said: "This is the
flesh of the goddess." They drank wine and cried: "This is the
blood of our god."

    The Egyptians had a Trinity. They worshiped Osiris, Isis and
Horus, thousands of years before the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost
were known.

    The Tree of Life grew in India, in China, and among the
Aztecs, long before the Garden of Eden was planted.

    Long before our Bible was known, other nations had their
sacred books.

    The dogmas of the Fall of Man, the Atonement and Salvation by
Faith, are far older than our religion.

    In our blessed gospel, -- in our "divine scheme," -- there is
nothing new -- nothing original. All old -- all borrowed, pieced
and patched.

    Then I concluded that all religions had been naturally
produced, and that all were variation, modifications of one, --
then I felt that I knew that all were the work of man.

From Joseph McCabes, The History of Religious Controversy

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Yet it is true that no other nation in history ever showed such an intense concern about the future life; and the main reason for it startles simple-minded believers of modern times. The Persians believed in a Day of Judgment, when God (their one great god, Ahura Mazda) would destroy the earth, summon before him the souls of all men who had ever lived, reward the good and punish the living. It is clearly from Persia that certain sects of the Jews, and Christ and the early Christians, borrowed this idea of (in Persian language) "the coming of the Kingdom of Heaven."

From Stephen Van Eck's, Hare Jesus: Christianity's Hindu Heritage

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Objective and open-minded scholars long ago conceded that Christianity is at heart a revamped form of Judaism. In the process of its development as something distinct from its mother religion, it became hybridized with so much pagan influence that it ultimately alienated its original Jewish base and became predominantly Gentile. The source of this pagan influence is varied and vague in the minds of most advanced Bible critics, but it may owe more to Hinduism than most people suspect.

Most Christians are familiar with Galatians 6:7 , "Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap." Less known is Proverbs 26:27 , "Whoso diggeth a pit shall fall therein, and he that rolleth a stone, it will return upon him." Both express the Hindu principle of karma (the sum and the consequences of a person's actions during the successive phases of his existence), but since no direct connection can be deduced, we'll merely consider it an interesting coincidence and move on.

The concept of a soul that is distinguishable from the body and can exist independently of it is alien to Judaism. It is first known in Hinduism. Only after the Babylonian captivity did any such concept arise among the Jews, and it is in the epistles of Paul, the "debtor to both the Greeks and the Barbarians," that the notion receives its first clear expression. (See 2 Corinthians 5:8 and 12:3 .)

The Brahmin caste of the Hindus are said to be "twice-born" and have a ritual in which they are "born in the spirit." Could this be the ultimate source of the Christian "born again" concept (John 3:3 )?

The deification of Christ is a phenomenon often attributed to the apotheosis of emperors and heroes in the Greco-Roman world. These, however, were cases of men becoming gods. In the Jesus story, the Divinity takes human form, god becoming man. This is a familiar occurrence in Hinduism and in other theologies of the region. Indeed, one obstacle to the spread of Christianity in India, which was attempted as early as the first century, was the frustrating tendency of the Hindus to understand Jesus as the latest avatar (incarnation) of Vishnu.

It is in the doctrine of the Trinity that the Hindu influence may be most clearly felt. Unknown to most Christians, Hinduism has a Trinity (or Trimurti) too: Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva, who have the appellations the Creator, the Preserver, and the Destroyer (and Regenerator). This corresponds to the Christian Trinity in which God created the heavens and the earth, Jesus saves, and the Holy Spirit is referred to as a regenerator (Titus 3:5 ). It is interesting to note, furthermore, that the Holy Spirit is sometimes depicted as a dove, while the Hebrew language uses the same term for both "dove" and "destroyer"!

The Trinity was a major stumblingblock for the Jews, who adhered to strict monotheism. The inherent polytheism in the Trinity doctrine cannot be explained away with the nonsensical claim that three is one and one is three. Besides, Jesus himself undermined any pretense of triunity (or omnipotence, for that matter) in Matthew 19:17 , "And he said unto them, Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is God...." Matthew 20:23 ; Mark 14:32 ; John 5:30 ; 7:16 and 14:28 also contradict the Trinitarian concept.

The Hindu scriptures, which are the oldest in the world, contain a number of astonishingly familiar expressions. The Upanishads mention things like "the blind led by the blind" (Matt. 15:14 ) and God's being "the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow" (Heb. 13:8 ). The path is said to be "narrow and difficult to tread" (Matt. 7:14 ). They also make reference to "a voice from out of the fire" (Ex. 3:4 ) and a man's face shining after encountering God (Ex. 34:29 ). They refer to those who are "wise in their own conceits" (Prov. 34:29 ; Rom. 12:16 ), warn against "fleshly desires" (1 Pet. 2:11 ), and advise that "it is not by works alone that one attains the Eternal" (Gal. 2:16 ]), and "to many it is not given" to know of metaphysical truth (Matt. 13:11 ). They describe the Self as "smaller than a mustard seed" (Matt. 17:20 ), and they speak of "the highest knowledge, having drunk of which, one never thirsts" (John 4:14 ). And how about this: "Man does not live by breath alone, but by him in whom is the power of breath" (Matt. 4:4 )?

Then there is the Hindu epic, the Bhagavad-Gita, a story of the second person of the Hindu Trinity, who took human form as Krishna. Some have considered him a model for the Christ, and it's hard to argue against that when he says things like, "I am the beginning, the middle, and the end" (BG 10:20 vs. Rev. 1:8 ). His advent was heralded by a pious old man named Asita, who could die happy knowing of his arrival, a story paralleling that of Simeon in Luke 2:25 . Krishna's mission was to give directions to "the kingdom of God" (BG 2:72), and he warned of "stumbling blocks" along the way (BG 3:34; 1 Cor. 1:23 ; Rev. 2:14 ). The essential thrust of Krishna's sayings, uttered to a beloved disciple, sometimes seems to coincide with Jesus or the Bible. Compare "those who are wise lament neither for the living nor the dead" (BG 2:11) with the sense of Jesus' advice to "let the dead bury their own dead" (Matt. 8:22 ). Krishna's saying, "I envy no man, nor am I partial to anyone; I am equal to all" (BG 9:29) is a lot like the idea that God is no respecter of persons (Rom. 2:11 ; see also Matt. 6:45 ). And "one who is equal to friends and enemies... is very dear to me" (BG 12:18) is reminiscent of "love your enemies" (Matt. 6:44 ). Krishna also said that "by human calculation, a thousand ages taken together is the duration of Brahma's one day" (BG 8:17), which is very similar to 2 Peter 3:8 .

In fairness, however, one purported similarity needs to be discredited. Skeptics sometimes cite Kersey Graves in Sixteen Crucified Saviors or Godfrey Higgin's Anacalypsis (which Graves drew from) in asserting that Krishna was a crucified deity. No such event occurred in the Gita or in any recognized Hindu scripture. Given the pronounced syncretic tendency of Hinduism, it is safe to assume that any odd tales of Krishna's being crucified arose only after the existence of Christian proselytism, in imitation of the Christian narrative. It is neither authentic to Hinduism nor is Hinduism the source of that portion of the Christian narrative. The same may be said for most of the purported nativity stories. In my opinion, both Higgins and Graves are highly unreliable sources and should be ignored.

I'll close with Ecclesiastes 1:10 , another inconvenient and uncomfortable passage: "Is there anything whereof it may be said, See, this is new? It hath been already of old time, which was before us."
 
Here are some exerpts from someone that you might recognize and/or respect:

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]It is not at all surprising in view of the wide and growing influence of these religions that when the disciples in Antioch and elsewhere preached a crucified and risen Jesus they should be regarded as the heralds of another mystery religion, and that Jesus himself should be taken for the divine Lord of the cult through whose death and resurrection salvation was to be had. That there were striking similarities between the developing church and these religions cannot be denied. Even Christian apologist had to admit that fact.

Christianity triumphed over these mystery religions after long conflict. This triumph may be attributed in part to the fact that Christianity took from its opponents their own weapons, and used them: the better elements of the mystery religions were transferred to the new religion.

The victory of Christianity in the Roman empire is another example of that universal historical law, viz., that that culture which conquers is in turn conquered. This universal law is expecially true of religion. It is inevitable when a new religion comes to exist side by side with a group of religions, from which it is continually detaching members, introducing them into its own midst with the practices of their original religions impressed upon their minds, that this new religion should tend to assimilate with the assimilation of their members, some of the elements of these existing religions. "The more crusading a religion is, the more it absorbs." Certainly Christianity has been a crusading religion from the beginning. It is because of this crusading spirit and its superb power of adaptability that Christianity ahs {has} been able to survive.

This is not to say that the early Christians sat down and copied these views verbatim. But after being in contact with these surrounding religions and hearing certain doctrines expressed, it was only natural for some of these views to become a part of their subconscious minds. When they sat down to write they were expressing consciously that which had dwelled in their subconscious minds. It is also significant to know that Roman tolerance had favoured this great syncretism of religious ideas. Borrowing was not only natural but inevitable.

There are examples, but they are lengthy so I won't cut and paste them here.  You can view them yourself by following the link at the end of this post.

The examples include influences of The Cult Of Cybele and Attis, Adonis, Osiris and Isis, The Greater Mysteries At Eleusis and Mithraism.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]There can hardly be any gainsaying of the fact that Christianity was greatly influenced by the Mystery religions, both from a ritual and a doctrinal angle. This does not mean that there was a deliberate copying on the part of Christianity. On the contrary it was generally a natural and unconscious process rather than a deliberate plan of action. Christianity was subject to the same influences from the environment as were the other cults, and it sometimes produced the same reaction. The people were conditioned by the contact with the older religions and the background and general trend of the time. Dr. Shirley Jackson Case has written some words that are quite apt at this point. He says: "Following the lead of the apostle Paul, the Christian missionaries on gentile soil finally made of Christianity a more appealing religion than any of the other mystery cults. This was accomplished, not by any slavish process of imitation, but by {a} serious attempt to meet better the specific religious needs that the mysteries had awakened and nourished, and by phrasing religious assurances more convincingly in similar terminology."[Footnote: Case, "The Mystery Religions," The Encyclopedia of Religion, Edited by Vergilius Ferm, pp. 511-513]

The greatest influence of the mystery religions on Christianity lies in a different direction from that of doctrine and ritual. It lies in the fact that the mystery religions paved the way for the presentation of Christianity to the world of that time. They prepared the people mentally and emotionally to understand the type of religion which Christianity represented. They were themselves, in verying degrees, imperfect examples of the Galilean cult which was to replace them. They encouraged the movement away from the state religions and the philosophical systems and toward the desire for personal salvation and promise of immortality. Christianity was truly indebted to the mystery religions for this contribution, for they had done this part of the groundwork and thus opened the way for Christian missionary work. Many views, while passing out of paganism into Christianity were given a more profound and spiritual meaning by Christians, yet we must be indebted to the source. To discuss Christianity without mentioning other religions would be like discussing the greatness of the Atlantic Ocean without the slightest mention of the many tributaries that keep it flowing.

Christianity, however, [strikeout illegible] survived because it appeared to be the result of a trend in the social order or in the historical cycle of the human race. Forces have been known to delay trends but very few have stopped them. The staggering question that now arises is, what will be the next stage of man's religious progress? Is Christianity the crowning achievement in the development of religious thought or will there be another religion more advanced?

The author?

Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

"The Influence of the Mystery Religions on Christianity"
[29 November 1949-15 February 1950]
[Chester, Pa.]

LINK

I hope that Dr. King will lend a greater credence to this subject than the non-theists I have cited
 
Just wondering out loud, could it not be possible that God was trying to reach people of other religions, but they missed it in their scriptures, just like the Jews did and that is why so many scriptures have identical themes?
 
Is it possible? Yes. Is it probable? No.

If God was going to reach other religions, He would. You'd be limiting God if you said He tried and failed.
 
I didn't say he failed, obviously if he tried to reach them, he succeeded in that they got the message. But like I mentioned, it was the receiver of the message that failed.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Dark Virtue @ Sep. 16 2004,9:21)]IF He tried to reach them which I don't believe He did.

That's what the Bible is for, right?
Well, looks like you provided more evidence to my theory on objectivity. "I believe..." and "I don't believe...", are about the most subjective statement known to man kind. They are really nothing more then quasi conclusions based on a subjective view of evidence. Anyway...


God reaches out to all who seek him, its his promise. And the similiarities could well be the evidence for that.
 
There is plenty of basis, you simply rejected it. I guess, in the end, you are no different then you accuse me of being.
 
All things in my life are that easy. If you want to make it complicated for yourself, well, thats your cup of tea.
 
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