Jesus, the Spotted Lamb

T

timor

New Member
Jesus is often referred to as "the Lamb of God". His job was to live a sinless life on earth, and then take upon the sins of the world and die with them so that others could go to heaven. For this reason, the Jewish religion traditionally sacrificed perfect, spotless lambs in atonement for their sins, looking forward to the Christ. These spotless lambs, which symbolized purity from sin, paid the price of blood for their sacrificer's sins.

However, the problem of Jesus' sufficiency as a sacrifice is now called into question.

Regardless of whether Jesus lived a sinless life, during his time on the cross, and at the very least, at the moment of his death, Jesus had all the sins of the world on his shoulders. Suddenly, this sinless life had sin thrown upon it.

Yet amazingly, Jesus is somehow able to avoid the normal punishment for sin? After all, according to the Bible, the wages of sin is death - going even further, Jesus could not have even died had he not had any sin. This is no problem for everyone else in the world, for "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" and thus are subject to death (and without atonement, Hell) Yet how is Jesus able to escape the punishment of Hell that all others who die with sin face?

One may point to the lamb, yet the lamb 1) stayed dead when it was killed, and 2) was still spotless at its time of death. The same cannot be said for Jesus, who was quite spotted, indeed drenched in sin, at the time he gave up his spirit to the Father.

While the idea of a scapegoat is questionable, the idea of a lamb's worth in atonement is much more feasable than Jesus'. Jesus, when he was sacrificed, was not spotless, and thus should not have been acceptable. Furthermore, he apparently got a "Get out of Hell Free" card due to his divine nature - fair? I think not. After all, if his divinity was all that was needed to save him from the fires of Hell, neither a sinless life nor even a sacrifice at all would be needed, as even the power to smash Hell would be well within his "omnipotent" sovereignty.

How, then, did Jesus pay the price for your sins?
 
The circular logic to make Jesus imperfect because he carried with him the sins of the world is logic incorrectly applied. He chose to carry the burden of consequences for our sinning. He died because we sinned, not because he sinned.

If you were charged and found guilty of theft and ordered to repay all that you have stollen and somebody came up and paid your debt if full, does that mean they committed the crime, or any crime for that matter? No, it just means they were willing to bear the consequences of your crime.
 
Interesting topic and interesting points. But first, Jesus did die on the cross because the bible and the witnesses of the time tells us so. They even pierced His side to verify He was dead.

What if, Jesus was still spotless when He died. What if He didn't take on the burdeon of sin, but became the spotless sacrifical lamb who was offered to attone for our sins in accordance to the Jewish law?

Also, (I don't have time this minute to look it up.) But doesn't the bible say that He descended into hell? Or is that just an interpretive creed? If anything Jesus went through some massive torture and punishment even before death due to his beatings, those thorns, having his weary body forced to carry the cross, being nailed to the cross, and even having the rough wood aggitating his already sore wounds. Even when He asked for a drink, he was given vinegar. So its clear that He did at least suffer earthly punishment. But what of hell? Does the bible say Jesus descended into hell?

I'll look up this when I get home. Gotta run.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]But doesn't the bible say that He descended into hell?
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Kind of. He went down to what as a whole might be called hell although I am not sure what to call it as a whole. But there was hell hell and there was Avrahams bosom. He went to Avrahams bosom to I believe it says take captivity captive. The people who had died before Yeshua died were only covered and not cleansed. Yeshua came to cleanse and so he went to take those in Avrahams bosom to the third heaven.
 
My logic is not circular.

Now, if what you say is true, that Jesus did not truly take on the sins, but only suffered the consequences, you may have a point. I'll have to check it out.

However, to say that he paid our debt in full makes absolutely no sense. Why does he get off with three days, while our sins cannot be purged by ourselves in an eternity of punishment?

Then again, as I pointed out, the fact that he died shows that he must have sinned, or had sin in him, does it not? Or is death an inherent by-product of Original Sin, and is there either way? If that is so, I rescind that point.

I'd also like to point out informally that it really makes no sense that a perfectly just being would cast the punishment of every single person who ever has lived, is living, and will live, onto one person, whereas a judge in our day would be thrown out of his office for giving the consequences of even the lightest criminals to an innocent passerby.
 
Jesus chose to die God didnt make Jesus get on the cross and die for us Jesus chose to pay for our sins

Cave Troll
 
u all forget that Jesus was God in the flesh, and technically God can do watever he wishs if he chooses to go to hell for a 3 day vacation thats his business. and Peon ur the only good defense here that ive really noticed on this topic
 
Then Atown, why can't God simply, out of his loving benevolence, simply scratch all our sins and let us go to Heaven? Remember, God is not willing than any should perish! Most Christians say that God is incapable of being around sin, which is why he cannot do that, which flatly contradicts what you said.
 
Ok u also forget another thing. 1. think hypothetically a person named bob was told not to go across the street but did anyways. when bobs dad found out he was across the street he went across and bruaght him home. now since bob disobeyd his dad, therefor the dad punished bob, YET he forgave bob. so in other words God does erase our sins but we still have punishment we have to do. 2. imagin a chain with 3 knots in it the top of the knot is God, middle one is sin and 3rd knot is us, the middle knot serperates us from God since God cannot and will not be near sin. Jesus' sacrifice untangled the middle knot so we can be fully conected with God.
 
Dude, your metaphors really have absolutely no relevance in this discussion. Your #1 seems to suggest purgatory, and I am sure only Leo and possibly Rand will agree with you on that point - it isn't biblical. #2 is just silly - sorry, but it really serves no purpose other than sounding pretty.

You have explained nothing.
 
Jesus sacrifice was the perfect atoning sacrifice that would re-unite Gods people with Him.

Just as the sacrificial lamb did not actually take on the sins of the person offering the sacrifice, it is the same with Jesus.

The sacrifice was ment to be something that was close to you, and something that you personally owned.

An analagy i can think of right now is, If you barrow 5 bucks from a friend, no biggy. now if some random person you did not know went up to your friend and repaid your debt. Would he be responible for barrowing the 5 bucks, or for paying it? he just paided it, same thing Jesus did, He lived a sinless life, and so in-order for us to become closer with the Father, Jesus was willing to give it all up, so that we may come to Him.
 
uh dude yes my point 1. is biblical in some and or most aspects, in the bible does it say keep sinning and keep getting forgiveing? no it doesnt. yes we will fall, but God forgives us and its not only a personal relationship its a LIFE STYLE, and point 2. i guess i would have to agree with u on.:D BUT the major point here is u say Jesus died with the worlds sins and death is punishment for sin. YET you forget that Jesus ROSE FROM DA DEAD with all his glory and death had no hold over him THEREFOR HE GIVES US THE POWER OVER DEATH AS WELL AND SO WE CAN LIVE ENTERNALY WITH GOD. TAKE THAT TIMOR. most credit for my post goes to a good friend who reminded me of the basics of christianity.
 
da dead? lets try to atleast act like we have some knowledge to our self. and use a larger vocabulary
 
srry lion i was to excited bout trashin timor theory
 
God sent Jesus Christ the messiah to die in our place.  Jesus defeated sin and death and rose from the grave.  You see??  Jesus died for our sins, but has risen and went to Heaven.  Thats why he is not where most people go when they die with sin.

BTW lion lets game sometime my name on WC3 is "Daddy-X"
 
Atown, you've trashed nothing but your name.

Please, step back, re-read what you posted, and think about it. I really should have to do very little.

Lion, what made Jesus the perfect sacrifice?

See, I've heard all of these things that make Jesus special, but they really don't. He lived a sinless life (unprovable, but let's assume its true). Well, at the time of his death, he carried the weight and punishment of all the sins of the world - those sins became his. He rose from the dead - big deal, so did Lazarus and bunch of other fellows.
 
bunch of others?? like who?  and
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Yet amazingly, Jesus is somehow able to avoid the normal punishment for sin? After all, according to the Bible, the wages of sin is death - going even further, Jesus could not have even died had he not had any sin. This is no problem for everyone else in the world, for "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" and thus are subject to death (and without atonement, Hell) Yet how is Jesus able to escape the punishment of Hell that all others who die with sin face?
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u just said that wages of sin are death so Jesus did die for the sins of the world, and Conquered them. and am i not being clear or enough or are u dense? no offense

and quick question for u, uve been here for a while i will assume and y u keep comin back here? i mean at this point i have trouble believeing ur a christian yet u post stuff like this and expect ur own faith to be killed? asuming ur not a christian after nearly 500 posts and noone cares wat u think?? how sad either way.
 
lol now u come ccgr, i was hoping u could help out just a little bit more like u did on the eziekel prophecy topic
 
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