In Response to Atown's Rebuttal

[timor]

Quite a while ago, I asked anybody here to answer the contradictions listed here: http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/short.html

I will now evaluate Atown's response. His answers can be found here: http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/joseph.html

Quote[/b] ]Who was Joseph's father?

1. Luke gives the genealogy of Mary’s side of the family and Matthew gives the genealogy of Joseph’s side.

That doesn't explain anything. Luke still says that Jesus' father, Joseph, was the son of Jacob, while Matthew says that Jesus' father, Joseph (lest there be any confusion as to which Joseph we're talking about), is the son of Heli.

Quote[/b] ]Was John the Baptist Elijah?

2. Malachi 4: 5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD. Jesus made many references to Elijah and others but never said “John the Baptist was Elijah” and in Malachi it’s referring to John the Baptists ministry

John 1:21 still directly contradicts Matthew 17:12-13, unless you want to suggest that the disciples "understood" incorrectly, in which case this would be a very poor case of diction on Matthew's part.

Quote[/b] ]Was Abraham justified by faith or by works?

3. James 2: 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

That's like answering a question with a question. Romans 4:2 implies that works had nothing to do with it.

Quote[/b] ]In whose name are we to be baptized?

4. Technically their all the same, because of the trinity.

Eh, I'll give that one to you, only because I don't care enough to argue over semantics.

Quote[/b] ]Did Jesus baptize anyone?

5. Jesus didt baptize on that particular trip.

I can't tell if you were trying to say "did" or "didn't", bwahaha...clever

Anyways, I think this is a pretty direct contradiction.

Quote[/b] ]Did Jesus tell his apostles to go barefoot and without a staff?

6. This one took me a while but, I checked and apparently there were 2 different trips that occurred, though the lesson was basically the same: learn to lean on God for everything.

Proof please.

Quote[/b] ]Did David sin?

7. 1 Kg.15:5

"David did that which was right in the eyes of the Lord, and turned not aside from anything that he commanded him all the days of his life, save only in the matter of Uriah the Hittite." Using their own verse it says David sinned…

Conceded. This list is by no means perfect, hehe.

Edit --> Woops, accidently sent it. The rest will be on the way.

 

[Mr.Bill]

Whoa..I remember you! It has been quite a while...

 

[timor]

Quote[/b] ]Was John the Baptist Elijah?

8. Ummmm why is this here twice?

See above

Quote[/b] ]Has anyone ever ascended into heaven?

9. John 3:10-15 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

People need to read ALL of the verse and its entire context.

Even in "its entire context", its still a contradiction. Elaborate.

Quote[/b] ]Is salvation by faith alone?

10. A man can believe in God but if he still sins he will not go to heaven because sin separates us from God. So we as Christians must do as God has commanded and believe in Him and to believe in him would be considered an action and action=works. As James 2: 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

I don't feel like debating this one (though I wouldn't mind seeing some Christians go at it..any Catholics here? bwahah)

Quote[/b] ]Who bought the Potter's field?

11. This one took me a while but, considering there were 4 different people writing basically about the same thing in their own ways there would have to be an error of some sort, now you’re probably saying: which version is the right one?? Well they all have the same lesson in mind therfor they are all equal.

But of course, we already knew that in your mind, the Bible was inerrant. Let's see the logic. I had a problem with this even when I was a Christian, and eventually just had to push it to the back of my mind. I won't allow you to do that. Please explain these verses, which describe two very different occurances.

Quote[/b] ]When did the cursed fig tree die?

12. I think that the tree whither a bit then had fully whitherd away when they had returned.

Again, this isn't about what you think, its about what justification you have for thinking it. It's very easy for you to rationalize it away in your mind, but you must understand that it will not convince me.

Quote[/b] ]Was Jesus the first to rise from the dead?

13. Acts 26:23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, AND should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles. Jesus was not the first man to rise from the grave but he was the FIRST to rise from the dead and be a way for people to come to the Father.

That would be fine if that's what Acts 26:23 says. Unfortunately, it says what you quoted. It says nothing about being a way for the people to the Father. Please do not add to the verses to make them work.

Quote[/b] ]Did everyone (except for Noah and his family) die in the flood?

14. Genesis 6:4 was written before the flood…

I'll give this one to you. I know nothing about these verses.

Quote[/b] ]When was Jesus crucified?

15. Johns version was referring to the preparation of the meal before the Sabbath plus its roman time zone so it was 6am.

If you can give adequate evidence to support this view, I will give this one to you as well. However, I must insist that I see the proof for it.

Quote[/b] ]16. John 5: 32 There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnessed of me is true. Here Jesus is talking about the witness of God and since Jesus is technically God his witness is true but he did kind of a circle.

I fail to see what the verse you cited has to do with the two cited by SAB. Please, once again, SHOW ME THE SYLLOGISM!

Quote[/b] ]How did Judas die?

17. Hmm till now I always thought Judas threw the money left, came back picked it up then hung himself. However whether Judas physically paid for it or the Pharisees, it was done with Judas’ money.

Just like the verses about the potter's field, with which these are assocatied, they are two totally different descriptions of the events of Judas' death. Your explanation is unsatisfactory.

Quote[/b] ]What is the correct new moon sacrifice?

18. Ezekiel is actually talking about the prince of that time and his specified sacrifice.

Ok.

Quote[/b] ]Has there ever been a righteous, perfect, or just person?



19. Back then the word perfect meant to be “complete” and it was set as a righteous as morally right and good.

Ignoring your arbitrary definition of "perfect", there are still verses that directly contradict (Rom.3:10, 2 Pt.2:7-8). You have answered (or at least attempted to) only a very small part of this rather large collection of contradicting verses.

Quote[/b] ]Was Rahab saved by faith or by works?

20. James 2: 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

I will give this one to you, because unlike the previous one similar to this, neither of these verses champion the victory of faith or works while also denying the influence of the other.

Quote[/b] ]
Does God repent?

21. For the times the Bible says he does not repent those were in situations where God didt want to repent and was justified by doing so. The other times he repented so what? Different times call for different actions

............do I really need to explain why you're wrong with this one?

Quote[/b] ]Do Christians sin?

22. Well DOH! All Christians sin yet we are continually made pure by the blood of Jesus Christ who died for ALL of our sins past present future.

That's not what John says! Please, try again.

Final part in just a bit...

 

[timor]

Quote[/b] ]Has God ever tempted anyone?

23. Again because of the few words in the Hebrew language tempt ALSO means to test, or try, or prove us, which he will do of course. Now in for the Lords prayer that’s simple more or less its saying lead us OUT of temptation.

I disagree, but I've seen whole debates on just these verses, so I'll let this one slide. Aren't I kind?

Quote[/b] ]Who tempted David to number the people?

24. Taking a census was not a wrong thing to do per se. God Himself had previously ordered Moses to make 2 censuses. However in this case Satan, seized upon the growing pride of David’s heart to incite him into making a census so the king might have a ground for boasting. God the controller of all things allowed the deed to be done so as to bring david to a place of humility and reality (v. 10). God and Satan are often involved in the same events but for different causes (cf. Job) God so that the believer might be instructed and grow, but Satan to discredit the believer and therefore, God himself.

Thanks for once again ignoring the verses at hand. Samuel says God did the tempting, Chronicles says Satan. Please try again.

Quote[/b] ]Can God be tempted?

25. Now for Dt.6:16 Mt.4:7, Lk.4:12 Acts 15:10 those are all warnings NOT to tempt God and in Malachi its talking about the wicked who attempted to tempt God.

Conceded.

Quote[/b] ]Was it OK to touch the risen Jesus?

26. Touch me not is a present imperative forbidding the continuation of an action already begun. “stop clinging to me” is a helpful paraphrase. Compare with verse 27 where one week later we are told He encouraged Thomas to touch him. I am not yet ascended: “do not worry I am not leaving immediately.”

Oh! But lets look at it in context!

20:14
And when she had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus.
20:15
Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away.
20:16
Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.
Contradiction
Was it OK to touch
the risen Jesus? Women
20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

None of the preceding verses state, implicitly or explicitly, that Mary had touched Jesus. There is no reason to believe, despite the present imperative, that Jesus was being groped at this point.

Going further, if I were to use the present imperative in the positive and say "Touch me", that would not imply that you are already touching me, but that I wish you to touch me at the present moment.

A noble attempt, but it fails.

Quote[/b] ]Is there an unforgivable sin?

27. Basically when they blaspheme against the Holy Spirit that is purely rejecting Jesus AND His salvation so really he is stuck in hell forever making it unforgivable since its to late when your in hell.

I'm not so sure, but I don't feel like debating this one, as this is another epic debate.

Quote[/b] ]Did the men with Paul hear a voice?

28. 9:7 could be saying that the witness heard Sauls voice but did not see anyone to whom Saul was talking to.

Then why such a vague "a" rather than "his"? Very poor, ambiguous, and confusing diction. Explanation rejected.

Quote[/b] ]Are we punished for the sins of others?

29. No WE are not punished for others sins however during that time and era those people were, and also if u noticed the verses if read the before and after verses implied on certain groups and/or persons.

I do not accept this answer, but I think this would also be one for a seperate discussion. Plus I'm tired and I have Latin and Calculus homework to do

 

[timor]

I am remembered! I have left a legacy!

 

[Dark Virtue]

May I make a suggestion?

From one who has travelled the same road, before you post Bible contradictions, I would go here: http://www.tektonics.org/

Look up the verses in question and read them against the apologetics rebuttal. If they still stand, you have a good contradiction.

Many contradictions are weak, this is a good way to sort them out.

Marcy, you would like that site.

 

[timor]

DV, thanks for your suggestion. I have quite an arsenal of biblical contradictions sitting in a word pad file (more tons of explosive than were recently stolen in Iraq! haha). This, however, is an easily accesible list that I offered to anybody quite a few months ago. Biblical contradictions really aren't my forte, nor are they that interesting to me. Personally, I believe that the "god" concept falls with or without a holy text, so contradictions are just a little but of side fun

 

[TheJfreak]

Its not always what john says and you guys are so appinated you guys have a blocked vision. If Jesus kicked you in the butt you wouldnt notice you would say prove it was Jesus or something stupid

 

[Dark Virtue]

What do you mean when you say, "it's not always what John says"?

 

[kraniac]

Actually, Genesis 6:4, and the rest of the Pentateuch (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deutoronomy) was not written before the Flood. Job is the oldest book of the Bible, written c. 5500 B.C., around the time of the Sumerian Empire. The Pentateuch was written by Moses, except the last bits of Deutoronomy, which were finished by Joshua, since Moses died.

The Bible is not arranged in direct chronological order; it is arranged by type of book:
[Old Testament]
Books of Law
Books of History
Books of Poetry
Books of the Major Prophets
Books of the Minor Prophets
[New Testament]
Gospels
Book of History
Epistles (subdivided into other groups)
Book of Prophecy

Chronological order comes secondary to these divisions.

 

[Marcylene]

Thank you for thinking of me

 I hope  

 

[Dark Virtue]

It's right up your alley!

 

[timor]

Quote[/b] (TheJfreak @ Oct. 28 2004,8:45)]Its not always what john says and you guys are so appinated you guys have a blocked vision. If Jesus kicked you in the butt you wouldnt notice you would say prove it was Jesus or something stupid

Yes, I am so close-minded that I actually conceded a few to Atown.

*sigh*

Look, some of us here are capable of civilized discussion and debate (i.e. Atown). All other (i.e. YOU), please stay out of this thread.