Is the BIBLE true? and what does this board think?

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This is Copy and Pasted from a post I did that didnt get answered, so Maybe it could get answered here, Leo had just got done saying that Paul was wrong and that a person can achieve Perfection(sinlessness)

Paul was wrong, for all have not sinned, intersting. A good old passage in the bible brings me to 1 John, "for if anyone says he is without sin he is a LIER and the truth is not in him" that is like chapter 2 or 3, I think 2

  You show me someone who says they are without sin, or are not a sinner, and I will show you someone who has a PRIDE issue, and thus, is sinning.

   I feel we should establish some ground rules, CCGR does not want us character assasinating, so let us create a standard for this forum. Does this forum, beleive the bible is true, or does it not? I would like to see CCGR`s responds, because maybe I am assuming something that is not true, but I am continuing on as though this forum, and its moderators concider the bible as being TRUE, and that it is a MAJOR issue.(as stated on the main page, agree on the majors, tolorate the minors..... )

   Would you like to throw out the New Testament? Paul wrote almost all of the new testament, to say "Paul was plainly wrong" shows that the bible is not a God ordained book, but just another of many books written by Godly men to explain what God wants for us. In your opinion the bible has as much weight as some of your own writting, or your own writting might actually be MORE accurate than our bible.

    I would say anyone who says the bible is flawwed, and that they can "correct it" is a cult leader. Like Mormons and Jehova witnesses, and should be treated like a cult leader. Should be rebuked and known threwout the board that it is that way.

    CCGR, you have read many posts here, and if  Leo Volont posts are "christian" or if they are "Cultish" would be your decision, and we would respect the authority of this board.

     I think I have presented a pretty good explanation as to why I feel it is cultish. He simply believes the bible to be "another book"
 
Unfortunately the Sadducees established the erronious concept of FREE WILL that many christians ascribe to in this day, but if you investigate all the other things they also believed you will quickly see they were NOT SPIRITUAL.
Now then to put to rest this insane business a man can NOT be sin free.
Jesus said to go and sin no more to a woman and a man.
So then under the rules of Paul how can i be made sin free and not be a liar.
IT IS SO MUCH AN EASY THING:when i have been prefected and translated it is the responsibility of THE HOLY GHOST TO GO TO ALL BEFORE me AND ENTER IT INTO THEIR MINDS(SOULS):HERE COMES A MAN WHO NO LONGER HAS SIN IN HIM. AMEN AMEN AMEN
ANd so i can not make myself to be a liar.
i am nothing0
JESUS IS THE LORD1PRAISE THE LORD1THE LORD YESHUA. AMEN
nice question.
 
It is interesting talking about Paul and John in regards to "sinlessness". In the book of Acts we have the story of Paul going before the High Priest and saying that in his entire life he had nothing to be ashamed of before God. He was claiming sinlessness. The same guy who said that all have sinned and are unworthy, blah blah blah. Now, when you quote John saying that "anyone who says they haven't sinned is a liar" -- well, ... there is only one person in the Universe who has ever hated Paul more than myself, and that is John, The Disciple Jesus Loved. John was referring to Paul. John made many arguments to refute Paul -- the letters of John are explicit in their linking righteousness and works to true belief. I once heard a theory that John used numerology in his Revelations in order to show Paul to be the Antichrist -- the "666" thing was Paul's number.

As to Sinlessness. Perhaps the mildest heresy in the Catholic Church is Pelagianism, if I have it spelled right. An old man Pelagius who had outlived his carnality wondered why everyone thought it so difficult to refrain from sin. At his stage in life he simply saw it as an easy matter of will. Just don't sin! Now, when you consider his argument, you must be extremely stubborn in your orthodoxy -- jaded by it in a mean way -- to insist that it is somehow necessary to uphold Christian Doctrine that everyone HAS TO Sin. We don't HAVE TO Sin. You can look at certain cases in history. Anne Catherine Emmerich never developed a sex drive. She never lied. Always honored her parents. Didn't covet. So without pushing for an extremely scrupulous interpretation of what is a sin, we can say that she lived her entire life sinlessly. We have Saint Dominic. On his deathbed he whispered that he had remained chaste his entire life, but hadn't wanted to say so before as not to seem proud. Well, he never stole anything either. This is also a man who had lived an entire life without a sin.

So, anyway, I can see that a True Religion may teach that Sin may be repented and atoned for -- that Sin is not necessarily to be punished by hell. However, it borders on the Satanic for a Religion to support as a necessary Doctrine that everyone must be a sinner. What good can possibly come from such a doctrine except to encourage people in their worst proclivities -- to offer them an excuse to offend God. Pelagius should have been given a ticker tape parade! Use your Will Power and you will find that sin is not as inevitable as you would like them to be.
 
I hold the Bible ina high regard, many of us on this board do. it's not a requirement to post here as long as there is mutual respect for eachother. if we kick people off for not agreeing, how are we to sow belief seeds?

granted there are many great people who walked this earth, but one was sinless. sexless and sinless are different. These people never lied? That's the easiest commandment to break IMO. Let me be the first to confess to everyone one that I have sinned lots of times.
 
All your saints and even the Apostles sinned.

Paul lived a life of no regrets. that is totally true, when he was a Pharisee he lived as zealously as he could, doing what he was taught to be right and upholding the law and protecting it for all its worth, not being educated in Christ yet. Then when he is converted, he lives just as zealously for Christ. the funny thing is Pual brought alot of orginized religion to the Christian church, because of his levitical backround. All the other apostles where fishermen, or a taxcollector. they did not know how to establish a church with out all the cinks in it, or how to fix them when they arose. Yes they had the Holy spirit but that does not mean that they were perfect.

Yes all have sinned its true, you are born of Adams seed you have sinned. Does this mean a baby will go to hell? maybe, leave that to God to decide though. Those saints can say i never stole, or covetted, or had sex. there are many like that, that does not mean they did not lie, or cheat. Sin is sin, and its all the same to God, unless you reject Him totally.
 
I don't believe babies go to hell

Do babies go to heaven or hell when they die?

Although the scriptures do not specifically answer this question, there are implicit references to help with the answer. God told Jeremiah that he knew him from the womb, but the most convincing argument is in 2 Samuel.

King David has just completed his fasting after God told him that his son from Bathsheba would die. David fasted in prayer that God would not take his son. When the child died, David ended his fast. He was criticized and responded with the verse in 2 Samuel 12:23:

"But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I SHALL GO TO HIM, but he shall not return to me."

Clearly, from the Psalms, David did not expect to go to hell. He spoke often about his salvation being in the Lord. Consequently, since David trusted in his salvation and said that he shall go to his son, he expected his son to receive the same salvation. God did not contradict or counter this belief, either directly or through the prophets.


http://www.raptureready.com/faq/faq347.html
 
Proper Herminutics needs to be applied to the verse. It is not saying that David will see his child in heaven, but that he will join him in the grave one day.


Not saying that they do not or do go to heaven, just there is no clear spot in spricture where it says that they do, or do not.
 
leo, would you be so kind as to offer up the exact Scripture in The Acts to which you refer.
For i have found you do not ever yet know what you are talking about!
So to be fair to all before i once again have to discount you, give me your perceived PROOF.
And when i think it i care to i will explain EXACTLY what the number 666 means.
it is a very simple thing....no need to have a understanding of math.
i am nothing0.
JESUS IS THE LORD1PRAISE THE LORD1THE LORD YESHUA. AMEN
 
IN THE TIME BEFORE JESUS REMOVED PERGATORY AND ABRAHAMS BOSOM TO HEAVEN, the willing spirits in BABIES WENT TO PERGATORY OR ABRAHAMS BOSOM.
Those without willing spirits went to hell.
BUT IN ALL CASES THE FLESH OF THE BABIES SLEEPS IN THE EARTH. AMEN
And since Jesus removed both PERGATORY AND ABRAHAM'S BOSOM to heaven, ALL THE WILLING spirits OF BABIES go to heaven AND THOSE  UNWILLING spirits of BABIES GO TO HELL. AMEN
And still in bothe cases, the flesh is asleep in the earth. amen
i am nothing0.
JESUS IS THE LORD1PRAISE THE LORD1THE LORD YESHUA. AMEN
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (LionOfJudah @ Oct. 25 2003,8:50)]All your saints and even the Apostles sinned.

Paul lived a life of no regrets. that is totally true, when he was a Pharisee he lived as zealously as he could, doing what he was taught to be right and upholding the law and protecting it for all its worth, not being educated in Christ yet. Then when he is converted, he lives just as zealously for Christ. the funny thing is Pual brought alot of orginized religion to the Christian church, because of his levitical backround. All the other apostles where fishermen, or a taxcollector. they did not know how to establish a church with out all the cinks in it, or how to fix them when they arose. Yes they had the Holy spirit but that does not mean that they were perfect.

Yes all have sinned its true, you are born of Adams seed you have sinned. Does this mean a baby will go to hell? maybe, leave that to God to decide though.  Those saints can say i never stole, or covetted, or had sex. there are many like that, that does not mean they did not lie, or cheat. Sin is sin, and its all the same to God, unless you reject Him totally.
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Dear Lion,

Every unabashed Sinner lives a life of no regrets before God. They might as well hang a sign over Hell that says "We Have Lived with No Regret before God"

You are preaching the Antichrist when you praise Sin, and insult the Saints. Just back up an inch and take the time to think what purpose you could possibly be serving by justifying Paul's murderings as good zealous fun, while casting aspersions against The Saints who have only tried to hold themselves to the Highest Standards of Christian Conduct?
 
The unabashedness of all sinners with unwilling spirits will become very abashed the moment they are cast into a lake of fire. amen
i who am nothing0 am the abash man. amen amen amen
JESUS IS THE LORD1PRAISE THE LORD1THE LORD YESHUA. AMEN
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (adelpit346 @ Oct. 25 2003,4:13)]leo, would you be so kind as to offer up the exact Scripture in The Acts to which you refer.
For i have found you do not ever yet know what you are talking about!
So to be fair to all before i once again have to discount you, give me your perceived PROOF.
And when i think it i care to i will explain EXACTLY what the number 666 means.
it is a very simple thing....no need to have a understanding of math.
i am nothing0.
JESUS IS THE LORD1PRAISE THE LORD1THE LORD YESHUA. AMEN
Click to expand...
Acts 23

Facinating Chapter. We have Paul give us a 'different' account of his Conversion then from Chapter 8 or 9. In his revised version of the Story we find that there were no witnesses to The Voice. So, we are left with only Paul's word. It is a wonder anyone should believe him, when in every other page of his Epistles he is again forced to deny that he is a liar. For all of Christ's Enemies and for all that they accused Christ of, no one called him a Liar. But Paul seems to have just attracted that very insult and in huge quantity.

Yes, then the rest of Acts 23 goes over his examination by the Jewish High Council and interview with the High Priest.

Which brings us to you and your ignorance of Scripture. If you have not read the Bible, then what are you here spouting about. And I might as well address this to the rest of you -- we might expect of each other a certain familiarity with the Scriptures, or you should take a break from writing posts and spend the time reading. Now, if you want to ask for Chapter and Verse, then say that you would like to "brush up" on the section. But Adelpit, here, actually accuses me of fabricating a passage from Acts and asks me to prove that a section of the Bible I refer to actually exists! Five minutes could have saved him the trouble of offering me a gratuitous insult. In another Century I would have thrown a gauntlet in his face and run him through with a sword for even a shadow of half that impudence.
 
For any man other than Jesus Christ to claim they are sinless is hogwash. I don't think anyone here has preached sin, but rather grace.

To say you have never sinned is a lie. It smells like smoke and comes right from the pit of hell.

It only takes one lie to be a liar, one theft to be a thief, one lustful thought to commit adultery...and on and on.
 
I'd like to know how you can prove Jesus was sinless, especially with 2/3rds of his life missing from the Bible, and also with records of him lying... I'll get to those passages, so don't even mention them in your answer. Just tell me how you can prove that Jesus was sinless.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Watcher @ Oct. 25 2003,5:33)]For any man other than Jesus Christ to claim they are sinless is hogwash. I don't think anyone here has preached sin, but rather grace.

To say you have never sinned is a lie. It smells like smoke and comes right from the pit of hell.

It only takes one lie to be a liar, one theft to be a thief, one lustful thought to commit adultery...and on and on.
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Well, this is what Paul claimed (Acts 23), and they Canonized Paul.

No, it is not my position that anybody is 'claiming' to be sinless -- all of the greatest Saints had such a profound humility that they were more likely to 'claim' to be the worst sinners then to claim to be sinless. However, the objective observer could not discover any of these 'sins' -- and we should not pretend that monasteries and convents are not hot beds of spiritual jealousy, pride and envy, so, no 'Saint' would be able to entertain even the smallest of fledgling sins without having been loudly exposed to the World.

Anyway, let me here expand my contention -- first, that only Saints of the First Magnitude have the Holy Spirit, and , second, that this possession of the Holy Spirit makes one very looth to Sin. I won't positively assert that no Saint of the First Magnitude ever defied the Holy Spirit within him by sinning, but I think it would be very unlikely.

Now, it is only in keeping with the Protestant's tendency to renounce all the strengths and virtues embodied in True Christianity when they insist on the necessity of sinfulness. Christ enjoined us "to be perfect even as The Father in Heaven is Perfect". This does not mesh well with Paul's Easy "Faith Only" Salvation, and so it, as well as all of Christ's Doctrines for Righteousness and the Eucharist, are ignored. Not a good thing.
 
Jesus did not commit sin (1 Peter 2:21-23). Jesus was tempted just like us, but he did not sin (Hebrews 4:14,15; Matthew 4:1-11).

(1 Pet. 2:21-23) For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps:

"Who committed no sin, Nor was deceit found in His mouth";

who, when He was reviled, did not revile in return; when He suffered, He did not threaten, but committed  Himself to Him who judges righteously.

(Hebrews 4:14,15) Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.

(Matthew 4:1-11) Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. And when He had fasted 40 days and 40 nights, afterward He was hungry. Now when the tempter came to Him, He said,

"If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread."

But He answered and said, "It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by the every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.'"

Then the devil took Him up into the holy city, set Him on the pinnacle of the temple, and said to Him,

"If you are the Son of God throw Yourself down. For it is written: 'He shall give His angels charge over you,' and, 'In their hands they shall bear you up, lest you dash your foot against a stone.'"

Jesus said to him, "It is written again, 'You shall not tempt the Lord your God.'"

Again, the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. And he said to Him,

"All these things I will give you if you will fall down and worship me."

Then Jesus said to him, "Away with you, Satan! For it is written, 'You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve.'"

Then the devil left Him, and behold, angels came and ministered to Him.
 
That does nothing. You're trusting the writers of the book, who wanted to portray him as sinless, to say that he was sinless. Your only source for information on Jesus is the Bible. The Bible depends on the sinlessness of Jesus for its validity. It is impossible to prove that Jesus was sinless - the only route to go is a circle.
 
Timor most of your Jesus is lying is bad herminutics at the best, at least the ones where you copied and pasted where. go a head and post where you think JEsus was lying, and lets go from there.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (timor @ Oct. 25 2003,10:29)]That does nothing. You're trusting the writers of the book, who wanted to portray him as sinless, to say that he was sinless. Your only source for information on Jesus is the Bible. The Bible depends on the sinlessness of Jesus for its validity. It is impossible to prove that Jesus was sinless - the only route to go is a circle.
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Timor,

The Bible is not the only source of Information concerning Jesus. Jesus is The Christ. All of the Catholic Mystics, Seers, Visionaries and Saints can give you information either about Christ directly, or His Heaven, or His Judgment, or His Church.

Now, I can see that you would play that "Bible Only" thing for the Prots, but you yourself know the difference.
 
OK then, for the Prots - It doesn't even matter whether I can prove he ever lied in the Bible. The burden is on you to prove that Jesus was sinless. If you're honest with yourself, you really can't prove 100% that Jesus was sinless - you can only trust, and hope, and have faith.

And Leo, Catholic Seers, Visionaries, and Saints that are alive today don't count - I mean, I suppose if some saint were to come to me in spirit and tell me about the happenings up in Heaven and tell me that Jesus was sinless, I guess I'd have no choice but to believe him and convert. But if you're talking about Catholics nowadays telling me about their spooky visions...that's not gonna cut it.
 
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