I've been doing a bit of research lately about Islam, and I was wondering if this website is a good source of information. Specifically this.
Islam
- Thread starter tjguitarz
- Start date
Durruck
Pirate!
I don't know, for certain. I understand very little about Islam and it's roots, but had understood that it basically lead back to Abraham - that Ismael was the firstborn, but to a maidservant. Eventually when Isaac was born, Ishmael and his mother were sent away, but God still promised to make that part of Abraham's family grow.
Which makes all of the problems in the Middle East a family feud. The Koran (Quran) has undergone as many changes and variations as our Bible has. My understanding is also that Islam doesn't fail to acknowledge Christ completely - the general view is that Jesus of Nazarath was accepted as a prophet, but nothing more.
And that's about the end of what I've figured out. Please forgive errors or omissions. It's late and I can't think clearly.
Which makes all of the problems in the Middle East a family feud. The Koran (Quran) has undergone as many changes and variations as our Bible has. My understanding is also that Islam doesn't fail to acknowledge Christ completely - the general view is that Jesus of Nazarath was accepted as a prophet, but nothing more.
And that's about the end of what I've figured out. Please forgive errors or omissions. It's late and I can't think clearly.
vibrokatana
New Member
The most startling difference is that muhammed declared that Islam should be spread by the sword (ie through conquest) while Christianity should be through love and kindness.
If you look at the media today people as scared out of their minds to publish anything that puts Islam in a bad light because they fear that someone will exact revenge. Meanwhile people bash Christians whenever they want because they know we don't strike back.
If you look at the media today people as scared out of their minds to publish anything that puts Islam in a bad light because they fear that someone will exact revenge. Meanwhile people bash Christians whenever they want because they know we don't strike back.
dorkelf
Active Member
The scholarly article by Dr. Fishbein which is extensively quoted in your second link (but curiously not cited appropriately) is a genuine, published article (National Interest; Winter2001/2002 Issue 66, p47) that can be easily found on Academic Search Premier. So the article BEHIND the article you linked seems entirely legitimate, and furthermore it is absolutely fascinating isn't it? I just wish the Koinonia website cited the article appropriately, especially considering how much of it they quoted. Just FYI, the Koinonia Institute is linked with the Berean Church, and as such they are very very literal when it comes to the interpretation of scripture. Again, this connection SHOULD be indicated openly on their website, so that their religious affiliations and biases would be clear to those who visit and read these articles.
(BTW I have downloaded Dr. Fishbein's article in PDF form - pm me with your email address if you'd like me to send it to you. By doing so you agree that the article is to be used for educational purposes only by yourself, and not distributed to any other parties for any reason.)
Paul
Last edited:
Arkanjel
New Member
Ive read and listened to many, many of Khouse's articles and audio teachings. Chuck Missler has an extensive background. If I was to trust any source aside from the Bible itself it would be Khouse. The main thing Chuck Missler has always said, is be like the Bereans, check him against the scriptures. He has a lot of connections in the geo-political arena which gives him some different insights into what is going on. As far as taking the Bible literally, are we supposed to take it any other way, other than where its expressly stated?
NOW YOU'VE DONE IT! YOU'VE STARTED ANOTHER GERBIL RANT-PAGE! =p
Arrrgh, I could write for hours on Islam (even though I don't want to T_T Gerbil... compulsion... disorder.) First let me say that there are some good things about Islam. Care for the poor is one of their "Pillars". Many (more secular) Muslims read "Qur'an" verses that call for killing as "spiritual" not physical, but, when you get into the actual doctrine, as evidenced by Mohammed's life itself, that just isn't the truth. If Christ is our example of how to live he never went on the warpath, but, Mohammed did, and it was bloody. Much is said about his sparing of the people of Mecca, but, that was an exception not the rule of his way. They were his friends who had actually rejected him earlier.
Correct, but, I'll be more specific. Unlike the Bible (which was written by many people, but, inspired and put together by God) the Koran was solely Mohammed's words. Meaning it all came from one earthly source. There are, however, many different denominations of Islam with different interpretations and beliefs which give you the same confusion as the Christian denominations have. Much of the split resulted from the fact Mohammed left no clear successor.
As far as Christ goes I have always found this verse comparison to be the most illuminating to the relationship between Christians and Muslims. Actually I thought there was a even better Koran verse (sura), but, I cannot find it. The below verses are from here http://quod.lib.umich.edu/k/koran/ ,but ,it was just a quick google. I put in son and Allah as search words for this result.
Koran:
[4.171] O followers of the Book! do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak (lies) against Allah, but (speak) the truth; the Messiah, Isa son of Marium is only an apostle of Allah and His Word which He communicated to Marium and a spirit from Him; believe therefore in Allah and His apostles, and say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one God; far be It from His glory that He should have a son, whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His, and Allah is sufficient for a Protector.
Bible:
1John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father...
I realize that any non-Christian might be defined as "anti-Christ", but, thats not my point. Originally Mohammed was teaching to do like the people of the book(Jews/Christians), but, something must have ticked him off because that changed. Islam was conceived to correct the Jews and Christians who where given the word of God, but, profaned it. Unlike Christianity that is the fulfillment of Judaism therefore all that came before was correct. My point is I don't know of any other religion that SPECIFICALLY names another religion and was created to SPECIFICALLY to correct that religion's mistakes. This is why Christians/Jews will never have lasting peace with them.
Also while I'm at it...
4.157 And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the apostle of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.
I've gotten a lot of info in the past from watching the Zola Levett show. Zola died a while back though (got promoted as he said it) so the show's future is up in the air. Still some of the old shows are here http://www.levitt.tv/#archives. I trust and HIGHLY recommend watching the ones where Zola interviewed some ex-Muslims who became Christians. (I don't know about your site so cannot say). I've also read http://www.amazon.com/Unveiling-Isl...6463268?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1189088230&sr=1-1 which I like (and i've seen Caner speaking at a church on tv too which I liked). Trying to get around to reading more of the actual Koran myself, that and more about Mohammed's life itself... Mein Kampf too (and no I am not kidding).
Other things I've picked up some of which you may want to validate...
1.Mohammed originally thought his visions (yes he had episodes not unlike a epileptic) were given to him by the devil until his wife convinced him otherwise.
2.Mohammed consummated a marriage to a 9 year old (Aisha).
3.Mohammed received special compensation from Allah to marry more wives than the rule he himself made allowed.
4.The yellow star worn by the Jews was conceived of during the Ottoman rule not the Nazi's.
5.Islamic pictures often feature the moon. This is because when Mohammed took Mecca he destroyed all the idols they had except a black stone which was reported to have fallen from the sky and was used in the worship of a Moon Goddess. The same stone is now part of the wall of Ka'bah in Mecca.
6.There is a Islamic concept of allowing lying to non-Muslims which makes any peace treaty worthless. You can lie to your wife too
7.Muslim teachings in the Koran forbade the teaching of women and say their word is half the value of a man. A quick Google http://womensassistance.com/ interesting.
8.Me from elsewhere regarding why giving your life is opposite in Christian/Muslim faiths
9.The general policy from Muslim history seems to be of allowing non-Muslims to live as long as they are submissive to them. Basically Sharia law prohibits the expansion of Christianity (proselytizing is illegal along with building new churches). Google "Pact of Umar" for a idea of Sharia law. I've always though of this as a parallel to what Lincoln wanted to do with slavery which is ban it from any new state (thus no expansion) and then work for getting it banned in the old states legally. Of course the south wouldn't go along with that because that which cannot grow will die and they knew it.
...And just in case you think this Muslim kill the infidel thing is new. We now have a Muslim senator who took his oath of office with his hand on a Koran owned by Thomas Jefferson saying how "visionary" Jefferson was to have one. Well http://www.usvetdsp.com/jan07/jeff_quran.htm I don't vouch for this site but I DO VOUCH FOR THE FACTS ON THIS PAGE HAVING LEARNED IT ELSEWHERE AND RECOMMEND EVERYONE READING IT. Can you say "revisionist history"?
Why didn't we have problems for so long then?
Be aware I only looked up all the web pages to get specifics, I already knew the general facts from other sources. Believe me I could go on ESPECIALLY with facts about Israel and their relationship with Islam. I read this a while back and it was quite interesting http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_mandate_grand_mufti.php . I've also seen live footage of him shaking Hitler's hand...joy...not...
Hope I helped
.
OOOh, OOOh I almost forgot Farfour! Shame Gerbil How could you do that! http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,287423,00.html
Arrrgh, I could write for hours on Islam (even though I don't want to T_T Gerbil... compulsion... disorder.) First let me say that there are some good things about Islam. Care for the poor is one of their "Pillars". Many (more secular) Muslims read "Qur'an" verses that call for killing as "spiritual" not physical, but, when you get into the actual doctrine, as evidenced by Mohammed's life itself, that just isn't the truth. If Christ is our example of how to live he never went on the warpath, but, Mohammed did, and it was bloody. Much is said about his sparing of the people of Mecca, but, that was an exception not the rule of his way. They were his friends who had actually rejected him earlier.
Correct, but, I'll be more specific. Unlike the Bible (which was written by many people, but, inspired and put together by God) the Koran was solely Mohammed's words. Meaning it all came from one earthly source. There are, however, many different denominations of Islam with different interpretations and beliefs which give you the same confusion as the Christian denominations have. Much of the split resulted from the fact Mohammed left no clear successor.
Lots of Muslims also don't recognize the Koran written in any other language than the original Arabic as being the "Koran" either. (quick google http://lexicorient.com/e.o/koran.htm ). In other words they read it in it's original language. You also have to consider the "Hadith" which is the companion to the Koran. In the Koran it says that whatever the prophet says is the truth. The Hadith is the collected sayings of the prophet as verified by multiple sources. So if you believe those sources are accurate you must believe the Hadith too.
As far as Christ goes I have always found this verse comparison to be the most illuminating to the relationship between Christians and Muslims. Actually I thought there was a even better Koran verse (sura), but, I cannot find it. The below verses are from here http://quod.lib.umich.edu/k/koran/ ,but ,it was just a quick google. I put in son and Allah as search words for this result.
Koran:
[4.171] O followers of the Book! do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak (lies) against Allah, but (speak) the truth; the Messiah, Isa son of Marium is only an apostle of Allah and His Word which He communicated to Marium and a spirit from Him; believe therefore in Allah and His apostles, and say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one God; far be It from His glory that He should have a son, whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His, and Allah is sufficient for a Protector.
Bible:
1John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father...
I realize that any non-Christian might be defined as "anti-Christ", but, thats not my point. Originally Mohammed was teaching to do like the people of the book(Jews/Christians), but, something must have ticked him off because that changed. Islam was conceived to correct the Jews and Christians who where given the word of God, but, profaned it. Unlike Christianity that is the fulfillment of Judaism therefore all that came before was correct. My point is I don't know of any other religion that SPECIFICALLY names another religion and was created to SPECIFICALLY to correct that religion's mistakes. This is why Christians/Jews will never have lasting peace with them.
Also while I'm at it...
4.157 And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the apostle of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.
I've gotten a lot of info in the past from watching the Zola Levett show. Zola died a while back though (got promoted as he said it) so the show's future is up in the air. Still some of the old shows are here http://www.levitt.tv/#archives. I trust and HIGHLY recommend watching the ones where Zola interviewed some ex-Muslims who became Christians. (I don't know about your site so cannot say). I've also read http://www.amazon.com/Unveiling-Isl...6463268?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1189088230&sr=1-1 which I like (and i've seen Caner speaking at a church on tv too which I liked). Trying to get around to reading more of the actual Koran myself, that and more about Mohammed's life itself... Mein Kampf too (and no I am not kidding).
Other things I've picked up some of which you may want to validate...
1.Mohammed originally thought his visions (yes he had episodes not unlike a epileptic) were given to him by the devil until his wife convinced him otherwise.
2.Mohammed consummated a marriage to a 9 year old (Aisha).
3.Mohammed received special compensation from Allah to marry more wives than the rule he himself made allowed.
4.The yellow star worn by the Jews was conceived of during the Ottoman rule not the Nazi's.
5.Islamic pictures often feature the moon. This is because when Mohammed took Mecca he destroyed all the idols they had except a black stone which was reported to have fallen from the sky and was used in the worship of a Moon Goddess. The same stone is now part of the wall of Ka'bah in Mecca.
6.There is a Islamic concept of allowing lying to non-Muslims which makes any peace treaty worthless. You can lie to your wife too
Not to misrepresnt it there are more Koran suras that forbid it in other situations.
7.Muslim teachings in the Koran forbade the teaching of women and say their word is half the value of a man. A quick Google http://womensassistance.com/ interesting.
8.Me from elsewhere regarding why giving your life is opposite in Christian/Muslim faiths
9.The general policy from Muslim history seems to be of allowing non-Muslims to live as long as they are submissive to them. Basically Sharia law prohibits the expansion of Christianity (proselytizing is illegal along with building new churches). Google "Pact of Umar" for a idea of Sharia law. I've always though of this as a parallel to what Lincoln wanted to do with slavery which is ban it from any new state (thus no expansion) and then work for getting it banned in the old states legally. Of course the south wouldn't go along with that because that which cannot grow will die and they knew it.
...And just in case you think this Muslim kill the infidel thing is new. We now have a Muslim senator who took his oath of office with his hand on a Koran owned by Thomas Jefferson saying how "visionary" Jefferson was to have one. Well http://www.usvetdsp.com/jan07/jeff_quran.htm I don't vouch for this site but I DO VOUCH FOR THE FACTS ON THIS PAGE HAVING LEARNED IT ELSEWHERE AND RECOMMEND EVERYONE READING IT. Can you say "revisionist history"?
Why didn't we have problems for so long then?
Britain was doing the same elsewhere.
Be aware I only looked up all the web pages to get specifics, I already knew the general facts from other sources. Believe me I could go on ESPECIALLY with facts about Israel and their relationship with Islam. I read this a while back and it was quite interesting http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_mandate_grand_mufti.php . I've also seen live footage of him shaking Hitler's hand...joy...not...
Hope I helped
.OOOh, OOOh I almost forgot Farfour! Shame Gerbil How could you do that! http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,287423,00.html
Last edited:
Arkanjel
New Member
Arrrgh, I could write for hours on Islam (even though I don't want to T_T Gerbil... compulsion... disorder.) First let me say that there are some good things about Islam. Care for the poor is one of their "Pillars". Many (more secular) Muslims read "Qur'an" verses that call for killing as "spiritual" not physical, but, when you get into the actual doctrine, as evidenced by Mohammed's life itself, that just isn't the truth. If Christ is our example of how to live he never went on the warpath, but, Mohammed did, and it was bloody. Much is said about his sparing of the people of Mecca, but, that was an exception not the rule of his way. They were his friends who had actually rejected him earlier.
Correct, but, I'll be more specific. Unlike the Bible (which was written by many people, but, inspired and put together by God) the Koran was solely Mohammed's words. Meaning it all came from one earthly source. There are, however, many different denominations of Islam with different interpretations and beliefs which give you the same confusion as the Christian denominations have. Much of the split resulted from the fact Mohammed left no clear successor. Lots of Muslims also don't recognize the Koran written in any other language than the original Arabic as being the "Koran" either. (quick google http://lexicorient.com/e.o/koran.htm ). In other words they read it in it's original language. You also have to consider the "Hadith" which is the companion to the Koran. In the Koran it says that whatever the prophet says is the truth. The Hadith is the collected sayings of the prophet as verified by multiple sources. So if you believe those sources are accurate you must believe the Hadith too.
As far as Christ goes I have always found this verse comparison to be the most illuminating to the relationship between Christians and Muslims. Actually I thought there was a even better Koran verse (sura), but, I cannot find it. The below verses are from here http://quod.lib.umich.edu/k/koran/ ,but ,it was just a quick google. I put in son and Allah as search words for this result.
Koran:
[4.171] O followers of the Book! do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak (lies) against Allah, but (speak) the truth; the Messiah, Isa son of Marium is only an apostle of Allah and His Word which He communicated to Marium and a spirit from Him; believe therefore in Allah and His apostles, and say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one God; far be It from His glory that He should have a son, whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His, and Allah is sufficient for a Protector.
Bible:
1John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father...
I realize that any non-Christian might be defined as "anti-Christ", but, thats not my point. Originally Mohammed was teaching to do like the people of the book(Jews/Christians), but, something must have ticked him off because that changed. Islam was conceived to correct the Jews and Christians who where given the word of God, but, profaned it. Unlike Christianity that is the fulfillment of Judaism therefore all that came before was correct. My point is I don't know of any other religion that SPECIFICALLY names another religion and was created to SPECIFICALLY to correct that religion's mistakes. This is why Christians/Jews will never have lasting peace with them.
Also while I'm at it...
4.157 And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the apostle of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.
I've gotten a lot of info in the past from watching the Zola Levett show. Zola died a while back though (got promoted as he said it) so the show's future is up in the air. Still some of the old shows are here http://www.levitt.tv/#archives. I trust and HIGHLY recommend watching the ones where Zola interviewed some ex-Muslims who became Christians. (I don't know about your site so cannot say). I've also read http://www.amazon.com/Unveiling-Isl...6463268?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1189088230&sr=1-1 which I like (and i've seen Caner speaking at a church on tv too which I liked). Trying to get around to reading more of the actual Koran myself, that and more about Mohammed's life itself... Mein Kampf too (and no I am not kidding).
Other things I've picked up some of which you may want to validate...
1.Mohammed originally thought his visions (yes he had episodes not unlike a epileptic) were given to him by the devil until his wife convinced him otherwise.
2.Mohammed consummated a marriage to a 9 year old (Aisha).
3.Mohammed received special compensation from Allah to marry more wives than the rule he himself made allowed.
4.The yellow star worn by the Jews was conceived of during the Ottoman rule not the Nazi's.
5.Islamic pictures often feature the moon. This is because when Mohammed took Mecca he destroyed all the idols they had except a black stone which was reported to have fallen from the sky and was used in the worship of a Moon Goddess. The same stone is now part of the wall of Ka'bah in Mecca.
6.There is a Islamic concept of allowing lying to non-Muslims which makes any peace treaty worthless. You can lie to your wife too Not to misrepresnt it there are more Koran suras that forbid it in other situations.
7.Muslim teachings in the Koran forbade the teaching of women and say their word is half the value of a man. A quick Google http://womensassistance.com/ interesting.
8.Me from elsewhere regarding why giving your life is opposite in Christian/Muslim faiths
9.The general policy from Muslim history seems to be of allowing non-Muslims to live as long as they are submissive to them. Basically Sharia law prohibits the expansion of Christianity (proselytizing is illegal along with building new churches). Google "Pact of Umar" for a idea of Sharia law. I've always though of this as a parallel to what Lincoln wanted to do with slavery which is ban it from any new state (thus no expansion) and then work for getting it banned in the old states legally. Of course the south wouldn't go along with that because that which cannot grow will die and they knew it.
...And just in case you think this Muslim kill the infidel thing is new. We now have a Muslim senator who took his oath of office with his hand on a Koran owned by Thomas Jefferson saying how "visionary" Jefferson was to have one. Well http://www.usvetdsp.com/jan07/jeff_quran.htm I don't vouch for this site but I DO VOUCH FOR THE FACTS ON THIS PAGE HAVING LEARNED IT ELSEWHERE AND RECOMMEND EVERYONE READING IT. Can you say "revisionist history"?
Why didn't we have problems for so long then?
Britain was doing the same elsewhere.
Be aware I only looked up all the web pages to get specifics, I already knew the general facts from other sources. Believe me I could go on ESPECIALLY with facts about Israel and their relationship with Islam. I read this a while back and it was quite interesting http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_mandate_grand_mufti.php . I've also seen live footage of him shaking Hitler's hand...joy...not...
Hope I helped
OOOh, OOOh I almost forgot Farfour! Shame Gerbil How could you do that! http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,287423,00.html
/standing ovation
Well Done, many good things in there.
As for
Ive also read that the "spirits" that passed along the koran to him were commonly called jinns, where we get our word genie, also known to us as demons.
Talk amongst yourselves...Im getting forklempt....
ChickenSoup
Banned
NOW YOU'VE DONE IT! YOU'VE STARTED ANOTHER GERBIL RANT-PAGE! =p
OH NOES!!!
dorkelf
Active Member
I found the following in a Wikipedia article on Mr. Missler:
"According to Temple University Professor William Alnor, Chuck Missler has admitted plagiarizing a portion of Miami University Professor Edwin Yamauchi's 1982 book Foes From the Northern Frontier in his own 1992 book The Magog Factor (co-written by Hal Lindsey).[3] This act of plagiarism was caught by the LA Times ("Question of Attribution" July 30, 1992, by Roy Rivenburg)."
Now...I don't think the above, if true, makes Mr. Missler a bad or ungodly person. But I think every individual reader should be able to decide for themselves what they think of Mr. Missler and whether they believe or can trust what he writes. In order to allow readers to make that kind of decision, I think Mr. Missler should not only encourage them to examine scripture - which is an applaudable notion - but also to examine himself, his beliefs and the sources of information he uses or quotes. Unfortunately, I had to go far beyond Mr. Missler's website to find information on what Mr. Missler believes beyond the 'inerrancy of scripture', and to find the primary source of his above-linked article. The average reader would have a hard time doing the kind of research I had to do to gather this important information. So for that reason I wouldn't be able to recommend this site to others without strong reservations. I'm glad Arkanjel that you find these articles to be a personal blessing, and although I do not interpret scripture as the Bereans do I would never tell you to do otherwise.
Paul